March / Ireland Reading: Dubliners by James Joyce

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Originally Posted by Kent Edwins

I nodded off whist reading "The Ivy League Committee Room" today. I was tired and not really getting it, I guess. But I can nod off while reading anything, so it's no big deal.

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The story makes a lot more sense if you understand Irish history. Not that I claim to be an expert in Irish history by any means. The story makes numerous references to Charles Steward Parnell, the so-called "uncrowned king of Ireland" and a major political figure in Irish history. The date that story happens on is a day in remembrance of him. Joyce is playing on the irony of his character's insouciance about their existence, their political status, who their politician even happens to be. They superficially are engaging in politics, but the characters' central concerns are money and alcohol. All the political expression in the story is superficial, symbolized when they burn up the card with their politico's name on it to use as a cigerrette. This is hammered home when the conservative Crofton goes out stumping for Tierney even though they are of different parties.

In other words, all of this is a far cry from the days of Parnell. Irish politics is in a state of decay as are Irish lives in general in this story. This is emphasized by the lack of coal to relight the fire at the very beginning; they can't afford coal to light a fire. That opening also further symbolizes Irish history as burning out before it ever gets going, this endless reusing of the ashes to offer a little flame that doesn't really do much against the rain and cold, which will inevitably run out and stop burning.

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Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

The story makes a lot more sense if you understand Irish history. Not that I claim to be an expert in Irish history by any means. The story makes numerous references to Charles Steward Parnell, the so-called "uncrowned king of Ireland" and a major political figure in Irish history. The date that story happens on is a day in remembrance of him. Joyce is playing on the irony of his character's insouciance about their existence, their political status, who their politician even happens to be. They superficially are engaging in politics, but the characters' central concerns are money and alcohol. All the political expression in the story is superficial, symbolized when they burn up the card with their politico's name on it to use as a cigerrette. This is hammered home when the conservative Crofton goes out stumping for Tierney even though they are of different parties.

In other words, all of this is a far cry from the days of Parnell. Irish politics is in a state of decay as are Irish lives in general in this story. This is emphasized by the lack of coal to relight the fire at the very beginning; they can't afford coal to light a fire. That opening also further symbolizes Irish history as burning out before it ever gets going, this endless reusing of the ashes to offer a little flame that doesn't really do much against the rain and cold, which will inevitably run out and stop burning.

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Wow, thanks so much, Drkshadow, for writing all this. Now the story makes so much more sense to me. I have not yet re-read it, but I recall that, when I did a few years back, the meaning was vague and eluded me, because I am quite ignorant of the Irish politics in the story. I only had such a vague idea of it. The devices you mention here, such as the fire and the fact they can't afford to light it, and the other symbolism/imagery is quite revealing to me. Now when I re-read the story, I am sure I will have a much better understanding and persepective on it. Thanks again.

Joyce was a Catholic writer. The Trinity is a Catholic symbol which represents a holy union that appears repeatedly in Dubliners and is presented in various forms.

The book is structured into three parts with part one comprising the first three stories, part two the next eight, and part three the next three, with ''The Dead'' being an addition that had not been initially appended to the collection. This structuring was determined by Joyce scholar William Powell Jones in his book James Joyce and the Common Reader*.

"The Sisters'' has an incomplete trinity in the form of two nurses (in Ireland as in Australia, a nurse is addressed as 'sister') and their deceased and rather dissolute brother.

In ''An Encounter'' the narrator sought to form a trio of kids who sought fun by playing hooky. One of the kids shows up but the third never makes it. Thus, a second series of incomplete trinity.

In ''Araby'' there are two sets of trios in the young narrator with his aunt and uncle and the trio of the young lady and what appears to be two suitors.

In ''The Dead'' we see 'Three Graces'. These represent ''those qualities which give charm to nature and to wisdom, love, social intercourse...'' **


The word ''catholic'' means universal. In Joyce's portrayal of Dublin, he portrayed a society that served as microcosm for the universal experience. As a Catholic writer he was concerned with injustice, despair, and disharmony. Note the language that appears throughout the stories:

'no hope', 'faintly', 'darkened', 'corpse', 'paralysis', 'maleficent', 'sinful', and 'deadly'

And all this is just on page one! Just about every other story is replete with similar language.

The book's inital story ''The Sisters'' and its final one ''The Dead'' have one theme in common: death --- again, another Catholic theme.

Yet, one could help but sense a feeling of hope and of ultimate reward. Perhaps of redemptive reward. Yes, still again - another Catholic theme.







* University of Oklahoma Press, 1955, pp 13,14

** Gifford, Don: Joyce Annotated, Univ of Calif Press, 1982, p 118

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Originally Posted by hellsapoppin

The book's inital story ''The Sisters'' and its final one ''The Dead'' have one theme in common: death --- again, another Catholic theme.

Yet, one could help but sense a feeling of hope and of ultimate reward. Perhaps of redemptive reward. Yes, still again - another Catholic theme.

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hellsapoppin:

What is specifically "Catholic" about death? The way it is depicted in the stories? Can you explain?

Could you also explain more ny what you mean when you say that there is a feeling of hope and ultimate reward at the end? In which stories?

I don't mean to challenge your reading, but I felt the exact opposite in many of these stories, there is always a sense of stalemate, paralysis, of going nowhere, and movement that only leads to dead-ends. The only one I haven't read yet is "The Dead." So I am actually rather curious to hear how you came to that very different reading because I wonder if I might be missing something important, especially as a non-Catholic.

How I wish Jones' book was available online. His essay on Dubliners would easily answer your queries.

There never has been a rigid definition of what constitutes a Catholic writer, except for the fact that they have recurrent themes in their works. I mentioned a few previously such as life-and-death, redemption, injustices, and stream of consciousness, suffering, quest for preservation, and various conflicts. They share values, adhere to certain traditions, and seek to learn or to impart wisdom --- all within a Catholic framework.

As for death, you may be familiar with William Cullen Bryant's great poem Thanatopsis { http://www.poetry-archive.com/b/thanatopsis.html } . The title means 'a study of death'. Yet, a reading of it reveals that it is a strong affirmation of life.

In his essay Jones determined that the stories were in stages which reflect growth and maturity. First, early childhood, then adolescence, then adulthood. While the early stories deal with paralysis, dead ends, and seeming hopelessness as you accurately report, the stories gradually evolve into a more positive set of themes. Jones writes, '' 'The Dead' {reveals} a new theme, that of mature love, sympathetically portrayed. The geniality and warmth of the story, in spite of its title, seem to have been intended by the author to lift the collection [that is the earlier set of stories] from its 'special odour of corruption' ... ''

Note the main character in ''The Dead'' is Gabriel. In Catholic teaching he is the Archangel empowered to bring comfort and hope to humanity. Note also how it starts with the word 'Lily' --- the lily symbolizes death and rebirth and is used at Easter to symbolize the hope of heavenly rebirth by Catholics during those holidays.

Other Catholic themes include lapsed Catholics who are those no longer associated with the church and who often succumbed to dissipation. There is the theme of Marianism where nurturing women are portrayed in the stories. Lastly, there is the hope of redemption in ''Grace'' - ''with God's grace, I will rectify this and this. I will set right my accounts''.

Indeed, positivity with hope of redemption is the concluding theme of the stories.

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Originally Posted by hellsapoppin

There never has been a rigid definition of what constitutes a Catholic writer, except for the fact that they have recurrent themes in their works. I mentioned a few previously such as life-and-death, redemption, injustices, and stream of consciousness, suffering, quest for preservation, and various conflicts. They share values, adhere to certain traditions, and seek to learn or to impart wisdom --- all within a Catholic framework.

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I dont think deming these themes as "catholic Themes" Is correct. They are fairly universal and appear in all kinds of literature.

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Note the main character in ''The Dead'' is Gabriel. In Catholic teaching he is the Archangel empowered to bring comfort and hope to humanity.

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Gabriel also happens to be a very common name in Dublin. and possibly was very common at the time Joyce wrote The Dubliners. Surely it would make sense if he was writing a book bases on us Dubs, he would use the names everyone hears daily in and around the city! Personally i dont see the "Catholic theme".

Okay Hells...so we've heard the interpretation from a guy called Jones from you. Why dont you actually tell us what you actually thought of the book.

I attended a couple of Joyce book club meetings in New York about 30 years ago or so. Catholic symbolism was said to be a recurrent theme in his writing. Again, catholic means universal and it is a consensus among Joycian scholars that his books have universal themes. My point in quoting Jones is that I agree with his interpretation.

Yet, it is a fact that interpretations of books can change with the times. In his days Euripedes was thought to be a misogynist because he wrote of women who could think. In modern days he was described as an early feminist because these portrayals.

In my notes above I also quoted Gifford and he lists all the Catholic symbols in Joyce. He specifically identifies Gabriel and Lily as Catholic symbols. Perhaps people today are viewing Joyce in a different light. If anything, that adds immeasurably to the merits of Joyce's work.

Just finished with Dubliners a little bit ago. The Dead was unlike anything I have ever read before! What a tremendous build-up, for one. And I am baffled and moved at the same time as to how effective Joyce can describe even the most mundane events. I admit, I'm no macho guy, and found myself breaking out in tears at the end of the story; more so then I ever have for any other piece of writing. Now I understand why Joyce is widely considered to be one of, if not THE, greatest writer of all time. I'm so glad I read this book! I'm definitely casting my vote for this one as a classic. Joyce is no hack!

I read Dubliners a year and a half ago but I don't remember it too well from then apart from the very basic plot. I've just finished Araby. I loved The Sisters and An Encounter. Is it just me or do I notice a style which would deeply influence Hemingway? Joyce doesn't openly give anything away or make things blatant but understates things very subtly so that you have to read between the lines, and this is something that's true for Hemingway as well. In fact I remember the first time I read The Sun Also Rises I didn't really think too much of it as I hadn't grasped the subtle nature of his writing, but once I'd read some more of his stuff and went back to it I realized how good it was. Probably this is the same reason why The Dead left me cold last time I read it as well, hopefully it will be different this time. But the way in which The Sisters approaches the subject of the priest and whatever it is that he's done without ever mentioning it, like it's something so unpleasant that the characters go out of their way not to put it directly into words, reminds me particularly of Hills Like White Elephants. But maybe I can't help but make this association because I just read Men Without Women last month and am currently reading For Whom the Bell Tolls along with Dubliners.

'The Dead' is a masterpiece, in my opinion. The more one reads it the more one does read between the lines and sees all the little nuances of the characters. It is excellent the way it builts up to that ending. The ending does bring out so much in way of emotion. One's heart goes out deeply to Gabriel and also to his wife. As I said, before this story that the wife reveals to her husband is based on a true story that Nora, Joyce's wife revealed to him after they had been married and had several children, so that I feel this story is completely personal to Joyce, himself and the way he felt at the time.

And I totally agree with Niamh, these stories are universal and not Catholic. If anything they are critical of the Catholic way of thinking and narrowmindedness at that time in history. I hope I am not offending any devout Catholics by saying this but if you know Joyce's history, he left Dublin and went to Italy to escape this sort of biasness. So considering this fact, why would his stories be only Catholic. I don't understand that sort of thinking and I believe all commentary is not accurate. Critics and analysts tend to read much more into things than they should. If Joyce were alive today he might laugh at so much emphasis being placed on the simple name of Gabriel. Besides Gabriel as the archangel is not just a Catholic symbol. It has many connotations. The spectrum is broader than that of just the Catholic Church.

Many of the things you said, Hellsapoppin, I was considering while I read, could apply to much broader interpretations. I don't think you should limit your thoughts to a few courses you took and one man's commentary on Joyce's work. I think you need to see the full picture, and a good biography of Joyce, would help you to see this. I read his brother's book and found it quite interesting; but God knows there are many more accounts of Joyce, that one could look into and get a good perspective on how the actual man/author thought and based his work on.

I just read the first two chapters of James Joyce and the Common Reader by William Powell Jones.

Basically Jones is interested in the linguistic/stylistic shifts between Joyces' various projects. To put it another way, he is very interested in how Joyce evolves as a writer, going from the realist Dubliners to the experimental Finnegan's Wake.

In his chapter on Dubliners he makes the following important points:

1) Jones believes that Joyce wrote Dublin as a microcosm of the universal experience. (basically what Hellsapoppin states). The specific scenes of Dubliners represents the universal experience, even as Joyce also seems very interested in capturing his youth and the specifics/particulars of Irish life back then as accurately as possible

2) Jones insists that the order of the stories in Dubliners is extremely important; they are organized loosely by broad themes/content. The first three stories for example ("The Sisters," "An Encounter," and "Araby") are about childhood and having an experience that forces you to grow up or realize just how much of a child you truly are depending on how you want to read it (since I think you can read the narrator of these stories in either way). They go through different stages of life from being a child to adult maturity as Hellsapoppin points out.

3) The order of the tales reveal that many of the stories are thematic counterparts to each other, which is why the ordering matters. For example, "Two Gallants" has a playboy take advantage of a servent girl to get her to steal something financially from her employer, while "The Boarding House" has a mother and daughter who basically setup a man to take advantage of him economically. They are parallels and opposites of each other. "Eveline" and "After the Race" are paired, one is about a girl who almost goes off to Buenos Aires with her lover, only to hide behind her responsibility, the other is about a boy who goes off on adventure with rich Continentals only to spend his father's money irresponsibly.

4) Jones notes that most of Joyce's stories in Dubliners are slice-of-life tales that center around the character's epiphany. He compares that to religious epiphany in the New Testament, but never really discusses it beyond that. The purpose of bringing it up is more for analogy.

5) Jones also sides with those who see these stories as centrally about paralysis with the exception of The Dead, which he sees a warm portrait of Mature Love.

6) Jones talks a lot about how Joyce thought of Dubliners as a history of Irish "moral life", but again never specifically ties this to Catholicism.

Jones is virtually silent in the first two chapters of his book about Joyces' Catholocism. The idea for "epiphany" that is so important to Joyces' structure with each tale might have originated in religious texts, but it is divorced from any real religious connotations. I suppose you could read Jones's comments on "The Dead" as a kind of symbolic ressurection from all the sins and decay of the other stories (You quote Jones as saying, '' 'The Dead' {reveals} a new theme, that of mature love, sympathetically portrayed. The geniality and warmth of the story, in spite of its title, seem to have been intended by the author to lift the collection [that is the earlier set of stories] from its 'special odour of corruption' ... '')

I'm assuming most of the Catholic reading comes from Gifford, however. I'm sure there is plenty of scholarship addressing how Joyces's Catholicism influenced his work. However, just because a theme is universal doesn't make it automatically a Catholic theme; all or most writers write universal themes to a certain degree. Simply because the etymology of Catholic once meant "Universal" is confusing etymology with current definition (which refers to a specific religion with specific practices). Also, saying that Joyce was interested in certain themes because of his Catholicism (probably true enough and a point I can agree with) is not the same as saying he was specifically attempting to write Catholic themes.

I also hope I am not coming off as being anti-Catholic, especially as a non-Catholic (we unfortunately live in a world where people can be insensitive to Christians). So I want to explain why I am pushing this a little more. I guess what is bothering me still is I want MORE out of the Catholic reading. I want to understand better how you [Hellsapoppin] see the Catholic motifs and symbolism adding up to and signifying a particular/specific meaning. It's all fine and dandy to point out that this story is doing this and that with the trinity, but it never tells me what you think Joyce is driving at by using that symbolism. That's what I really want to know.

Not to mention it seems to me that at times Joyce is extremely critical of both the church and his fellow Catholics as well as Protestants (and perhaps Jews too).

*** Main Implications/Lessons from Jones: I wish I had read Dubliners in the correct order seeing how important the stories ordering happens to be!!!

Drkshadow, I found that completely helpful and puts the ideas into perspective. I too, wish I had read the stories in the correct order. I don't believe I did when I read them a few years back, but then my memory fails me on that fact. I will remember to read them this way on my second reading.
DS, you layed out all of that very well, like an outline and I like your mention of the "epiphany" idea in Joyce's stories - vitally important fact to discuss.

DrkShadow,

Great to see that you looked up Jones which does back up some of what I wrote previously. Gifford is recommended as well for further development of the issues I raised.

I own about 10 books on Joyce (and probably gave away about another 10 several years ago). It is amazing how the writers (including Kenner, Ellman, and Burgess) have different interpretations of the stories and their symbolism.

As for your question, ''it never tells me what you think Joyce is driving at by using that symbolism. That's what I really want to know.'' My answer: I am not sure, either! We see that the deceased priest lived a dissolute life --- did Joyce mean that he should have set a better example? As you just read in Jones, Joyce ''makes a comment on the moral history of mankind without moralizing''. So what, then, was he doing? I honestly do not know.

That is why I brought up the issue. Since I don't know the answer, what do you think he was driving at?

hellsapoppin, could you please use quotes, if you are quoting another person who has posted a comment? I sometimes cannot differenciate between what you say, or what others said, and the comments you make responding to them.
To enclose a body of type in quotes, you just use [quote] at the beginning. At the end you use the same but with a slash / before the word quote. It would be emensely helpful if you could do this. I find your posts confusing to read. To begin with, if you want to quote someone who posted, you can just click on Quote, at the bottom of their post and you will see the formating already set up for you in the window that will appear. Again, this would be so helpful to others trying to read your posts.

I specifically addressed DrkShadow and responded by saying ''as for your question''.

Hope this clarifies it.