Owning Pets Is Cruel Debate

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Originally Posted by Granny5

Fifth, have you ever had a pet dog?

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Yes, I have had dogs, cats, hamsters, rabbits. I understand the affection that is felt towards towards animals, and the appearance of affection in return, and I have to reconcile this past history of mine against my feeling that animals should be allowed to be animals, and live according to their nature.

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Originally Posted by Granny5

My dogs love me and I have complete confidence in this. They wouldn't choose to leave or they would have already left. They are outside several times a day and we are in an area where they could hit the woods or run across a field and get away easily. But they come back on their own and always seem happy to be home. I would never want my animals to be out running loose and being hungry and catch disease that I can have the vet prevent.

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Granny, it sounds like your dogs have got it great but I'd suspect that your situation is more unique and the majority of dogs don't have the kind of freedom that yours do. And it comes back to this point :

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Dogs are raised in human homes from a very young age, and they adapt to it, they adapt to it well. Perhaps if a human child, say a two year old was given over to a pack of wild dogs to raise (assuming they didn't eat it!) it would similarly adapt but we would not argue that it is the human instinct to live like wild dogs live, just because they could.

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And again, we are back onto dogs. Do you think this is the same for fish, hamsters, mice, rabbits, snakes, lizards, etc etc (I should have this line on cut n' paste!).

This is not about individuals Granny, it's about the bigger picture and how human beings interact with other species. I think that the less we interfere with other species, the better. In your opinion, is this wrong?

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

So Lote, what is your symbiotic relationship with hamsters?

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None because I don't own pets anymore. I did when I was young.

If I choose to create a Symbiotic Relationship (and don't forget many animals Choose to form a Symbiotic alliances mostly driven by the need of the environment) it would be thus: Hamster will walk around my garden giving me lots of pleasure. It will perhaps eat some of the parasitic insects in the garden. And in return for that I would feed it, look after it and shelter it.

Is that good enough?

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

None because I don't own pets anymore. I did when I was young.

If I choose to create a Symbiotic Relationship (and don't forget many animals Choose to form a Symbiotic alliances mostly driven by the need of the environment) it would be thus: Hamster will walk around my garden giving me lots of pleasure. It will perhaps eat some of the parasitic insects in the garden. And in return for that I would feed it, look after it and shelter it.

Is that good enough?

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And huh...you would love it, also, I hope. :) It's important too.

Lote, Lote, Lote :D

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

(and don't forget many animals Choose to form a Symbiotic alliances

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I think that 'many' animals, do not form symbiotic alliances. Of course if you have some Scientific data to back up this statement I'd certainly like to read it.

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

mostly driven by the need of the environment)

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would this be because humans have driven them out of their environment?

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Hamster will walk around my garden giving me lots of pleasure. It will perhaps eat some of the parasitic insects in the garden. And in return for that I would feed it, look after it and shelter it.

Is that good enough?

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That depends, you'd have to ask the Hamster. If the Hamster said it was fine with them, then it'd be fine with me.

I'm glad to hear though that it's not one of those other symbiotic relationships that some men have with hamsters. You had me worried.

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I think that the less we interfere with other species, the better. In your opinion, is this wrong?

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in case someone feels like answering the Challenging question, and not just talking about their dog ;)

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

Lote, I'll post my original comment for clarity and leave it there. It is a difficult concept, I think, for most people to get their heads round, particularly if they are unable to divorce their own emotional involvement, and the implications of that, from the debate.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

The whole concept of keeping any animals as pets is disturbing to me, like a cruel form of long term torture. Imagine, if a man found a woman 'cute', would it be okay to divorce her from what would be her natural environment, her environment of choice, and keep her, effectively, a prisoner without any chance of self-determination, choice or will for the rest of her life, and foist kisses and other such affections on her as though this makes up for the act of subjugation.

I wonder, if it was acceptable or normal to act towards other humans in this way, would we continue to do so in relation to animals? Is it just another expression of our desire to have dominion over something else, albeit largely well intentioned? If dogs could speak would they say 'let me be a dog'?

I say, if you love them set them free. (or perhaps Sting might have said it, but if he did I agree!)

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Sorry, just one addition. Change the statement in the thread to 'Keeping humans as pets is cruel'. How much debate would there be?

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Just wanted to say..sorry but the whole keeping women as pets thing, its not like it hasnt happened in the past .

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Here's an interesting side question. Are mentally ill people who refuse to be institutionalized allowed to live on their own, even if they don't harm others? There was a philosophy in the late 1960's and 1970's (sort of presented in the novel One Flew Over The Cukkoo's Nest) that people such as this should be let out. Of course they lived on the streets and created a huge homeless problem. Should these people be aloowed to live on the streets?

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:confused: Your not saying mentally ill people should all be locked up or lobotmised are you Virg? Thats smacks of a return to Bedlum days to me.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

So Lote, what is your symbiotic relationship with hamsters?



I do understand your position with regard to dogs, but I'm still not convinced on the point of instinct. I suppose this is because I think, if there were no humans, dogs wouldn't live in houses with locked doors, or gardens with fences and locked gates, they would poop where they want when they want, mate whenever and wherever the opportunity arose, they wouldn't be neutered, they'd live in packs, hunt in packs, fight with each other, and whatever else it is that dogs do when they're not exposed to humans. Dogs are raised in human homes from a very young age, and they adapt to it, they adapt to it well. Perhaps if a human child, say a two year old was given over to a pack of wild dogs to raise (assuming they didn't eat it!) it would similarly adapt but we would not argue that it is the human instinct to live like wild dogs live, just because they could.

But then, again, we are just talking about dogs, what about fish, hamsters, snakes, lizards, gerbils, rabbits, stick insects, birds, etc which are also kept as pets?

I would love to see dogs in the wild. I feel privileged when I see a deer, or a fox doing what deer and fox do when they're out and about. But it seems that the human approach is live with us or die. I wonder if dogs hadn't been useful to humans, what would their situation be now?

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Originally Posted by manolia

I believe there is nothing wrong in owning a pet. I am a bit surprised that some people think it is. I believe dogs such as other domesticated animals can't live on their own..so yes it is better for them to be adopted by people..

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Im not sure I belive this, I think that if they have had no human contact, any animal can survive in the wild.


I dont belive keeping pets is cruel persay, but even though weve had pets all my life, I dont think I will ever have any other than maybe fish when Im on my own. Pets tend to need attetion and affection and I really am not the person for either.
And yes with one of those massive fish tank fish out to be alright oughtn't they?

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

I think that 'many' animals, do not form symbiotic alliances. Of course if you have some Scientific data to back up this statement I'd certainly like to read it.

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Research for Symbiotic relationships in the animal world...in google.

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would this be because humans have driven them out of their environment?

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Not necessarily. They have come into contact with humans. Like seagulls following the trawler.

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That depends, you'd have to ask the Hamster. If the Hamster said it was fine with them, then it'd be fine with me.

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I have. I have left it outside. And it decided to come inside the house.

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Research for Symbiotic relationships in the animal world...in google.

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I think the problem is that in the animal kingdom a lot of animals also form parasitic relationships.

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Not necessarily. They have come into contact with humans. Like seagulls following the trawler.

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"When the seagull follows the trawler, it is because they believe the fishermen will throw fish into the sea" Eric "kung Fu" Cantona - cant be the only person who instinctively remembered this

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

I have. I have left it outside. And it decided to come inside the house.

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I wonder about this (of course it would depend on where you & the hamster are) the hamster would instintively look for shelter & if it could find this easily in the outside would it really come inside?

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Originally Posted by kilted exile

"When the seagull follows the trawler, it is because they believe the fishermen will throw fish into the sea" Eric "kung Fu" Cantona - cant be the only person who instinctively remembered this

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Yes. It was from this I got this :D

And I hate football ;-)

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I wonder about this (of course it would depend on where you & the hamster are) the hamster would instintively look for shelter & if it could find this easily in the outside would it really come inside?

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If it knows which shelter will provide food and company it will choose the one that benefits it :D

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Originally Posted by Nightshade

Just wanted to say..sorry but the whole keeping women as pets thing, its not like it hasnt happened in the past .

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Yes, sadly it has happened and probably still happens.

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

I have. I have left it outside. And it decided to come inside the house.

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What, it's in the house now? I thought it was in the garden. How did the hamster get in the garden in the first place - they're not native to UK. Leaving it outside isn't really the same as asking it and getting an unequivocal answer, is it?

I do like this statement, though it needs a little alteration:

If I choose to create a Symbiotic Relationship (and don't forget many animals Choose to form a Symbiotic alliances mostly driven by the need of the environment) it would be thus: Hugh Jackman will walk around my garden giving me lots of pleasure. He will perhaps eat some of the parasitic insects in the garden. And in return for that I would feed him, look after him and shelter him.

Now, there's a thought ;)

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

So
I do understand your position with regard to dogs, but I'm still not convinced on the point of instinct. I suppose this is because I think, if there were no humans, dogs wouldn't live in houses with locked doors, or gardens with fences and locked gates

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If there were no humans, dogs would not have evolved to what they are. Natural selection would have either exterminated them or further evolve differently.

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I would love to see dogs in the wild. I feel privileged when I see a deer,

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I'm not aware of any dogs in the wild. Wild African Dogs are actually a different species, despite the name. the only wild dogs I can think of are Dingos of Austrailia. From Wiki:

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The dingo (plural dingoes) or warrigal, Canis lupus dingo, is a type of wild dog, probably descended from the Southern-East Asian Wolf (Canis Lupus Pallipes). [2] It is commonly described as an Australian wild dog, but is not restricted to Australia, nor did it originate there. Modern dingoes are found throughout Southeast Asia, mostly in small pockets of remaining natural forest, and in mainland Australia, particularly in the north. They have features in common with both wolves and modern dogs, and are regarded as more or less unchanged descendants of an early ancestor of modern dogs. The name dingo comes from the language of the Eora Aboriginal people, who were the original inhabitants of the Sydney area.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingo. So they too are a different species from the common domestic dog.

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I wonder if dogs hadn't been useful to humans, what would their situation be now?

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Judging by my vet bills, probably dead. :lol: My dog has the life. She gets exercise in the morning, eats till full, sleeps all day on the couch, and gets cleaned and given medical care. :lol: That's the life of a rich person. I wish I had it so good. ;)

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

What, it's in the house now? I thought it was in the garden.

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Yes. It follows me around and has learnt that going into the house will mean shelter and food.

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How did the hamster get in the garden in the first place - they're not native to UK.

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I found it on the streets.

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Leaving it outside isn't really the same as asking it and getting an unequivocal answer, is it?

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There is the problem Supreme Being. Hamster have not YET evolved a language to communicate with humans. When it does I shall :D

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If I choose to create a Symbiotic Relationship (and don't forget many animals Choose to form a Symbiotic alliances mostly driven by the need of the environment) it would be thus: Hugh Jackman will walk around my garden giving me lots of pleasure. He will perhaps eat some of the parasitic insects in the garden. And in return for that I would feed him, look after him and shelter him.

Now, there's a thought ;)

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No Hamster no stay he would say :D

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Originally Posted by Nightshade

:confused: Your not saying mentally ill people should all be locked up or lobotmised are you Virg? Thats smacks of a return to Bedlum days to me.

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And while we're lobotomising, why not conduct all sorts of cruel experiments on them. :p :p

No, I don't advocate any lobotomes. First of all most people with some sort of mental illness can live with family or possibly even alone. But mentally ill people who are a danger to society or to themselves need to be housed in some institution, even if it's against their will. We had this hippie pholosophy get implemented in the US in the early 1970's and it was a disaster. Like most hippie philosophy that gets tried. No one in their right mental state wants to live in the street. They need medical attention, and I'm sure lobotomy is not a current medically appoved procedure.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

Yes, I have had dogs, cats, hamsters, rabbits. I understand the affection that is felt towards towards animals, and the appearance of affection in return, and I have to reconcile this past history of mine against my feeling that animals should be allowed to be animals, and live according to their nature.



Granny, it sounds like your dogs have got it great but I'd suspect that your situation is more unique and the majority of dogs don't have the kind of freedom that yours do. And it comes back to this point :



And again, we are back onto dogs. Do you think this is the same for fish, hamsters, mice, rabbits, snakes, lizards, etc etc (I should have this line on cut n' paste!).

This is not about individuals Granny, it's about the bigger picture and how human beings interact with other species. I think that the less we interfere with other species, the better. In your opinion, is this wrong?

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I don't think we can lump fish, snakes, lizards, etc, etc in with dogs and cats. Dogs and cats have been domesticated for centuries and I think they depend on us as much as we depend on them. Horses and other draft animals don't survive well in the wild either although I think man is their worse enemy in the wild. If one lets their dog out, it comes back on it's own. If you let a bird out, it's gone! There is a big difference in the different animals that some keep as pets. Wild animals shouldn't be held as pets, but dogs and cats aren't usually wild.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Judging by my vet bills, probably dead. :lol: My dog has the life. She gets exercise in the morning, eats till full, sleeps all day on the couch, and gets cleaned and given medical care. :lol: That's the life of a rich person. I wish I had it so good. ;)

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:lol: perhaps vets are the new 'blood-sucking' lawyers.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I'm not aware of any dogs in the wild. Wild African Dogs are actually a different species, despite the name. the only wild dogs I can think of are Dingos of Austrailia. From Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingo. So they too are a different species from the common domestic dog.

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Different species, same genus, isn't that just a matter of semantics? Like saying a labrador isn't a the same kind of dog as a poodle, but they are both still dogs?

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Yes. It follows me around and has learnt that going into the house will mean shelter and food.

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so, you wander around the garden all night, and leave the house open all night? I'm surprised it's only the hamster that's come in!

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

No Hamster no stay he would say :D

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:lol: Another disturbing incident of men and their hamsters.

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Originally Posted by Granny5

I don't think we can lump fish, snakes, lizards, etc, etc in with dogs and cats.

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See, this is where it gets messy for me, but then perhaps that's because I fall into the 'it's okay, or it's not' camp, regardless of the species, or perhaps it's a matter of logic. Lizards, snakes, fish, etc are all kept as pets and I'm taking it from your post (but I could be wrong, no doubt you'll correct me ;) ) that you agree that creatures such as fish, lizards, snakes, birds should not be kept as pets because they are 'wild'. But they may have lived their entire lives in captivity, so are they domestic or wild? Dogs and cats were once largely wild, but humans interfered and 'domesticated' them. So all that's left now, with the exception of a few wild breeds, are domestic cats and dogs. But where animals have been wiped out or their numbers reduced because of human interferance we are actively seeking to reintroduce them to the wild. But not dogs and cats. So this is to me one rule for one, and one rule for another.

But you didn't answer my question which was : I think that the less we interfere with other species, the better. In your opinion, is this wrong?

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Originally Posted by Granny5

Dogs and cats have been domesticated for centuries and I think they depend on us as much as we depend on them.

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:lol: Granny, I don't know what your cats have been like, but I've yet to meet one that 'depends' on humans.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

so, you wander around the garden all night, and leave the house open all night? I'm surprised it's only the hamster that's come in!

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Yes. I am eccentric English Man :D

But truth is this. I have not owned a Hamster. But I did have a heron.

I raised it from a little baby when it fell from a tree and broke one of it's leg (I grew up on a farm). I nursed it to health and raised it myself. And it became attached to me. It roam around the farm side but it still returned to me. When he saw me he came towards me. When I was not around it went looking for me. It is so strange.

Symbiotic Relationship can happen all the time and with unusual animals.

Edit: I also had a baby calf, a mynah bird and bower bird, a cat and a dog. And I know how Symbiotic Relationship begins...