I was thinking the same thing after reading your post, but couldn't figure out how to say it without bringing politics into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselmus
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I was thinking the same thing after reading your post, but couldn't figure out how to say it without bringing politics into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselmus
That is what I was trying to get at without saying it in so many words when I posted the above message :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
OK... No politics... Moving on swiftly... ;)
did you know about the play before hand? before the club reading?
no. just liked the name.
what do you think of the title then?
before and after reading?
i thought it was that thing you use in chemistry
just looked up what 'crucible' means
i was wondering how the title associates with the book
I was very confused about the title before starting to read it
wondered how it would relate
was it like ...testing?
I'm not too big on titles, don't think about that part of a work
if the acid is real/if the person is Witch
yep, testing by fire
ah yes
must try it in chemistry
what do you think of it now after reading it?
I think it's about testing the reader
if the person is a witch then he will burn when he touches it
i thought it refers to seperation of people with rules from people without rules
ie morals
like proctor stands out
lawful vs chaotic
kind of yes
some people gave in
moral vs immoral? well, me thinks
you know DD terms?
well, there are two possibilities of alignment: goodvs evil and chaotic vs lawful
so good equals not with lawful
I kinda agree, what's lawful doesn't mean it's good
that is true
because in terms of law, proctor is guilty
or those who refuse to cooperate
but are they bad?
laws are changing things
depend on the time
that is true as well but there are still things which might be detable
going back to title, do you think it makes sense? Miller's choice was a good one?
it is certainly..intriguing
not cliche
it is not
i didnt know what crucible meant until i heard about this play
also, it sounds a bit like "crucify"
that is interesting
what is the thing you liked most about the play?
I like its subject matter
how timeless it is
we can all relate to it in our countries and even today...
all around the world
me liked it overall
couldn't put it down, but to say what the best part was
you liked everything about it?
almost
well, not the bad guys, or the way the people are so easilly gullible
me too me too
well, we need the bad guys to appreciate the good ones
of course
unless there is bad, how do we define the good?
I just might not like them
yesyes, literatully they were ok, but as persons
who is your least favorite character?
that judge
Abigail I think
all that i have condemned so many people and therefore i am correct
mine were the Putnams
shouldn't it be the other way round?
i have a truble with names
their daughter blamed everyone with whom they had issue with
especially land/border problems
it was strange
i mean, a person seventeen years old has no conscience?
well, yeah, why not?
but miller gives an explanation for abbigail's behaviour as well...
yes
but was it necessary to blaim half the damn town
they could also have confessed
and get away with it
if they did, they'd lose their land, not?
if they confessed they'd lose anyway
and they also had to give other people's names
do you think you would 'confess'?
I'd like to think I wouldn't
why the ''s?
as they did nothing wrong, there's nothing to confess
the '' are there because there wouldnt be anything confess because you havent done anything wrong
at least not witchcraft
they lied about the other people
they did withcraft
with tituba
well, we are talking about ourselves
by "they could have confessed", i mean that when one of these girls wanted to say that they lied about all those people, the others should have supported her
not playing a fool and acting as bewitched
oh you mean Mary?
yes, her
she tried to tell the truth but the gang turned on her
i mean, it is like, the gang had no empathy
just saving their own as..necks
from some light punishment
yes
it all started like that, didnt it?
they blamed tituba not to get punished for their silly doings
tituba was cool
well, silly... what's wrong with dancing naked in a forest?
yes
when you remember where you put your clothes
we are talking about 400 years ago
what do you think of that, that the theocracy was broken after that incident described in the book?
people realised how dangerous it could be...
blind submission
beyond reasoning
and any questioning
the reaction ended in an explosion
nobody seemed to think that those people whom they knew all their lives as good cannot be evil doers
coouldn't it be a positive point, if there was one, that theocracy ended?
you mean those who lot their lives were sacrificed for a good cause? or not in vain?
there was a little good in it
like all that tension was released
it was a terrible society
nothing was permitted
I think we would like to believe that we learnt our lessons.. but have we?
there was so little to do: work, pray, eat, drink brandy, and make children
considering the reason Miller wrote the play for...
it probably was very--tensionous?
he wanted to avoid the explosion?
burning all the leftwingers
after hiroshima, you would think that people would not even talk about atom boms/nuclear weapons but so many countries still have them
wasn't the current politics in Millers time witchhunting communists
but there was more to it
like in salem, people were asked to give names of their friends who attended communist meetings
or who were members of the communist party at the time
and some did
and those who did got away easy
again like it happened in salem
it was 'you are either with us or against us'
dualism
devil versus god
pick your sides, ladies and gentlemen
and being on'their side' meant answering all the questions asked
like names, places etc
many intellectual minds of the time suffered
they said that they were democratic, but that the capitalist countries were considered bad
how do we know that the next generation won't look on the US as we are looking on SU?
it is a good thing that these things get questioned
even through literature
but how much do we learn really??
what did you think of the fact that Miller changed some facts to write his play?
the change of abigail(11->17) is strange
no problem with that, it wasn't supposed to be a historical play... though what historical play is 'historical' in the historical sense of meaning of the word
it would seem logical when abigail was eleven, but when she is 17, her behaiour is strange
many people who have only seen the play will assume thast that is the case
a woman spurned...
I wish Miller had changed the names of the characters etc so that he could still write about Salem but without misinforming people
how many of those who have seen the movie do you think would be bothered to read about Salem and realise that Abi was actually 11 and didnt have revenge at heart
it changes the way people look at the things
miller wanted to make abigail bad
a concpiracy
so if miller had changed the names, but still told the same tale, it would have been better
I think he had two concerns
1. communism and the fact that he realised the similarity between the witch hunt and communist hunt
2. he wanted to write a good play
3. and make money
so he didnt mind sacrificing certain things
but I really wish he hadnt
what do you think of elizabeth?
i liked elizabeth, though she could have said that her husband had been makingout with abigail
in the court
that was sad, wasnt it?
trying to protect her husband's name...
she lied
it sounds so inconceivable in some ways
considering where the morals are today
how easily people get in and out of marriages
rather than going around bad mouthing abi and her husband, she tried to protect him
and in a way, she protected abi too
conflict between lawful and good
if she had been lawful neutral, she would probably have saved them
conflict between dignity and self gratification?
I am sure she would have liked to see Abi got punished...
she actually blamed her husband for not telling others about his affair with Abi
but she never did it herself
conflict between telling the truth and saving his husband
which tragically turned out the other way round
what do you think about the whole trial
the courty bit i mean
they were nonsensical
very different from what we are used to, surely
the judge was very unlikeable
very 'he said/she said'
who'd need a court when you have a girl acusing you of witchcraft, the court wsn't able to prevent the deaths of the acused even when they knew they weren't guilty
a court to prove them innocent?
do you think Proctor should have confessed?
did you wish he did while reading?
he could have confessed by his name but not blamed others
but that wasnt an option
but if they did, probably the events wouldnt have developed as they did afterwards
if they had, well, they would have been saved, but who else?
they could not save others by confessing
they could not save them... but if everyone confessed
if they'd confess it'll mean the other acused were guilty
yes, but they could say "Praise lord, praiselord, i was bad, i love jesus etc
the fact that those good people did not confess/ did not give in and died made Salem stand out in the history so much and had the effect on theocracy
though, looking in that direction, it hasn't really changed that much there
well at least it changed seemingly
it was lawful to blame people for witchcraft and punish them in those days
not anymore
but we have different evils which are similar today
anyone who's different in any way
anyone you can blame
also... do you feel that sometimes these so-called enemies are created to serve greater purposes?
you need to blame someone
or divert people's attention somewhere else
who was your favourite character?
hale
and corey too
the Proctors
in the beginnig hale was the person i did not like
but in the end i liked him the best
hale because of his transformation and the fact that he didnt mind admitting that what they were doing was wrong
and Giles was just plain cool
the way he resisted
btw, how would you find a witch, whenyou really believed that they existed in that form
that you lived in a society like that
and witchery would be a dangerous and serious problem
then you understnad the need that witches must be killed
or brought over to God
it is so amazing though
that someone's mere suggestion would be enugh to get someone hanged
burned
how did the judge speak about witchcraft?
that it was acrime where there could be no witnesses
unless there were other witches
and only the witch, the victim and other witches could tell
nothing for CSI to work on
so no way out?
but still, how to find a witch, if it was really important?
so that they wouldn't bring people over to the devil's side
when looking from that time's point of view
when puting oneself to the pointofview of the 16th century fanatical christian
then witches are certainly a problem
and you had to get rid of them
so you hadno physical evidene
just the victim's/witches/other witch's confession
motives are possible too
though you could explain it that the witch's motive was to serve satan
the accusers claimed that
that the witches served satan
but how about their motives?
the names picked?
the judge had two possibilities: to believe or not believe abigail
first it was the people noone liked in the society
but then the personal vendettas were brought into play
funny thing is that none is safe
if judge turned against them, they could have even blamed the judge
bit would have been unwiseut you can be safe when you blame your neighbour before he blames you
imagine living in such an atmosphere
noone is safe
kind of 1984
and you are safe not even then when you are totally commited
in 1984 you were kind of safe when you were totally blindly loyal to the party
but if someone blamed you?
no way to clean your name
the party knew
if or if not you were loyal
they didn't have the witch dilemma
they were omniscient
remember how you could get away when you blamed someone else and did a lot of praiselording
it was kindof a hot potato
only way to sort the problem was to find a witch... or witches
so do you think you would confess?
pyramid blaming
i can very well imagnie such little girls blaming others and stuff
I think I can imagine living in Salem as well... afraid to do/say anything in case someone decides to find you ... rather uncomfortable
and just the thought that your word has no value if you are blamed
or what kind of person you have been
what kind of life you have led
it adds up to nothing
and if you send someone to death, how can you live with yourself afterwards?
in the first chapters everyone is like' no, they would not hang anyone'...
was there any possiblility of avoiding the thing
of course, if people were perfect...
men would be angels?
and there were no laws?
there's gotta be at least some laws
if children hadnt got ill, probably there hadnt been a salem incident
true
but what about the kids having fresh air and witching in the forest
was its reason too that sickness
that was boredom i guess
imagine a life nothing is allowed
pray, work and sleep
what do you think of tituba?
she's ok
i liked how tituba portrayed devil
a nice man, cmoking a cigar, will take me back to Barbados
concerning tituba....well, she was kind of a pagan
she was a native
so probably she was
a mix of christianity and paganism
and probably the whites forced her to convert to 'civilize' her
to her, witching was not such a bad thing at all
part of the culture
kind of home remedies
The character I most despise is Anne Putnam Sr. If any of you have researched the Salem Witch Trials in more depth, it is to be found that it is she who fed her daughter the names of women she had slight grudges against. She utterly used her child for her own malicious will. It's sad enough that little girls had that much control over the community, but being manipulated by an adult, who is supposed to be honest and grown up? That's disgusting.
And to think that this happened in the U.S.? It's rather embarassing that in America, the word of a bunch of a little girls was used as evidence in a court and death sentences?
In Act I of Arthur Miller's play, The Crucible, the characters of Abigail, Betty, and thier friends charge many of the villagers with the serious crime of witchcraft. Although Abigail really gets the ball rolling on the salem witch hunt, The entire community seems quite ready to accept that thier are witches in thier midst. Why do you think that all of these Puritans are so easily drawn in and why do they play along with the girls?
The setting of the play was in the midst of the witch hunts in the states. This was more or less an extension of the Inquisition in Europe, and it was perfectly logical to people that there may be witches and warlocks. After all, the Church had told them they were present, and the Church was to be trusted in all things. It was a time when people were suspicious and scared. The girls played on these feeling among the townspeople.
because it was common to think that it was true and that they wouldn't lie because they were puritans.
Miller's position in writing The Crucible was to demonstrate the desperate desire everyone has deep down to find answers to things they can't explain, and furthermore, their vulnerability in that they are willing to stand behind the most absurd causes in order to find explanations. The puritains were a good example bcause their faith lends credibility to the fact that they should not have been looking for answers- their faith should have been enough to sustain them and yet, they are human- they still seek answers. This is a direct parallel to McCarthyism in the US, as people were looking for an answer to all the issues going on in the country (particularly Communism), and they were willing to accept the rediculous and unfair mesasures that McCarthy was using.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo93
Just to mention for those who haven't already heard me rave about this play in other threads, I WORSHIP this play. :D
I read it, and really liked it, but then we studied it in Drama and my teacher is obsessive so she picked it apart until it died. I remember us discussing the various undertones of the scene with the bird on the rafters. *sigh*