Why is God so difficult to believe in?

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Originally Posted by El Viejo

Having done it myself, I can understand how a person can simply latch onto 'faith,' also known as the proof of things unseen. It's comforting. When there's darkness all around it's nice to imagine that you've got a lantern and can see everything as it is. The flat earth. The garden of Eden. The great white throne. It's nice to have that conviction that all the other religions, and even the other sects of your own religion, are simply wrong and you'll be ok in the great by and by.

The real world is full of scary unknowns, but we're piecing it together slowly, usually to the chagrin of the religious. They like to 'challenge' science and pooh pooh findings as merely theories, although they're perfectly happy when, thanks to a theory, they can get a vaccination, fly to a destination, use a cell phone, or keep their food cold and unspoiled. They don't mind that the theories are imperfect and will be updated. They forget that their equally zealous and informed forbears considered the knowledge and technology they use so casually, that they'd be at least sorely inconvenienced without, to be the work of Satan himself.

People are naturally curious. We are incorrigible pickers-apart and restless toolmakers. Knowledge will continue to increase, and religion will continue to back away from the light, to take refuge in areas of the unknown, or at least unknown to the majority. It will continue to govern by fear. Fear of making the wrong decision. Fear of irritating God. Fear of paying for it in Hell. Eventually the swath of knowledge will leave no room except for the functional portions of their belief--whatever those might prove to be.

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so Morten... these scientific theories that are proven, are almost always eventually disproven.... which explains why science is always changing... secondly general science may have some ideas that can be tested and measure up, which doesn't mean they are proven, but seem to fit the observed phenomena...

what i was quite clear in saying above, is that science has no answers as to the "why" or "how" we exist... how it began? whether it did even begin? why does anything exist? how did it appear in the universe? how did the universe appear? science is hopelessly lost in all these areas... and you tell me where it gives even an attempt at answering... so in terms of universal questions science is entirely irrelevant and useless.. for the terms of science can't even begin to comprehend or understand infinite and timeless... for with these things the very notion of science is useless and is destroyed... secondly even the fact that we've given non human things human definitions invalidates all of science... you speak of gravity, but again it is just another human defined term, depending upon human created numbers and spatial and temporal awareness and creations.... so we have invented a system, and now we make your supposed proven laws about how they exist, what they are... Oh, the hypocrisy!... but again deride me for my faith...

and to Morten and El Viejo... you seem to have the misguided idea that I support or even believe in organised religion.. that my idea of god, is an Abrahamic personal god, with human characteristics, that I think of places like the garden of eden being real, that I think heaven is a human experience, relatable to the same plane of existence we are in now... and then that I have a sect, a religion and I judge all others wrong because of it...

well, maybe you should have taken the time to read some of my post... not once do I say I believe in organised religion, nor support it for the most part... not once did I say I believe in a superhuman creator god, who exists in a human defined way... not once did I say anyone is entirely wrong within any religion... for I believe that every path in life has it's own merits... even science.... but you make your assumptions and don't pay attention to what I believe, lump me and every other believer of something different in with every organised religion... and fear is the governor of my life?????? I don't believe in heaven and hell... not in any definable sense... heaven and hell are what you make of your own life and death... not governed by some external judge of all, not by a god...

so again, criticize me, though you are ignorant of what I think or believe... you must have assumed the above, right? when you were talking about fear, the disappearance of religion, my belief in the garden of eden, a great white throne, a god who saves or damns people... hmmmmm... interesting... I didn't even know myself I believed this until you so kindly helped me to understand....

but you follow your science that will never answer any of the most fundamental questions to existence and non existence... and being and non being.... to what is timeless and infinite... you live in your temporal and spatial world and never find the beauty of going beyond this... or thinking beyond the cramped confines of the scientifically styled and cynical mind....
it is your choice and I respect that... but maybe you could respect everyone else's choice to believe in something more, or something else...

And again, trumping all attempts of yours to classify me as another blind follower of any organised religion, I say my belief is that everything is nothing, and nothing is everything... for in human terms, with human definitions, that is the only way to put it.... I have faith in love... timeless and infinite love... maybe you should try it...

I believe with all my heart that God exists. El Viejo you say you have done it yourself, but you have not done it, not done everything. Religion is not always true religion, but don't consider all of it to be delusional. True religion is the spirituality. Island climber doesn't believe in one religion or denomination, more true than the rest. As far as I can tell, he/she believes mainly in love. That is my god, that is my religion, nothing more than that, anything developed further is based on my excursion into, and/or my recreation of a system of spirituality.

Also, not all religion is the same-- not all religion worships love, not all religion propagates love, not all religion propagates liberation, some religions propagate ignorance, desire, attachment to material engagement; such religion is not spiritual at all, but only material in nature. What island climber said about getting incredibly far along the path of hopeless and complete delusion...the reason for this is that material engagement will lead us to ignorance and despair. My friend there is a light. It shines above us, and we are blind to it. Through meditation and spirituality, we can become aware of this light. But there's a lot of darkness it must shine through to get to us.

If someone is saved, as in, saved from "Hell," for which I will substitute ignorance and despair, then they have nothing to do with fear, if they are saved truly. For salvation is only in love.

Science concerns knowledge of the material, and knowledge of physical nature. Yet it ignores the spiritual aspect, and thus creates a great imbalance. Although, this has been the path of science until now. There are many scientists who believe in God. Or at least, who profess they do. I am not saying that professing to believe in god is equivalent to believing, nor to reaping any kind of benefit from it, that is, any kind of goodness, or living a spiritually wholesome life. Of course these things are not related. Yet...what is the point of arguing. What you are propagating is limited view. You are denying the existence of something...yet it is considered to be everything, the non-dualistic source...you do not believe in more fundamental layers of being, or am I incorrect? You do not believe in a non-dualistic source of love for our being?

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

...trumping all attempts of yours to classify me as another blind follower of any organised religion, I say my belief is that everything is nothing, and nothing is everything... for in human terms, with human definitions, that is the only way to put it.... I have faith in love... timeless and infinite love... maybe you should try it...

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You assumed that my quoting you meant that I was addressing you personally, whereas I was addressing the faithful in general. You are included, of course, but I chose your remarks because they are representative of the religion side of the argument; that is, that science is imperfect, belief is superior, and Escheresque incantations (e.g. 'everything is nothing and nothing is everything') hold it all together.

Back to the original question, "Why is God so difficult to believe in?" it depends on how one defines God. If by "God" one means the Ancient of Days, the guy on the Great White Throne, the reasons are different than if one sees him, for example, as the invisible rules that govern the behavior of the universe. In the latter case the only difficulty is in regarding God as a person.

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Originally Posted by El Viejo

You assumed that my quoting you meant that I was addressing you personally, whereas I was addressing the faithful in general. You are included, of course, but I chose your remarks because they are representative of the religion side of the argument; that is, that science is imperfect, belief is superior, and Escheresque incantations (e.g. 'everything is nothing and nothing is everything') hold it all together.

Back to the original question, "Why is God so difficult to believe in?" it depends on how one defines God. If by "God" one means the Ancient of Days, the guy on the Great White Throne, the reasons are different than if one sees him, for example, as the invisible rules that govern the behavior of the universe. In the latter case the only difficulty is in regarding God as a person.

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I didn't say that those words or incantations as you call them hold it all together, I don't believe human words or terms or forms or numbers, define anything on an infinite and timeless scale... for they all necessarily fall apart... and this is why it is so much more difficult to believe than in the human invention of science and math...

and far from being imperfect, I believe science is entirely false and falls apart completely when held up beside an infinite light... if only for the fact we invented it, we created it, we made up terms and definitions and try to explain the universe with them... but it all falls apart, for human terms and definitions are locked within a temporal and spatial box... sure they can be handy for while we're alive here on earth, with all our materialism and obsession with ourselves, but on a timeless, infinite scale, they are meaningless... useless... and again I have no desire to regard god as a person, I have no desire to even use the term god, just to put it in words sure, same with my "escheresque" statement about everything is nothing, nothing is everything.... it is just a way to get the beginnings of an idea of what infinite and timeless really means... and they themselves are terms created by us so even they fall apart... only conscious awareness can remain, only essence, only faith, only love...

plus I don't see any invisible rules governing the universe... and if my remarks are representative of the religious argument in general, then why did you not address anything that I actually said, you addressed what appeared to be what you think I believe and do so again now, without really following or understanding what I said... I don't think in terms of god and no god, or existence and non existence, life and death, and afterlife, heaven and hell, belief and non belief... with meditation (and it is my own form of meditation arrived at through studying buddhism, hinduism, taoism, even abrahamic mysticism) you can arrive at a place where human definition falls apart...

please do explain the way in which science explains and has laws for how this happens... meditation and all... passing from this existence for however fleeting a moment... please explain the way in which science says we exist and the why and even the how... in fact just the how... for in any discussion of believing or not believing in some kind of form of godhead science is irrelevant unless it can disprove this, or at least offer some plausible or even non plausible idea of its own as to why and how there is existence, there is the universe, there is thought... please do enlighten me....

Just curious: Have any of y'all ever changed your minds by reading these forums? I've been reading these things for a couple of years and I've never seen anyone say, "Ok, you're right, god exists." Or, "Maybe I've been a little hasty in placing my faith in this or that god." It seems like we're only trying to convince ourselves.

Cheers,
Doug (the Agnostic)

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It seems like we're only trying to convince ourselves.

Cheers,
Doug (the Agnostic)

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There is much truth in that!

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Just curious: Have any of y'all ever changed your minds by reading these forums? I've been reading these things for a couple of years and I've never seen anyone say, "Ok, you're right, god exists." Or, "Maybe I've been a little hasty in placing my faith in this or that god." It seems like we're only trying to convince ourselves.

Cheers,
Doug (the Agnostic)

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:lol: good point... but I do like the discussion or argument or whatever you want to call it... human thoughts and minds are constantly changing, and discussing things like this, whether you change your mind or not, they always introduce to something new or slightly different, a new perspective, light shed in a different manner... maybe you take something from it, or give something to someone else to think about, or add to their collection of ideas, but it is always interesting and enjoyable...


cheers

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Just curious: Have any of y'all ever changed your minds by reading these forums? I've been reading these things for a couple of years and I've never seen anyone say, "Ok, you're right, god exists." Or, "Maybe I've been a little hasty in placing my faith in this or that god." It seems like we're only trying to convince ourselves.

Cheers,
Doug (the Agnostic)

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Wow,that was a very perceptive and profound statement.

With a considerable amount of introspection I think you are probably right.In all of our heart of hearts,none of us really know.Every single one of us believe or disbelieve with a considerable amount of courage.That may very well be what all of us,atheist,the faithful,and the unsure share in common;Boldness in the face of the unknown.

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Originally Posted by NikolaiI

I believe with all my heart that God exists. El Viejo you say you have done it yourself, but you have not done it, not done everything. Religion is not always true religion, but don't consider all of it to be delusional. True religion is the spirituality. ...

Science concerns knowledge of the material, and knowledge of physical nature. Yet it ignores the spiritual aspect, and thus creates a great imbalance.

What you are propagating is limited view. You are denying the existence of something...yet it is considered to be everything, the non-dualistic source...you do not believe in more fundamental layers of being, or am I incorrect? You do not believe in a non-dualistic source of love for our being?

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I've believed a number of things with all my heart, but not all of them turned out to be real. It's a small logical leap to realize that belief does not make a thing so, and to the corollary, that things can be so without our believing them.

A "non-dualistic source of love for our being." I guess you mean a good God without a Satan as a partner or opponent.

No, I do not believe in such a source.

I do believe that we are made of tiny building blocks that array themselves in a seemingly infinite, but still finite number of ways, like magnets, but far more complex. The same bag of blocks holds the pieces that make me, a banana, a star. The interactions of the pieces, and their combinations, are complex beyond our comprehension, except in general terms, although we're making progress.

We like analogies to explain things. It helps if we relate the unknown to something we understand. People needed a way to articulate their sense that the universe had meaning and order that didn't always appear orderly. God, the paternal, mercuric, capricious artisan filled the bill. Analogies are also too often taken beyond their useful limits. That's how we get the idea of a guy on a throne, or limitless, ineffable love.

I do believe in love, but it comes out of us, as we choose, and not from some place else. It can be impressive, but clearly not limitless.

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Just curious: Have any of y'all ever changed your minds by reading these forums? I've been reading these things for a couple of years and I've never seen anyone say, "Ok, you're right, god exists." Or, "Maybe I've been a little hasty in placing my faith in this or that god." It seems like we're only trying to convince ourselves.

Cheers,
Doug (the Agnostic)

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You've got that right. I heard that in a debate the only people whose positions change appreciably are those who were uncommitted to begin with.

It takes time to change a perspective. I didn't become an atheist overnight. I didn't stop seeing homosexuality as a disease or a sin overnight either. Change takes time, and the light bulb really has to want to change.

So in the short term, it would appear that we're trying to convince ourselves, and that's a valid activity. We are also, however, trying to convince one another, which is also a valid activity, but we'd need a longer view to see any results.

People who exchange arguments in good faith put themselves in a position to both change minds and change their own minds.

A friend of mine described a game he and his wife used to play with some other couples they knew. They'd choose a hot topic, divide into opposing teams, and debate the issue for twenty minutes or so. Then they'd change sides and do it again, arguing the opposite view. I've never found anyone to play this game with, and the hard part would be playing in good faith. Forums like this are the closest substitute I can get.

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

I believe science is entirely false and falls apart completely when held up beside an infinite light...

human terms and definitions are locked within a temporal and spatial box...
on a timeless, infinite scale, they are meaningless... useless...

why did you not address anything that I actually said, you addressed what appeared to be what you think I believe and do so again now, without really following or understanding what I said...
... please do enlighten me....

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I don't think I can address anything you actually said, because I don't think you actually said anything. Back to the 'everything is nothing' statement for a moment. I pulled 'Escheresqe' out of my hat, as it were, because your reasoning is much like an Escher drawing. Water flowing uphill, stairs that end up at their own bottom again. Just because something can be imagined, drawn, or articulated does not mean it can be. True, it can 'be' in the delightfully entertaining and comfortable recesses of our minds, and it's fun to go play there, but eventually we have to come out and use stairs that go somewhere, and work with the fact that water goes downhill only. I like to play in my mind too, it's great fun, probably healthy even. But when it comes to understanding how my cell phone works or where my food comes from or what to do about the man collapsing on the sidewalk in front of me, or what happens when I die, I come back outside.

QUOTE=El Viejo;542592]I don't think I can address anything you actually said, because I don't think you actually said anything. Back to the 'everything is nothing' statement for a moment. I pulled 'Escheresqe' out of my hat, as it were, because your reasoning is much like an Escher drawing. Water flowing uphill, stairs that end up at their own bottom again. Just because something can be imagined, drawn, or articulated does not mean it can be. True, it can 'be' in the delightfully entertaining and comfortable recesses of our minds, and it's fun to go play there, but eventually we have to come out and use stairs that go somewhere, and work with the fact that water goes downhill only. I like to play in my mind too, it's great fun, probably healthy even. But when it comes to understanding how my cell phone works or where my food comes from or what to do about the man collapsing on the sidewalk in front of me, or what happens when I die, I come back outside.[/QUOTE]

I understand the Escher reference, but maybe Escher had something of a truth in his drawings of supposed impossibilities, enigmas, paradoxes, whatever you want to call them....

and it is such a matter of great importance to know how a cellphone works,... extraordinary connected to this discussion... food came along long before science.. that was called primitive man.. hunter gatherers.... they weren't too advanced you know, and somehow they survived to spawn our corrupted race of people with no faith in anything they can't see or explain in some way related to math and science.... and so you tell me what happens when you die... tell me outside the recesses of your mind what happens when you die? you say I said nothing... but I did ask you a very specific question that you and every other person who thinks the same way seems to avoid... give me the how and why as explained by science??? tell me about these supposedly:

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tiny building blocks that array themselves in a seemingly infinite, but still finite number of ways, like magnets, but far more complex. The same bag of blocks holds the pieces that make me, a banana, a star. The interactions of the pieces, and their combinations, are complex beyond our comprehension, except in general terms, although we're making progress.

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aren't these, according to you, what we are made of? and how does your science prove this, even the fact they are finite? tell me how you're not just having faith in something that you and science really know nothing at all about? for that's what it sounds like... if everything is made of little finite building blocks than where did they come from, or are they infinite in terms of timeless existence, just not in spatial existence? please explain all this to me? why you're ideas are right , and why they require less faith and are rooted in reality, and please tell me why you're reality rooted ideas (which you haven't explained) on what happens after death are better and require less, supposedly, absurd faith than mine.,.. please, again, I ask you to enlighten me, for if I have been saying nothing, what you have been saying is less than nothing... you're argument consists of telling me I'm not saying anything, rather than refuting, or even challenging what I say, what I believe in... I don't mind at all having my beliefs challenged even torn apart if you can... but to just tell me I'm saying nothing, that's just childish... you selectively choose parts to quote that by themselves don't say much, but altogether it says alot..


lastly I would really like to know how anything is entirely finite... for that matter tell me, with your scientific view how is it possible for there not to be a creator god... for I don't believe in a creator god, but if the world is finite, and we are finite, everything had to have been created by something infinite, everything had to come from somewhere if you like you say everything is finite... but my view in which the true reality behind this illusion, is that there are no beginnings or ends, or definitions, or forms, and everything is infinite and timeless, there is no required creator god...

it is funny how that works for science does kind of necessitate a god of some sort to have gotten the ball rolling... but please actually answer the questions I ask this time... there are quite a few building up now from these posts where I supposedly say nothing... please tell me the truth that science tells about the universe...

cheers

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Just curious: Have any of y'all ever changed your minds by reading these forums? I've been reading these things for a couple of years and I've never seen anyone say, "Ok, you're right, god exists." Or, "Maybe I've been a little hasty in placing my faith in this or that god." It seems like we're only trying to convince ourselves.

Cheers,
Doug (the Agnostic)

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I was a rather devout atheist when I first came to these forums. Ask Red, Pendragon, or....whom else did I clash swords with. I don't remember. Ask PrinceMyshkin, MaryLupin, or others...

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

it is funny how that works for science does kind of necessitate a god of some sort to have gotten the ball rolling... but please actually answer the questions I ask this time... there are quite a few building up now from these posts where I supposedly say nothing... please tell me the truth that science tells about the universe...

cheers

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Your posts are incredibly valuable, incredibly inspiring, and enlightening in fact. I know I am not the only one who thinks so. What you are doing is wonderful, and the words you write are like a beautiful song. I just wanted to say this...to counteract the negativity of someone saying that you didn't say anything. Just want to offer my gratitude.

God Is So Easy To Believe...look Around You!!!