The ORIGINAL VERSION of WAR and PEACE

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Originally Posted by jessface

Aren't the very qualities that Andrei falls for Natasha, her graceful and nimble dancing, her singing, her quick and expressive face and natures, the ones that disappear after she has children? So if Andrei did marry her it would all fall apart once natasha lost such things which attracted him. Pierre, although i still don't quite get how Natasha could have sexual attraction for someone who throughout the book is described as portly and rounded, on the other hand falls for Natasha over a period of years (instead of at one dance) and gets to know her for herself instead of the outside childish exterior.

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Here are some excellent ideas, jessface !

I think that Tolstoy wanted to show that real, deep love develops over a period of years and after knowing the person really well, and is not sparked suddenly at one glamourous event.

That's why Andrey rejected Natasha so hastily ( after episode with Anatole ) because he hadn't acquired a deep understanding of her soul and real character. He was only interested in qualities that gave him pleasure.

I think that Tolstoy wanted to show that, although romantic and passionate love is exciting and intoxicating, it's the compassionate love that contributes to a good, long-lasting marriage.

After all, he did marry a woman ( Sonya Behrs ) whose family he had known for a number of years, and they were happy for the first 15 years of their marriage ! And, apparently ( according to some sources ), he wasn't madly in love with her when he married her !

With regard to Natasha falling for the unattractive Pierre, Tolstoy was probably making a case for himself -- he himself was unattractive, yet he made a good match. In general, in Tolstoy's novels, the attractive hero gets the girl at first, but then loses her later on ( e.g. Vronsky and Anna ) and the unattractive hero, although a loser at first, achieves long-lasting happiness later ( e.g. Levin and Kitty ).

Another point for compassionate love vs romantic !

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Originally Posted by Swanduckling

After reading numerous intellectual and grand posts on this thread, I felt that this discussion is getting a bit too serious. So I decided to post some delightful jokes to lighten the mood :


1 ) On the nature of pride :

Natasha is dancing at her first ball with Pierre Bezukhov. She notices dirt on his boots and points it out airily :

" Pierre, you have dirt on your boots ! ". Pierre walks out of the ballroom and, feeling dishonoured, shoots himself.

Next, Natasha is dancing with Prince Andrey. The same situation occurs. Andrey leaves the ballroom and shoots himself out of shame.

Lastly, Natasha is dancing with a simple army officer Rzhevsky. She points out the dirt on his boots. He laughs it off and says : " Oh, it's not dirt, it's " cow-mud " that I stepped in this morning as I was walking thru the cow-shed. Don't worry, as soon as it dries, it will fall off all by itself ! " ;)



2 ) On the nature of romantic love : :angel:


Beautiful lake. Graceful swans floating by. Lovely Natasha and simple army officer Rzhevsky walking by. Natasha turns to him and asks him rapturously :

" Lieutenant Rzhevsky, could you love someone the way these swans do ? ".

Scandalized, Rzhevsky shoots back : " What ?!! Right there... , in the ice-cold water ?!! " :lol:

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You have a very interesting, although rather vulgar, take on things, Swanducky ! But I guess your jokes illustrate very vividly how the romantic ideals are trampled upon by the harsh, unpleasant reality of life !

And who is Rzhevsky, anyways ? And where on earth did you hear such jokes ?

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Originally Posted by olichka

You have a very interesting, although rather vulgar, take on things, Swanducky ! But I guess your jokes illustrate very vividly how the romantic ideals are trampled upon by the harsh, unpleasant reality of life !

And who is Rzhevsky, anyways ? And where on earth did you hear such jokes ?

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I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else by posting these jokes on your thread, olichka, I just wanted to make fun of Tolstoy's penchant for sappy, " purified " love stories. Real life and relationships, after all, are very different --- " colder " and " muddier " ! ( As you yourself have concluded from the jokes ! ).

As to where I heard the jokes, I stumbled across them accidentally when I was looking up the novel on the Internet. Seems like Rzhevsky is a crude officer character from some Russian movie " Hussar's Ballad " set in 1812.

I'm in the middle of book 8 where Natasha has just been saved from a terrible mistake.

It seems to me that Natasha (at this point in the story), although she's just learned a big lesson, still has a lot to learn about love.

She seems to fall in and out of love too easily. She seems to have a hard time growing up and facing reality.

And looking forward to watching her character develop further.

I'd go further to say that I'm kinda' glad Natasha got that kick in that pants! She is one of those people who gets far too much attention.

It seems everything rotates around her - like her problems and feelings are all there is in the world - she seems to think so.

I know she develops further, and I'm looking forward to seeing her do so. She needs a heck of a lot more compassion than she has - so far it's just falling in and out of love.

Tolstoy's doing this well - showing the reader that love is a lot deeper than that.

(I must admit though, I'm a sucker for all those romantic scenes with her and Andrei - especially the guy that plays his part in the 2007 version of the movie - hoo hoo!)

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Originally Posted by WildCityWoman

I'm in the middle of book 8 where Natasha has just been saved from a terrible mistake.

It seems to me that Natasha (at this point in the story), although she's just learned a big lesson, still has a lot to learn about love.

She seems to fall in and out of love too easily. She seems to have a hard time growing up and facing reality.

And looking forward to watching her character develop further.

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Perhaps a whole year of waiting for a fiance who's away the whole time is too much for a 17-year-old ? Especially since their courtship was only --- what --- 3 weeks ? Can one really cement a love relationship in such a short time ?


Maybe Andrey should have married her first and then they could have gone abroad for his treatments !

I don't see that as being the only reason - Natasha seems to be easily swayed, it seems to me.

But like you say, she is only 17.

(I don't know why, but I thought she was 20 in this part of the book)

It's nice that you're still here, Cygnet . . . that's what a swan's duckling is, a cygnet -but you knew that, didn't you?

How far are you in this story - I'm working my way through Book 9 right now.

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Originally Posted by WildCityWoman

It's nice that you're still here, Cygnet . . . that's what a swan's duckling is, a cygnet -but you knew that, didn't you?

How far are you in this story - I'm working my way through Book 9 right now.

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Hi ! I think that you're confusing me with someone else : I'm Swanduckling, not Cygnet ! And I read the book a long time ago ! But I'm glad you're agreeing with me about Natasha's age being a factor.

Hi again, WildCityWoman !

Actually, you may have estimated Natasha's age a bit closer than I have.

In the summer of 1805, she's described as being 13. In 1809 she's 16 ( but

maybe before the summer ? Please check the season for me ! ). Therefore,

at the time of the ball which is on Dec.31, 1809, she's definitely 17. By Jan.

1811, the time of her infatuation with Anatole, she's 18. But since we don't

know her exact birthdate, she may be 19.


Still, if she was 17-18 at the time of Andrey's proposal, that's still very

young to make a serious commitment, particularly after a very short, 3-week

courtship. And since Andrey was away for a whole year and wasn't " feeding " the relationship,

it's understandable why she got interested in a new person. She also felt neglected by him, as

when she showed displeasure when reading about his travels and so was vulnerable to Anatole's

admiring and flattering attentions.

That's what I think. Anyways, I think that a 3-week courtship is very unrealistic.

Now days, yes. But, before 80 to 90 years women got married by 14-15, so Natasha was nothing strange.

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Originally Posted by Swanduckling

Anyways, I think that a 3-week courtship is very unrealistic.

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I'm reconsidering this statement. Since Andrey spent whole days,

every day visiting Natasha, then maybe it was enough time

for them to get to know each other well.


Tolstoy's courtship of his own wife was only 2 weeks ( and she was 18

at the time ) , but then he had known her since she was a child ! And he

married her a month later, didn't leave her for a whole year !


I think before we decide this question, we need to know more about the

marriage/courtship traditions in Russia at the beginning of the 19th Century.

Does anyone know of a book on this subject matter ?

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Originally Posted by Swanduckling

Hi ! I think that you're confusing me with someone else : I'm Swanduckling, not Cygnet ! And I read the book a long time ago ! But I'm glad you're agreeing with me about Natasha's age being a factor.

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And I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying to you about your user name - swans do not have ducklings - they have 'cygnets'.

Anyway - you don't have to reply - it's more important that we discuss W & P.

1) Poruchik is dancing with Natasha Rostova at a ball. Suddenly he gets the urge to go to the little boys' room. As a well-educated young gentleman he cannot say to his lady where he's going. So he says :


- Natasha, I beg your gracious beauty to excuse me for 5 minutes to go check on my horse if he's being fed properly in the stables.


He returns in 5 minutes wet from boots to the head.


- Is the weather rainy ?


- No, windy.


2 ) Colonel asks Poruchik how he manages to get money for booze and stuff.

- Easy. Come to a woman, grab her tenderly from behind, kiss her neck and she would give you anything you ask for.


The Colonel came home and did what Poruchik said. Colonel's wife :

- Poruchik, love, do you need more money ?


3 ) Natasha calls Poruchik.

- My husband went to play cards tonight.

- Hm.

- He'll return tomorrow.

- Ah ?

- I'm all alone.

- So ?

- I'm lying in my bed, completement au naturel. :blush:

- And ?

- Do you want to come over and keep me company ?

- Gotcha ! I'll be right there !

Hello again !

I posted some jokes on the " Funny jokes to lighten the forum " thread. Go there and regale yourselves ! :)