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Hey.. don't expect Jester to use any punctuation - she won't :p. As for what I said, i think i meant something else when i wrote that and I think people can easily misunderstand it and that's my mistake. The only problem is that I don't know how to explain now what i was trying to say hahaha.. oh well..:p
Sorry, will try with the punctuation, bad habits and lazyness die hard...
I think what Kushi meant is that we all have the right and I know she knows that but she's not asking to take away your right just saying thatvwhenvit comes to religious discussion or debates, or arguements as this one is turning into, we need to mindfull of pissing each other off and perhaps the best way to do that is try to understand rather then get down to dirty name calling (not that that's happen just that I see that in the near furture of this thread). Using words like this is full of ____ (whatever you want to put there), this is all nonsense, wrong, stupid, you're ignorant, not true... are going to really upset people who have strong religious values as well as those that don't when used against them. She did not mean that you don't have the right to speak... :eek2:
thank you...
Good luck, my dear!Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
I believe in My BOOK and it is written there:
30. (44) Those who reject Faith will suffer from that rejection: and those who work righteousness will spread their couch (of repose) for themselves (in heaven):
30.(45) That He may reward those who believe and work righteous deeds, out of his Bounty. For He loves not those who reject Faith.
30.(52) So verily thou canst not make the dead to hear, nor canst thou make the deaf to hear the call, when they show their backs and turn away.
30.(53) Nor canst thou lead back the blind from their straying: only those wilt thou make to hear, who believe in Our signs and submit (their wills in Islam).
30.(58) verily We have propounded for men, in this Qur'an every kind of Parable: But if thou bring to them any Sign, the Unbelievers are sure to say, "Ye do nothing but talk vanities."
I think atheism idiocy but I was not going to declare it loudly just because it might sound like: atheists are idiots. Where’s my democratic principle to respect others who think different?
I can make my comments in other way not using that phrase.
I just wonder if you don’t accept that you’re creature of GOD then how you explain your creation? I can do it by the following ayat:
30.(20) Among His Signs in this, that He created you from dust; and then,- behold, ye are men scattered (far and wide)!
And I believe in it. As Sub told I was born in non-democratic and non-religious country (USSR) and at school I took Darwin’s scientific theory as my first history lesson. A.P., do you really believe that theory? Though I was quite little then I really felt bad thinking of that our ancestry is ape.
I dont think so Jes, i believed most members here are open minded intellegent people. Saying things like "stupid" in a serious way would be unlikely to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
And Kushi, i see your point now :)
Cheers all
Caspian said: <if you don’t accept that you’re creature of GOD then how you explain your creation?>
Excuse me??? Acceptance of God as Creator explains your creation?? And you think atheists are idiots? Geez.
just because something (like creation) is beyond man's grasp for the time being, it need not mean that it happened through god. there were days when our forefathers thought the sun was god. earlier civilisations like egyptian, indus etc considered sun as god. they also had books/hieroglyphics and phrases to quote. we have been evolving throughout and slowly understanding the universe. we understood the sun is one of the zillions of stars out there. let me not talk abt the darwin's theory. the evolution theory is also under evolution.. maybe there is answer to so many things we don't know. but attributing everything we don't know to god is simply laziness and foolishness.Quote:
Originally Posted by caspian
about atheism.. if you can believe in god, why can't another person choose not to believe? you cannot just say cuz someone wrote in down on books that you should believe in god. there are so many books and beliefs like that around. if i hold up some lines in a book which say 'there is no god' like that like that..?
anyways why you shud feel bad about evolving out of apes :confused: in your religion, if everything in this world possess the essence of god, shouldn't you be happy that you are linked with another fellow creature out there? i think it is better to say apes evolved from human beings.. they are satisfied with their basic things and don't fight each other on religion/race/color or whatever man makes a mess of. :)
"Would any Muslims care to explain this in the Koran:
8.12 When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore
make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of
those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off
every fingertip of them. "
Assalamu Aleikum (pease be upon you),
Before one can understand and explain the meaning of Qur'an,one must be familiar with many other things, such as why a certain verse was revealed, when, under what circumstances, whether it is applicable only to the time of the Prophet s.a.v.s(pease and blessings be upon him), or for all the time..etc. Only learned scholars are allowed to interpret the Qur'anic verses, because they study all these things in detail, before offering an explanation to a certain verse. Someone who is unfamiliar with all these fundamental things, may misunderstand the Qur'an and be misguided by many things. I will try to explain this verse, not with my own interpretation but rather with the interpretaion of the great and respected scholar Ibn Kathir (may Allah be pleased with him), whose interpretation of the Qur'an have been used and studied by many others. Another important thing one must consider is that Qur'an is not merely a religion that is concerned with morals and values, but that it is a way of life, it contains the Law for every aspect of human life, both public and privte, legal matter or social dispute. Therefore, one will find in the Qur'an everything one needs to become a righteous human being, and the implementation of Qur'anic laws will lead to a construction of a healty and just society. Allah s.v.t is not only guiding human beings on how to become better people, but also instructing them in every other aspect ot their life, which also includes rules on fighting wars with one's enemies.
Allah s.v.t says in one verse that muslims are not to fight any wars to conquer other people and kill merely for territory, but only to fight wars if they need to defend themselves. That means, muslims can only fight in a war when they have been attacked or oppressed, and should never start war themselves. Also, muslims are not allowed to kill the innocent; women, children and elderly. Allah s.v.t has forbidden them to mutilate dead bodies, destroy and burn trees and plants that are fruitful or slay enemy's flock. Wars should only be fougth as last resorts, and should be avoided whenever possible.
Now to the verse cited above. That verse was reveled concerning the battle of Badr. After the Prophet s.a.v.s and his followers started preaching Islam openly in Mecca, they were prosecuted in any imaginable way. When nothing worked, the leaders of the Quraish tribe decided to forbid anyone to trade and deal in any way with muslims. They were forbidden to sell food to them, to trade any goods, to help them, give them shelter, or even talk to muslims. Those muslims who did not have an influential relative to protect them, were beaten or even killed. During this time, the Prophet s.a.v.s decided to leave Mecca and left with his followers for the city of Medina, where they were allowed to live safely.
However, the Quraish tribe did not stop at this, but wrote letters and threats to the protectors of muslims in Medina, telling them that they will be attacked if they did not prosecute the Prophet s.a.v.s and his followers. Muslims were determined to return to their homeland and longed for their freedom. They knew that they were not strong enough to fight against the Quraish but decided instead to plan an attack on the caravans that were passing by. The Quraish sent caravans in which there were goods for sale and trade with other tribes. When one caravan, that contained valuable things and also all the belongings muslims left when they were forced out of Mecca, was supposed to come by, Prophet s.a.v.s decided that this might be a good opportunity for them to fight the Quraish. He sent two people to follow the caravan and try to learn of its path, but the Quraish heard of this, and sent word back to Mecca that muslims were preparing to attack them. Upon hearing this, an army of 1000 soldiers was raised and sent to fight the Prophet s.a.v.s and his followers. When the Prophet s.a.v.s heard of this, he summond his followers and told them that it was time to fight, and that word from Allah s.v.t has come and it contained the order to fight their enemies. Only 313 muslims were fighting this battle,they were not well equiped and were at a disadvantage in every possible way when compared to the army of the Quraish. The night before the battle, Prophet Mohammed spent praying and it is narrated that he was saying to Allah s.v.t:"O' Allah ! fulfil this day, Thy promise made unto me. O' Allah, if this little band is wiped off this day, none shall ever worship Thee till the end of world."
The next day, the battle was fought. As promised in the Qur'an, Allah s.v.t sent his army of angels to help the muslims, and they defeated the Quraish with minor losses (only 14 muslims were killed on that day). The battle became known for its importance and great consequences for muslims and the spread of Islam. Muslims were allowed to return to Mecca and start preaching Islam to other people. It is believed that if muslims had lost this battle and were defeated by the Quraish, that would have been the end of Islam. Because of this battle, and the injustice done to Prophet Mohammed and his followers, the verse:"8.12 When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off
every fingertip of them. " was revealed. It instructed muslims to fight the enemy and not be afraid, to know that Allah s.v.t is on their side, and that even though the enemy was in greater number, Allah s.v.t has filled their hearts with fear, and those who fear cannot fight successfully. The verse is only to be applied in such circumstances, when one is attacked, opressed and fights a war. It does not mean the prosecution of those who do not attack muslims, nor does it permit opression or injustice towards anyone. As noted before, Islam is the guidance for every aspect of a human life, and just as a general gives instructions to his army, so does Allah s.v.t gives instructions to those who fight for His religion, and only when they fight a defensive war, defending their lives, their religion, freedon and honor.
I hope this helps in some way...
A really convincing argument. I'm just off to spend the rest of my life reading and studying the Koran. See ya later.
funny, i have an assignment due wednesday, it's on the koran and a fictitious tribe that discovers it in 700 c.e.; we're to describe how it uses this book to to build their city (on socio-economic and political lines). i'm firmly believe in the separation of church and state, but well, this helps
a little bit with wrapping my brain around such a very hard concept.Quote:
it contains the Law for every aspect of human life, both public and privte, legal matter or social dispute.
thanks, Amra.
Assalamu aleikum (peace be upon you:) )
amuse:
"funny, i have an assignment due wednesday, it's on the koran and a fictitious tribe that discovers it in 700 c.e.; we're to describe how it uses this book to to build their city (on socio-economic and political lines). i'm firmly believe in the separation of church and state, but well, this helps
a little bit with wrapping my brain around such a very hard concept"
That should be a very interesting, if at the same time highly challenging, assignment. If you need any help, feel free to ask, but I must warn you, the islamic fiqh (islamic law) is a very complex issue, and numerous books have been written on it. If you don't have enough time, try to look up some references on the internet, just search for "islamic fiqh".
Since I am sure that the most controversial issue on islamic law is the well-known and many times misrepresented issue of "stoning of women", I will try to shed some light on this. First of all, one must understand that modesty and honor is highly regarding in Islam. Pre marriage sex is not permitted. It is believed that family is the most important institution and that everything needs to be done in order to save and protect it. Divorce is allowed, but as Allah s.v.t said, it is to Him the most hated allowed thing. Therefore, everything needs to be done in order to avoid divorce. Also, Islam is set up on the principle that everything that leads to haram (forbidden thing) is also forbidden. The laws are enforced and made for the causes, not only for the effects of certain deeds. For example, it is forbidden to drink alcohol, and to avoid being tempted by this, and to commit this sin for any reason, all precautins are taken, therefore, it is not only forbidden to drink it, but to sell or buy it, to sit with someone who drinks alcohol, to help make it etc. This eliminates all the causes that can lead to the negative effect of getting drunk, driving while under intoxication, having an accident while under the influence, figting..and many other long term effects also.
Because of this principle, Islam has implemented many rules as to how to avoid adultery, and everything that is perceived as encourages adultery or leads to it, is also punishable by law. Adultery is one of greater sins, because its consequences are grave, both for the family as well as for the whole society. Diseases are spread, families broken up, morals are lost, children are born out of wed lock, women are left to raise children themselves, if it happens during marriage, the woman may get pregnant without her husband knowing that it may not be his daugther or son etc. Because of this, adultery is punishable by death.
However, one must recognize another fact in Islam, and that is the value of human life. Allah s.v.t places a high importance on human life and says that it is sacred, and whoever kills an innocent human being, it is as though he has killed all human kind. Everything that harms human life is strictly forbidden, suicide is one of the greatest sins (it is said that those who commit it, will find themselves in hell, and their punishment will be that they will commit suicide repeatedly in the same way that they choose to take their life in this life). Therefore, before death penalty is enforced, there are laws that need to be followed to ensure justice. First of all, one must make a difference between those who commit adultery while not married, and those who are married and commit it. The punishment is not the same, because those who are married bring injustice to other people when doing such a thing; for example, they hurt their families, risk divorce, could spread diesase to their unknowing spouse etc.
When two people, who are not married, commit adultery, their punishment is to be wipped by 100 stripes. In the verse, Allah s.v.t says:"2. The Zaniyah(adulterer) and the Zani(adulteress), flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment."(Surah En-Nur, verse 2) If a woman or man commits adultery while they are married, their punishment is to be stoned to death. Before this can be enforced, however, one must produce four witnesses who will give an oath before the judge and swear that they have seen those accused of commiting adultery. If one cannot produce four witnesses to the crime, the punishment cannot be enforced. In the same surah, verse 4, Allah s.v.t says: "And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the rebellious." In this verse, it is obvious, how sacred human life and honor are, and that one cannot go around accusing women of having committed adultery, if one does not have any proof, except one's own suspicion.
The most important and most neglected verse, when it comes to adultery, is the following:
"6. And for those who accuse their wives, but have no witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies by Allah that he is one of those who speak the truth.
7. And the fifth (testimony); invoking of the curse of Allah on him if he be of those who tell a lie.
8. But she shall avert the punishment from her, if she bears witness four times by Allah, that he is telling a lie.
9. And the fifth; should be that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he speaks the truth.
10. And had it not been for the grace of Allah and His mercy on you! And that Allah is the One Who forgives and accepts repentance, the All-Wise."
This shows that if there are no four witnesses to testify of the crime, and only the husband accuses his wife of commiting it, he has to swear four times by Allah, that he is telling the truth, and the fifth time invoke the course of Allah if he is telling the lie. However, if the wife swears four times that her husband is lying, and the fifth time asks for God's wrath if he is not lying, no punishment can be carried out. In this case, the witness of the accused is higher than that of the accuser, because, as I stated earlier, human life is sacred, and if there is not enough evidence, than it must be saved from punishment, in this case death.
I hope this will help disperse some of the negativity regarding this law, since one can see how hard it is to ever enforce it in real life, and that it is merely used to scare of those who think about committing adultery. How many times can one really produce four witnesses when adultery is committed? One should think about these things before judging this rule or blaming muslims for being primitive savages.
According to the Lit-Net The Koran (Al-Qur'an), I found that it was translated as `Fair Women`(The Smoke 044.054 Y) not beautiful angels because according to their faith angels have no gender ( I would like the Moslems to correct me if i am wrong). Regarding the question i was also curious about it since my childhood but i did not get any answers and i am disappointed that no one gave the answer to this specific query, if any one now knows please come forward and i would also try to find out about them.Quote:
Originally Posted by subterranean
I don't understand you correctly, but from what i know angel created from "Noor" light, and yes there are not like us, angels have no gender like us. Allah god created them to pray for him and they never refuse to do what Allah tell them to do.Quote:
According to the Lit-Net The Koran (Al-Qur'an), I found that it was translated as `Fair Women`(The Smoke 044.054 Y) not beautiful angels because according to their faith angels have no gender ( I would like the Moslems to correct me if i am wrong).
this is what i know والله أعلم
May be you can help solve this puzzle since I have searched most orthodox Islamic books but I never found anything even closely related to what I was looking for . Recently I asked a Moslem Arab preacher, equivalent to a sunday school,chaplain this very particular question and she told me that the reason it is not mentioned or revealed any where, its because the perception of women in Islam is that of one surrounded by the aura of dignity and modesty and since God, as the creator, knows the qualities of each of His creation, so He deliberately kept it hidden.
Another version comes from a religious male figure of that community, who also strictly contradicted the female version, saying that when pious women would enter Heaven, they would be paired with their earthly pious partners or if that is not then case any other righteous male, equivalent to her position in paradise, would be partnered with her.
Which notion is accurate , we still do not know. Does Moslems here have any idea?
[QUOTE=
Another version comes from a religious male figure of that community, who also strictly contradicted the female version, saying that when pious women would enter Heaven, they would be paired with their earthly pious partners or if that is not then case any other righteous male, equivalent to her position in paradise, would be partnered with her.
Which notion is accurate , we still do not know. Does Moslems here have any idea?[/QUOTE]
I agree with the second... because women in paradise will be the most beautiful ones and they will have their husbands... concerning the other beatiful women, there will be no jealousy or hatred