Is God being unfair?

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Originally Posted by hellsapoppin

``from my understanding of İslam, the God is not unfair at all.``


According to the Koran, Sura 91, Verse 8, Allah creates ALL evil. It also parallels the Bible's teaching in that it says nothing can befall you unless it is willed by this same god in Sura 9, verse 51.

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This is whole 91th sura there's nothing about evil.

1. By the Sun and his (glorious) splendor;
2. By the Moon as she follows him;
3. By the Day as it shows up (the Sun's) glory;
4. By the Night as it conceals it;
5. By the Firmament and its (wonderful) structure;
6. By the Earth and its (wide) expanse:
7. By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it;
8. And its inspiration as to its wrong and its right;-
9. Truly he succeeds that purifies it,
10. And he fails that corrupts it!
11. The Tham�d (people) rejected (their prophet) through their inordinate wrong-doing,
12. Behold, the most wicked man among them was deputed (for impiety).
13. But the Messenger of Allah said to them: "It is a She-camel of Allah! And (bar her not from) having her drink!"
14. Then they rejected him (as a false prophet), and they hamstrung her. So their Lord crushed them for their sin and leveled them!
15. And for Him is no fear of its consequences.

And here's 9-51.

51. Say: "Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our Protector": and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.

Also i would like to say God creates the concept of evil, but men chooses to perform evil action. At all, evil things are performed by men, creating a concept of evil doesn't mean being unfair.

Which translation are you using?

I used Rodwell's translation and it uses the word ''wickedness'' which means evil on line 8:

''By a Soul and Him who balanced it,
And breathed into it its wickedness''


p 419 published by Phoenix, 1909, re-published in 1992 and 1994

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Originally Posted by hellsapoppin

Distinguished Professor Percy Bridgman answered the idea that some god was not and could not be responsible for the world's ills when he said, ''Scientists aren't responsible for the facts that are in nature ... If anyone should have a sense of it is God. He put the facts there.''

This is the way rationalists think. And if you read the Bible you cannot come out with any other type of interpretation.

But if you wish to defy logic and common sense by still insisting that humans are accountable for the evils created by some god, then so be it.

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From what I can tell the creation of evil started when Satan chose to separate from God. Whether God created evil and Satan decided to spread it to humans or Satan himself created it by separating from God, I don't know. What I do believe, though, is that regardless of who created evil, Adam and Eve are accountable for injecting the problem of evil into the human race when they chose to disobey God.

I don't see how comparing the analogy of the scientists to what the Bible says about evil works. Of course scientists aren't responsible for the facts that are in the world. The Bible makes it clear, however, that Adam and Eve brought evil into the human race. And yes, it is possible and very common to read the Bible and to have different interpretations. That's the way of literature of any kind. There are many "gray areas" in the Bible but I see the accountability of humans as being responsible for bringing evils into the world as very clear and a common theme of many of the stories found within the Bible. In fact much of the Old Testament shows that God was constantly trying to get people to stop treating each other so horribly.

If you're going to use the Bible as a reference then it is not "common sense" to think that He is responsible for the evils in the world and that humans are not. The God of the Bible is perfect, loving and holy. Many of the humans in the Bible are selfish, vile, and utterly ungrateful to God despite His love for them.

This same god created Satan - therefore it is he who ultimately created evil.

Loving fathers do not allow their children to needlessly die or suffer torment. Any loving father worth his salt will readily sacrifice himself for his children. Only a selfish and hate filled father would be so stupid and callous as to sacrifice his children for his good.

hallsapoppin, good fathers do let children suffer for their mistakes. To God, physical life is of little value compared to spiritual life and eternal life after physical death. Because of that, the loss of a physical life is not the end as far as God is concerned. If people physically dying will bring God glory, then so be it, because the people will have eternal life after death anyway, so they haven't lost anything.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't appear that this forum is related to any particular piece of literature, except maybe the Bible and Quran.

I used to think God was fair by definition, so whatever bad thing came my way was either training material because he liked me, or punishment because I'd been bad. Having been raised Catholic, in addition to other formative events, I believed the latter more often than the former.

After leaving the One True Church, and spending a decade in various forms of evangelical fundamentalism, which, it turns out are also One True Churches, I finally concluded that there is no God.

This began to happen when, as I was reading the story of David and Bathsheba, it was suddenly transformed before my eyes.

David, King of Israel, is up on his roof and spots Bathsheba bathing on another roof. He exercises his kingly prerogative, summons her to his chambers, then sends her home. Pregnant, it turns out. He brings husband Uriah home from the war for some unscheduled leave, hoping he'll muddy the tracks, but Uriah is a man of honor. He won't indulge himself while his comrades in arms are suffering on the front. Frustrated, David sends him back to the front, and instructs Uriah's commander to take the men into battle, then withdraw, leaving Uriah alone in the thick of it. This works. With Uriah dead David marries Bathsheba. At this point, God decides He can't condone all this treachery.

He does the only reasonable thing, under the circumstances. He executes the baby.

Getting on in years, David decides he needs someone to keep him warm at night and sends his gophers out to find that special someone. You'd think Mical and Bathsheba could keep things plenty warm enough for him, but he brings in Abishag the Shunammite, probably all of 15 years old, to take the chill off. Finally he dies, old and full years, and God's favorite guy, after Abraham.

So David and his obedient Army Officer get off scot-free, while the baby and Uriah (and Abishag, for that matter) get punished.

I realized then that God was no better than a common CEO. I lost interest in furthering His ends. After that it was a few short steps to realizing He didn't exist.

Viejo, I was off and on atheist, but for the vast majority devoutly atheist, all my life. I didn't understand as I do now at all until I was 19 years old. My mother was Presbyterian, my father was atheist, I went to various churches but mostly didn't attend, then attended some at 17. I studied Buddhist philosophy all along, and at some point Western philosophy; when I become absolutely convinced of the existence of God, it was defined in no better terms as in the words of Pascal: an infinite point, traveling at infinite velocity. In physical form an infinite, in spiritual form an infinite. The minutest understandings of God as an infinite- as nothing more, if most liberally defined, as the complete metaphorical or symbolic truth of that which is good, and all good; brings great reward. God is the very principle of the impossible, and its germ is in everything. Lovers understanding each other impossibly. Parents raising children impossibly. As a principle, God is inseparable from Love, and Hope. God is the source of our thoughts- the source of the universe becoming aware of itself, and observing the universe and itself. God is all this and Alan Watts said that we are God, every one of us is God being born. I'm not using this as a proof or confirmation or authority, just presenting an idea. None of these ideas are any heavier or lighter than any other. So God as an infinte, God as a principle, God as a generalized symbol of good, all of these are acceptable, but God as a vengeful "humanistic" deity, being affected emotionally and punishing mortal, finite, humans, this is not an acceptable existence. You will notice in the Bible it will be describing a series of events, and it will say "the Israelites went before their God and asked whether they should attack or retreat, and God told them to attack." What is this? It is a detraction, and a lie. Many believers of God believe this. (Hint: Hindu???)

``it doesn't appear that this forum is related to any particular piece of literature, except maybe the Bible and Quran.``

But these do constitute valid literature. Therefore, they fit within the scope of the forum's theme.


As for the notion that physical pain or want is acceptable because it leads to a better life, that is absurd. Moreover, the Bible shows that only a very small Elect will enjoy the benefit of the coming Kingdom.

Even this god's best ministers will be shut out of that Kingdom. See Matt 7:22, 23. Sorry, but this is not the work of a loving father.

``I don't see how comparing the analogy of the scientists to what the Bible says about evil works. Of course scientists aren't responsible for the facts that are in the world.``


Just to give Professor Bridgman's words a bit more context, he said that in response to the fact that several of his students were on the Los Alamos atomic bomb project. When challenged as to why scientists should not be held accountable for the terrible deaths that resulted from their work, he replied, '' we are only revealing and utilizing divine laws ''. Thus, if anyone is or should be held accountable, it is the same god who created it all in the first place.

A most logical reply.

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Originally Posted by hellsapoppin

Even this god's best ministers will be shut out of that Kingdom. See Matt 7:22, 23. Sorry, but this is not the work of a loving father.

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You neglected to mention the verses immediately before those. Matt 7:21 says that the people who do God's will are the people who will enter heaven. Verses 22 and 23 are just saying that people who are bad all the time and don't do what God wants will still claim to God that they are doing what he wants. It's very clear if the whole section is read rather than just a few sentences taken out of context. I'd say that his "best ministers" would be the ones doing his will, which that passage specifically says will go to heaven.

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Originally Posted by hellsapoppin

As for the notion that physical pain or want is acceptable because it leads to a better life, that is absurd.

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I think it is the opposite of absurd.

"Everything that's small has to grow, and you know it always grows." - Led Zeppelin, "The Song Remains The Same"

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Originally Posted by hellsapoppin

Which translation are you using?

I used Rodwell's translation and it uses the word ''wickedness'' which means evil on line 8:

''By a Soul and Him who balanced it,
And breathed into it its wickedness''


p 419 published by Phoenix, 1909, re-published in 1992 and 1994

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http://kuran.gen.tr/

There's 3 translations. Check them. I also checked Turkish ones, they weren't like as you said too.

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Originally Posted by hellsapoppin

``it doesn't appear that this forum is related to any particular piece of literature, except maybe the Bible and Quran.``

But these do constitute valid literature. Therefore, they fit within the scope of the forum's theme.

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Just looking for confirmation that I'd guessed right, or at least close enough, and you gave it. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by NikolaiI

...an infinite point, traveling at infinite velocity. In physical form an infinite, in spiritual form an infinite...

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My disbelief in the Abrahamic/Islamic/Christian God doesn't mean I am an Atheist in the usual sense. A number of Atheists have told me I'm not a real one. It's funny, coming from a Catholic/fundamentalist background, to find 'atheists' playing the inquisitor and looking for heresy. I can almost smell the hot irons and incense, hear the chanting and the rattle of chains.

However, I usually present myself as an Atheist because most people I meet believe in some kind of old bearded white guy on a throne, and can't conceive of anything else.

I haven't the slightest idea of what lies out there in the great unexplored vastness of what we don't know. I accept the idea that we'll slowly discover the rules of our universe, and I doubt that we'll find a separate intellect behind it all.

Your infinite point at infinite velocity may turn out to be a reasonable device for representing what's out there. If there's time, maybe it will tell.

in these circular arguments. I don't think anyones actually come up with anything philosophically or theologically insightful. You will always find a million ways to attack a religious text and a million ways to defend it because in effect it is solely a piece of literature. Why are you discussing it as if it's solid emperical data? it's 'just' a belief.