Do we really respect each other's beliefs?

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Originally Posted by Dori

So, in other words, you always show consideration for a person's right to hold a belief that is different from your own, but not necessarily the belief itself? Shouldn't the title of the topic then be switched to "Do we really respet each other's right to hold beliefs different from our own?"

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Well, I don't think this can be made undone now. But that was my point all along, maybe I didn't express it correctly.

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Originally Posted by Nossa

Well, I don't think this can be made undone now. But that was my point all along, maybe I didn't express it correctly.

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Nossa.. I think some people just like to argue semantics, which you are studying at the moment, right? :D this arguing avoids answering relevant questions!:D

but I agree we have to respect others rights to have opinions and beliefs, but the actual belief we don't have to respect... I love a good argument, but one doesn't have to be offensive... or make personal attacks that have no relevancy to what is being discussed.. we had a very interesting discussion recently on "Why It's so hard to believe in God".. Very heated I do believe, though never too personal or offensive, and I had a lot of fun with it, and whether I ultimately changed my mind in the slightest, it is still always interesting and quite fun!

but as stated before, if one is so sure of their beliefs that any argument against them is deemed offensive and a personal attack, then they should keep them to themself, and not post them on an online forum to discuss, for not everyone is going to agree...

but respect is essential, I agree... respecting everyone else's right to have beliefs...

cheers

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Originally Posted by Nossa

Well, I'm not sure if you were directing this to me, but I was generaly speaking when I started this thread.

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No. It was not directed against you in particular.

Perhaps there is a need to be a section in this forum here where you can air your beliefs only and is not challenged.

Perhaps people could start threads like

"Please don't challenge my beliefs"...


But those threads will die out in an instant...I guess...but worth a try.

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I think the problems are not with religions, they are with people following them.

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There are problems with religions itself. But no believer will accept that and thus...you can blame it on people....

and to large extend you can do this..

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

Nossa.. I think some people just like to argue semantics, which you are studying at the moment, right? :D this arguing avoids answering relevant questions!:D

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I was just trying to get a more clear understanding of what he was trying to say. :p

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Perhaps people could start threads like

"Please don't challenge my beliefs"...


But those threads will die out in an instant...I guess...but worth a try.

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lol...yup I can imagine that. Again, I'm really not against discussion, and opposing opinions is not wrong, just being agressive is the thing I hate about some people. As I said, I've seen it way too much in my life, and it WAS bad.

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There are problems with religions itself. But no believer will accept that and thus...you can blame it on people....

and to large extend you can do this

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Well, that is your opinion..and since we're in THIS thread..I'm gonna respect it :p lol
But I do think that sometimes, and in certain aspects of religion, people take things in a wrong way, and act accordingly. I won't talk about my religion cuz this is not about Islam, but I know first hand how some people, who know nothing about Islam, can make horrible mistakes in its name, and claim that the religion made it. It's the same as certain philosophies, when people over the ages stray from the original principle, and then blame the philosopher for it. It's just an opinion I have...you don't have to agree with me.

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

Nossa.. I think some people just like to argue semantics, which you are studying at the moment, right?

Yeah, and I was trying SO hard to forget this face :bawling:

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but respect is essential, I agree... respecting everyone else's right to have beliefs...

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Glad you understood what I meant :D

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Originally Posted by Dori

I was just trying to get a more clear understanding of what he was trying to say. :p

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*points to her signature* No worries :D

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Originally Posted by Nossa

but I know first hand how some people, who nothing about Islam, can make horrible mistakes in its names, and claim that the religion made it.

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I've seen the same with Christianity, and by some Christians themselves. ;)

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I've seen the same with Christianity, and by some Christians themselves. ;)

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Yeah I know. The people I was talking about claim to be Muslims too. If it wasn't for the 'no politics' rule of the forum, I'd have named some of them.

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Originally Posted by Nossa

lol...yup I can imagine that. Again, I'm really not against discussion, and opposing opinions is not wrong, just being agressive is the thing I hate about some people.

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What about passionate?

I believe if you want to debate something then you need to be passionate about it?

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Well, that is your opinion..and since we're in THIS thread..I'm gonna respect it :p lol

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As I said no believer would accept anything wrong with their religion. If they did then they would not be following it.

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But I do think that sometimes, and in certain aspects of religion, people take things in a wrong way, and act accordingly.

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Yes. As always. But people will always do this because each individual sees the world slightly differently.

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I won't talk about my religion cuz this is not about Islam, but I know first hand how some people, who know nothing about Islam, can make horrible mistakes in its name, and claim that the religion made it. It's the same as certain philosophies, when people over the ages stray from the original principle, and then blame the philosopher for it. It's just an opinion I have...you don't have to agree with me.

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Sometimes you need to question the idealogy. If you don't then you are prisoned by it. Yes. even your most cherished ideals needs to be questioned.

If humanity did not do this it would be still living in caves...and be at the mercy of the elements...

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Yes. As always. But people will always do this because each individual sees the world slightly differently.

Sometimes you need to question the idealogy. If you don't then you are prisoned by it. Yes. even your most cherished ideals needs to be questioned.

If humanity did not do this it would be still living in caves...and be at the mercy of the elements...

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Well, there certain things, that even by common sense are agreed upon and can only be thought of differently if someone has some hidden motives. I mean as far as killing people goes for instance, you can't get it 'slightly different' from the reality of it. Killing innocent people is wrong. Period.
Hope you get what I mean.

As for questioning your ideals,well, how can they be ideals and values if they're questionable (either they were good or bad, cuz that's relative). Now I think that the only reason why someone questions his/her ideals is when they don't have a proof, don't understand what they're talking about or just following a trend or something. Questioning and doubting is good, but if you take for granted and idea, and you have a certain proof (logical that is) that it's true, why can't you just...well take it for granted then? You know what I mean?
I know, and even if I might not agree entirely, that beliefs and religions now are relative. I do believe that you don't need to be religious to be a good person, but sometimes this bounces back on the religious ones and some wonder, then why do you need to have a religion at all? I think it's always gonna stay debatable.

One last thing, being passionate is a must in a discussion or else you're NOT gonna get anything out of it, plus if someone discusses something he believes in without passion, I'd die of boredom. Passion doesn't mean being aggresive though, at least this is how I preceive it.

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Originally Posted by Nossa

Killing innocent people is wrong. Period.

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Then you have in the scriptures "war is proscribed for you"...

Your view of the world is shaped by how you understand this world, your experiences and your surroundings.

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As for questioning your ideals,well, how can they be ideals and values if they're questionable (either they were good or bad, cuz that's relative).

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Ideals is constantly being shaped and reformed. It is the nature of humanity. When ideals fails us we just abandon them and find new ones...

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One last thing, being passionate is a must in a discussion or else you're NOT gonna get anything out of it, plus if someone discusses something he believes in without passion, I'd die of boredom. Passion doesn't mean being aggresive though, at least this is how I preceive it.

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Mistake not passion for agression?.

And no you don't have to be agressive to be highly critical.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I've seen the same with Christianity, and by some Christians themselves. ;)

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And I encounter the same ill-perceived version of judaism which would have been comic had it historically not proved to have been rather tragic. (I am not a believer so not that it 'religiously' gets me, but once I discussed with my mother how amazing are the misconceptions people have about our... I cannot say 'our religion' given that I come from very atheist home, being probably the third or fourth atheist generation - and I myself have purely academic and cultural interest in that part of my heritage - but you get what I mean.)

The concept of 'chosen nation' is entirely misinterpreted outside of judaism and it never had anything to do with any superiority or BS of the kind "Protocoles of the Elders of Zion"-ish opinions around.
The concept of 'salvation', 'heaven' and 'hell' are all misinterpreted and in such forms do not exist in judaism. No, you won't rot in hell if you aren't Jewish, and it's significantly easier for you to get to "heaven" than for a Jewish person, believe it or not.
The concept of 'Messiah' is totally misunderstood, to a point where it is laughable, just as Jews are totally misunderstood about why they don't accept Jesus Christ to have been Messiah.
Tanakh has been poorly translated into other languages, with numerous errors ("virgin" which was supposed to give birth to Messiah in original is not "virgin", and such stuff :D) which have been repeating constantly.
Numerous religions have emerged practically based on and built upon those bad translations who now accuse Jews of being inconsistent and of not accepting their 'manipulated' versions of the original dogma.
And so on, and so on...

Every religion, on a popular level, gets to be totally misinterpreted, especially outside of areas where it is dominant religion. It is normal. Getting offended and upset over that will get you nowhere.

But, if you - as I elaborated in my lenghty post on the page above - willingly come to a place where religion is debated, then you 'detach' yourself emotionally from your firm belief that your religion is one and only, and debate things based on arguments and logic, and you realise that you are likely to meet people with many misconceptions about your religion.
Unless they aren't your fear, but you actually fear those without misconceptions, but with counter-arguments... :D THAT is, from my experience, what most people have problem with, not the fact that somebody is infamiliar with something. People don't have half as much problem clearing the misconceptions as debating with knowledgeable individuals who know, but don't agree and wish to present their different views.

Well, if one has problem with that - one stays off places where that is discussed, and cheerfully sings their favourite song unburdened with such discussions. :D

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Originally Posted by Anastasija

"virgin" which was supposed to give birth to Messiah in original is not "virgin", and such stuff

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I haven't heard that from anyone except for you. Where did you hear it?

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Originally Posted by Nossa

Do we really respect each other's beliefs?

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Asslamu Alikum ,
look Nossa this forum is considered to be a small world .Everything that happens in the world happens here in the Forum.
I mean that we read & hear everyday a lot of accidents show how people disrespect religions, disrespect other's beliefs .So you must see here some of disrespect, it is ordinary ,and some people don't know how to respect !
since we have to discuss about religions and to know each other there is a certain way of asking and talking
you can ask and discuss without this bad way , and people will get your points very well.
Finally i think that everyone want to post here "Religious Forum" should read this thread , so as to avoid these problems.:)
Thank you

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Then you have in the scriptures "war is proscribed for you"...

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I'm sorry, I'm not following here. War isn't the same as killing people for kicks. Could you elaborate more, please?

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Mistake not passion for agression?
And no you don't have to be agressive to be highly critical .

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Yes, that's what I mean. You already said it, one doesn't have to be agressive to be passionate. I highly respect anyone who's passionate about a belief, even if it was opposing my own.