Will Believers ever Unite?

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Even with above:

Finite Life and Eternal Damnation makes God Unjust. We should not try to justify the unjustifiable even for a God.



Even as human beings we have outlawed Torture. For God to Torture for all Eternity for mere unbelief in him - makes God the most vilest, hideous monster that human mind can concieve - there is nothing loving about such a God. There is nothing compassionate about this God. Therefore the quicker we get rid of these kinds of understanding of God then so much better for us.

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I think it goes a bit further than mere unbelief, mon ami. While I know that many teach that as their cornerstone, a statement of belief is simply that. I can say I believe I can fly but it will not cause me to suddenly grow wings. As I said, Jesus taught love, and Paul in I Corinthians 13 expounds on the topic, that without it, the rest is useless. John 1,2, and 3 all talk of love as the key. Many other parts of the New Testament refer to love as key. Hatred has no place in religion, and if it is there, I suggest that the person examin themselves, not everyone else for the problem. Love, or the lack thereof, will go a long way with God. People see the outside, they always have. God sees the heart, what makes a person who he or she is at the very core. Like I said, many may be in for a shock come doomsday...

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

As I said, Jesus taught love, and Paul in I Corinthians 13 expounds on the topic, that without it, the rest is useless. John 1,2, and 3 all talk of love as the key.

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Love and Compassion is also taught by Buddha but Buddhist "Nirvana" is Godless. Hence they too would end up burning in hell for rejection of God.

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Many other parts of the New Testament refer to love as key.

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If Love is the key - how does that equate with Eternal Torture?

Buddhist also teach love and compassion for all life but Buddhist Nirvana is Godless.

Therefore we must seek a better understanding of "God" that goes beyond the term "believers" and "unbelievers" and "Eternal Damanation"...

Love is key (in a broad sense) for the motive the Lord Christ had in becoming man, living life amongst us then giving up his life as a substitute sacrifice for sin. Eternal Torture is the result of rejecting the Lord Christ standing in our place. Personally I believe that the Holiness of God required the VERY strong reaction to sin. In God's eye it is no minor thing but a rejection of the creature to the creator. I doubt anyone can understand what the Lord Christ suffered on the cross but we have a glimpse of it from His cry of 'My God My God why has thou forsaken me as recorded in Mark. Mankind being human it is admitted that it is hard to grasp the foreverness of God but does not change the conditions. Love is ultimately the greatest expression of God's regard for his creations and His desire to be glorified in His Son. Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Love and Compassion is also taught by Buddha but Buddhist "Nirvana" is Godless. Hence they too would end up burning in hell for rejection of God.



If Love is the key - how does that equate with Eternal Torture?

Buddhist also teach love and compassion for all life but Buddhist Nirvana is Godless.

Therefore we must seek a better understanding of "God" that goes beyond the term "believers" and "unbelievers" and "Eternal Damanation"...

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From what I have read of your statements on the evolution vs. creationism thread, I am not really certain that you seek an understanding of God at all, since you do not believe that God exists. But I am not your judge, as I have always pointed out. Is it the "eternal damnation" hurtle that you are finding difficulty getting out of the way? Is that your major stumbling block?

OK. Let me put this in terms of our court system. Persons A, B and C are involved in a robbery in which person A murders a man. Person B has nothing to do with the murder, and did not pull the trigger. Person C merely drove the car. All three are charged with the murder and in some states, all can receive the death penalty. Certainly all will receive longer sentences because of person A's actions. Is this justice? Two who had no hand in the murder, and who even berate the murderer, suffer because of what person A did?

You may say, well, they had knowledge of the crime, and were there. True. So do people know, whether they believe in God or not, that what they are doing is right or wrong. I say that ethics and morality extend only to what one would do if one were certain no one would ever find out. That is your core of ethics and morality.

So if you do not believe in God, or even if you do, what you are inside your soul is what you are. The outside may look good, may pass inspection. God inspects the heart and soul. To be perfectly frank, it amazes me that any of us think we are worthy of heaven. There is something called "Grace". And God said, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy." You may never understand what I am saying, I don't know. But think about it, OK? God bless.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...es/Friends.gif

1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women in iraq, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents? e
2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?
3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...i dont mean to offend anyone i just want some answers

The probability of believers uniting is about the same as humans learning to love the process of re-evaluation. Isn't that the key to any change of mindset?

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Originally Posted by stephofthenight

1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women in iraq, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents? e
2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?
3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...i dont mean to offend anyone i just want some answers

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First of all, I totally understand how you are feeling. Life can really be unfair sometimes. It can really be hard to make since of things. Especially when your heart is hurting. I think your questions are valid and common.

Your first question has to do with predestination. The idea that God plans out every step you take. That’s not really how it works. God gives us all choices had then hopes we choose well. The same is true in parenthood. A parent might say you have to clean your room in order to go out on the weekend. Then it’s the child’s choice. If they choose not to clean their room they have chosen to stay in on the weekend. God’s plan is perfect. It’s when people make bad choices that things get screwed up. God didn’t plan for innocent men and women in Iraq to die, but people have screwed things up. The Bible says that God wants everyone to go to heaven. It also says that all things work together to good for those who love God. Suffering can often bring us closer to God. Personally (this is my own belief that I can’t find a scripture to back up) I think that our worldly suffering is secondary to the big issue which is eternal salvation. I’ve often heard it said that we all have a sack of rocks to drag, meaning that we all have something to deal with and we all have a burden to carry.

Your second point was about the image of God. People have free will. We can choose to be godly or not. Even when we attempt godliness we fall short, because while we are made in the image of God, we are not God or gods ourselves.

The third thing you mentioned was suicide. I don’t know where it says one goes to hell for suicide. I know everyone says that Judas was condemned to hell for taking his life, but I think that it was a forgiveness issue. Christ would have forgiven him. He did not forgive himself. He lost his faith. I have known people who have taken their own lives. I have battled with the desire myself. It’s not for us to say if someone goes to Heaven or Hell, that is only up to God. And remember that God is a loving and forgiving God. Only He knows the heart of man.

I hope you are able to work things out in your heart.

thanks...leviticus has the quotes. and umm. there is something else i want to ask about... god is agains homosexuality right? well he forgives undyingly right? so like if i was bi and asked for forgivness every day, i would still be forgiven right?

Ummm is forgivness based on 'he who acknowledges his sin and repents, then does not repeat it after he has acknowledged it as a sin.

As far as I know --in my religion anyway-- the only truly unforgivable sin is to purposly and delibratly commit a sin when you know and acknowledge it to be one. It comes under turning your face against God. At least thats what Ive always thought.

There is a lot written in the Bible about homosexuality. I believe that the only place we can go to find out the truth about God is the Bible. God will forgive undyingly, there is nothing to terrible for God to forgive. And there is no new sin in the world, so it’s been addressed. It’s not for me to judge, all I can do is go through the scriptures and see what it says about homosexuality. That gives me a very unpopular and politically incorrect view.
No sin is any greater than another. I think a lot of people are really judgmental about homosexuality like they are above sin. I just always wonder what’s going on in their lives. We all have a temptation to deal with.

If you think it’s wrong then you need to go to God in prayer and ask for help. The thing about forgiveness is that it hinges upon repentance. Sometimes a temptation can feel too great to overcome alone, but you’re not alone if God is with you.

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

From what I have read of your statements on the evolution vs. creationism thread, I am not really certain that you seek an understanding of God at all, since you do not believe that God exists.

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Even if God does not exist - "God" has been one of the Greatest Ideas of Humanity for All Time. We can, even in this context, try to develop a better understanding of this Idea of God, and how it has shaped humanity over the thousands of years of human history.

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But I am not your judge, as I have always pointed out.

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No one can judge you. We judge ourselves. True Punishment is living with the consequences of your actions in time.

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Is it the "eternal damnation" hurtle that you are finding difficulty getting out of the way? Is that your major stumbling block?

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No. It is this that highlights the contradiction in our Ideas of God. All loving God and Eternal Damnation - Contradictory. Just like Omniscience and Omnipotent etc are contradictory.

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OK. Let me put this in terms of our court system. Persons A, B and C are involved in a robbery in which person A murders a man. Person B has nothing to do with the murder, and did not pull the trigger. Person C merely drove the car. All three are charged with the murder and in some states, all can receive the death penalty. Certainly all will receive longer sentences because of person A's actions. Is this justice? Two who had no hand in the murder, and who even berate the murderer, suffer because of what person A did?

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We are talking about Man and God and not Man and Man.

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I say that ethics and morality extend only to what one would do if one were certain no one would ever find out. That is your core of ethics and morality.

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This is not what research points to. Secular European societies with no capital punishment have vastly lower homicide rates than America. I think we have evolved to be ethical animals regardless of a belief in a God.

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So if you do not believe in God, or even if you do, what you are inside your soul is what you are.

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That is why "God", "Allah", "Nirvana", "Tao" and "Brahman-Atman" have always been subjective experiences of the individual.

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Originally Posted by Nossa

It takes WAY more than what you stated to unite people from different religions, and even people from the same religion but different cults. I personally pray that all believers would unite someday, and we'll actually forget for ONE second that we may not be from the same religion, but heck we're following the same God...that's good enough for me.
But this is easier said than done if you ask me, from what I see, the idea of superiority is the dominating idea now, everyone is so proud of his/her religion to the extent that they resent and hate people from other religions and cults, and considering them the wrong and evil side.
So I believe that unitll people change thier attitude towards each other, there will be NO unity.

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Disagree with, yes; hate, no. Think it's the wrong side, yes; think it's the evil side, no. It's more complex than you think. I've said this before, and I'll probably say it again: there, logically, must be one faith that's at least a little closer to the truth than others (even agnosticism involves some faith, in the negative sense). If you say that all religions are equally acceptable, you'd better start saying that all answers to everything are equally acceptable. The problem is that people begin by assuming that God/spirituality are not real in the same sense as things like mathematics, science, psychology, history, etc., but even if atheism is correct, that still means that there is some fact about the spiritual world (namely that it wouldn't exist). Not that I am atheist, mind you.

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Love and Compassion is also taught by Buddha but Buddhist "Nirvana" is Godless. Hence they too would end up burning in hell for rejection of God.



If Love is the key - how does that equate with Eternal Torture?

Buddhist also teach love and compassion for all life but Buddhist Nirvana is Godless.

Therefore we must seek a better understanding of "God" that goes beyond the term "believers" and "unbelievers" and "Eternal Damanation"...

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Eternal torture? Do you recognize symbolism? We don't know for sure that Hell is actually going to be enforced punishment... Not that I necessarily agree with it, or even know what to think about Hell, but C.S. Lewis talked about Hell being the result of unchecked progression (eternity is a freakin' long time) of personal faults and sins. Further, consider that a parent punishes out of love. Consider further the state of humanity: screwed up, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very badly... Very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very BAD. We all deserve Hell. It's just a question of who's gonna take one of the "Get out of Jail Free" cards.

Hell was made up by christians, so they can scare people into joining their cult. Once there's a good god there needs to be a bad god. This gives the "good god" more power and likability.

"Mankind has just as much need for an evil god as for a good god; it doesn't have to thank mere tolerance and humanitarianism for its own existence. . . . What would be the value of a god who knew nothing of anger, revenge, envy, scorn, cunning, violence?"
-Nietzsche, Antichrist

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

Hell was made up by christians, so they can scare people into joining their cult. Once there's a good god there needs to be a bad god. This gives the "good god" more power and likability.

"Mankind has just as much need for an evil god as for a good god; it doesn't have to thank mere tolerance and humanitarianism for its own existence. . . . What would be the value of a god who knew nothing of anger, revenge, envy, scorn, cunning, violence?"
-Nietzsche, Antichrist

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Completely false. Christians may be guilty of misinterpreting the actual nature of Hell, but they didn't make it up. Fear may drive some people to believe, but it won't get them into heaven. That requires trust and love.