Altruism, a possibility, a hope, or just stupid

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

And did you read the rest of my post! You are the one making a fool out of yourself. You are obviously showing hostility by criticizing every post I make on this forum.

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I surely did, but the part I quoted was the part I wanted to address. No hostility intended. I asked a couple of questions and made what seemed to me to be a reasonable inferrence.

You're enjoyable to debate. Be complimented.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

I didn't say I agreed with Nietzsche did I? I brought up someone that hated altruism in order to show a different perspective. I wasn't diminishing anyone, and your vicious posts aren't contributing to the topic, so cut it.

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"Vicious"? Hmmm...

No - I need not "cut" anything. As I have had moderators explain to me before when I didn't like what was being said to me: once you put an opinion on a public forum, you ought to expect that it might be critiqued or challenged. I assumed this was understood.

I believe that Altruism lies in all of us, and to that point I suppose I do accept it's existence. What about this for example-

You see a needy child crying on the television. A tele-sponsership-call in show and what not. If at first inclination, your heart grieves for the crying child, does this not appear to be a seed of Altruism? Even if, for just a single moment, a spark rises in us, and we reach for the telephone and pocket book.
I am entirely unsure of what to make of this, whether its logical or not. But to myself it makes alot of sense. Even if it is a small, unworthy spark of Altruism, it is still remarkable.
What if there is born into this world, a person who can ignite said spark and carry it forth unto humanity. Could that be possible?

this is exciting. Good Posts everyone!

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

Guys like Nietzsche would ridicule you for saying that, but I can feel where you're coming from.

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That is of course considering that I give a rip about what Nietzsche would have to say to me. ;) Please don't take this as an attack because I see what your intention was for your post, but I do agree with RedZepplin that there are ways to make your point without sounding condescending. I know that wasn't your intention, but that is the way that it came off.

Thanks Red, and yes I am a her ;)

Looking at it now, I've realized I worded it poorly.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

Looking at it now, I've realized I worded it poorly.

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Welcome to the club - I think it's a rite of passage here to do this (I've had my share for sure). :)

Hello
I am really interested in this topic. i cant say that altruism doesnt exist. Maybe if there were more examples provided by some philosophers about altuism it would help.

After reading the previous posts i realized that euthanasia(spell check needed) was not mentioned. I dont believe that any person assisting in someones death generates a good feeling towards him/herself. Nor in any way can the assist in "suicide" have any form of selfishness. If i were to help a friend die do to "exceptional" and "extreme" circumstances, then i would do so solely for the purpose of helping him/her. i know the concept of euthanasia has conflicting views but i believe that it is revelant towards this discussion.

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Originally Posted by AstroCity

Hello
I am really interested in this topic. i cant say that altruism doesnt exist. Maybe if there were more examples provided by some philosophers about altuism it would help.

After reading the previous posts i realized that euthanasia(spell check needed) was not mentioned. I dont believe that any person assisting in someones death generates a good feeling towards him/herself. Nor in any way can the assist in "suicide" have any form of selfishness. If i were to help a friend die do to "exceptional" and "extreme" circumstances, then i would do so solely for the purpose of helping him/her. i know the concept of euthanasia has conflicting views but i believe that it is revelant towards this discussion.

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Depends on how you look at euthenasia Astro. I think the majority of people, at least people I've talked to, consider euthenasia as murder. Whether someone wants you to kill them or not, the act of taking a life before their time still fits under at least my defintion of murder. The person who was assisting this suicide probably does not have anything but the best intentions, it does not however make the act right. That person is playing God in that situation, which is a sin. A pretty good example of vanity and egoism, really. This is of course according to most Judeo-Christian ideals.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

Looking at it now, I've realized I worded it poorly.

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I certainly won't be the first to cast a stone, hyper. Believe me, if I had a nickle for ever stupid, misguided post I've written, I'd be a rich woman. ;)

ADUDAEWEN,

I do not believe that "every" person assisting in suicide thinks that they are God nor does in this situation "every" person can be defined by egoism. (there could be but not all. if we find even 1 sound eample or situation of altruism then we can state that it possibly exists.)

For example people place animals to "sleep" to prevent suffering. Clearly this is no attempt at playing god. Placing animal to "sleep" under "extreme" circumstances is also not animal cruelty or making the assistant feel like god, but is a definition of euthanasia.
If you can link euthanasia to "playing god" then i can also link "playing god" to helping a homeless man asking for money.
In helping out a homless man you are in control of the result which is, you either give him/her some change or not. this man is asking your for help because of his current situation and you are in control of what decision is made. I am sure i can go on but i dont want to deviate from what i wanted to argue.

In a sense i was just trying to create a similarity to helping a homeless beggar to euthanasia. Think of the homeless man asking for change you do not know him yet you helping him or not is up to you. the decision is made by you and the result of giving him/her money creates a non-altruistic feeling (you in this situation feel good about yourself).
if it was a situation where the result was death(euthanasia) then its result would again not be altruistic( you feel good because you did end his/her "extreme"sufferring).
(the above-mentioned resuslts could be the opposite and according to your personal beliefs still be altruistic. Example if you didnt help the beggar you felt good knowing he/she didnt spend it on beer. or you feel good that you didnt help him/her kill him/herself. )

if now, my best friend was homeless, he is sufferring, and i saw him/her asking for money i would be obligated to give it and still feel good as a result. the result would still not result in altruism.
in euthanasia the situation is different my best friend in "extreme" situation is suffering and i have a choice to help him/her. the result in ending their life i believe would be altruism. the act was solely selfless. my best friends death brings no form of good to me. yet i had a choice and both could be the right ones but helping to end his suffering would be selfless. .

First off, I find it very frightening that you are likening a hand out with euthenasia. It seems to display a lack of respect for life(I of course don't wish to say that you have a lack of respect for life, that is just how it comes off in your post). While you are in control of a handout, that is not the same thing as taking a human life, no matter what the situation is. As a Christian, I feel compelled to assist the homeless because God teaches us to take care of those who are less fortunate. Euthenasia is the taking of a life before it has run the course God has preordained to it. Suicide is of course, a sin in the bible. So is despair, it could be said, because it is doubting God's plan. Putting an animal is not the same, because animals do not have souls. I am an animal lover, and I don't want to sound like I am not sympathetic to them, but killing an animal is NOT the same thing as killing a human being.
Playing God does not include doing deeds for other people. God charges us with the responsibility to take care of others. God, however doesn't ever condone euthenasia. And whether a person thinks they are playing God doesn't matter because they are when they assist in a suicide. Just because a person doesn't think that stealing is wrong, is it then okay for them to steal? Ignorance of the law is no excuse( and that includes Biblical law).

There are forms of euthanasia. I would more like to concentrate on Passive Euthanasia. for example removing life support. By doing this, the life support equipment is removed and nature takes its course. If i assist in removing this support then i am making a decision for suppose, a person i really cared for. i believe this decision to be selfless and unrewarding.

and i have the utmost respect for human life. however, i think that your assumption on disrespect towards human life("euthanasia") in my argument, i believe, could be aimed more towards a lack of respect for Christian beliefs, not human life. (And i do not have disrespect for life or religion and do apologize if i sounded like i did)

I also believe, using the above-mentioned example, that keeping a person on a machine for survival because if not for that machine the person would clearly not survive contradicts your opposition against euthanasia. in respect to Christianity, if one has a time and date for their death already written, then it would also be wrong to keep that person on a machine, because their time to die could have passed meaning the life support is keeping the person from running nature's course.
The machine is the assistant that is keeping the person from running nature's course
I am the assistant who removes the machine so that person can run nature's course.

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Originally Posted by AstroCity

I also believe, using the above-mentioned example, that keeping a person on a machine for survival because if not for that machine the person would clearly not survive contradicts your opposition against euthanasia. in respect to Christianity, if one has a time and date for their death already written, then it would also be wrong to keep that person on a machine, because their time to die could have passed meaning the life support is keeping the person from running nature's course.
The machine is the assistant that is keeping the person from running nature's course
I am the assistant who removes the machine so that person can run nature's course.

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That certainly is an interesting perspective, and logically it makes a lot of sense. I guess that would all depend on a person's feelings toward life support. Most times, when a person is taken off of life support, it is because they have no brain waves and no/little chance of recovery. Are they truly alive at that point, or have they already died and their body is simply living on? Another question could be, if the body is a shell(as is held in most Christian beliefs) and there is no brain activity, is the soul still present? Intriguing questions.
You make a good point though.

A muslim friend of mine from Nigeria and I were talking about kindness. I told him how when I was at my lowest financially and mentally...a complete doldrums, that I had given a bag of oranges to a homeless man. The man's response was to say, "God bless you." Abdul told me that his blessing may have been the "the most honest and sincere" blessing that I could receive. I think that to say that altruism is somehow less sincere because of any self affectations. Well, I am not buying my way into heaven, but I may have eased anothers hardship by a little.

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Originally Posted by B-Mental

A muslim friend of mine from Nigeria and I were talking about kindness. I told him how when I was at my lowest financially and mentally...a complete doldrums, that I had given a bag of oranges to a homeless man. The man's response was to say, "God bless you." Abdul told me that his blessing may have been the "the most honest and sincere" blessing that I could receive. I think that to say that altruism is somehow less sincere because of any self affectations. Well, I am not buying my way into heaven, but I may have eased anothers hardship by a little.

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Agreed!:D

<and there is no brain activity, is the soul still present?>

Adudaewen, if there is a soul, what is its relationship to the brain? I've never really understood the distinction between soul, spirit, mind and brain in religious thought (I say religious thought, because it seems to me that religion introduced the concept of soul and spirit). Mind and brain I can cope with: the mind is brain-dependent, an electrical side-effect of the brain.

If there is such a thing as the soul, and it isn't physical, then the problem is really how a non-physical entity can inhabit a physical one. Once you answer that question, then the body becomes irrelevant, as the soul, if it existed, could inhabit anything physical.

Anyway, to get back on track with this theme of altruism: euthanasia, in my opinion is a difficult problem. I don't believe that the person who performs the act of assisting someone to die, is not having some form of benefit from the action. I would say their suffering is far greater than their benefit, but anyone who puts paid to the suffering of a loved one, is reaping some form of benefit.

I have seen someone I cared for die. They died in pain. I know that I would have benefited from being able to put an end to that suffering, so it would not be wholly altruistic. However, he would have benefited far more than I.

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Originally Posted by atiguhya padma

<and there is no brain activity, is the soul still present?>Adudaewen, if there is a soul, what is its relationship to the brain?

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In reference to the questions in my previous post, they were merely that. Questions. I don't kid myself that I have the answers to such. Those are philosophical questions that I don't feel myself qualified to answer. I firmly believe in the soul, however I will honestly say that I cannot prove my case. I leave that to persons much more intelligent and learned than I.