Are humans special or are we nothing more the mere rabbits

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Originally Posted by Turk

Seriously, as Dostoevski told: "If there's no God everything is permissible". If you say "Humans are just animals" then what's moral? What's law? What's goodness?

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What changed, exaclty? I'm not advocating any sort of brand new philosohy here, I'm stating a simple truth. Human beings are animals and are subject to the same laws of biology that all other animals are. If you want to throw away all your morals in light of that, ok, but I think I'll hang on to mine.

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Originally Posted by Turk

Every good thing we believe is completely leans on idealistic stuff and God.

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I hate to break this to you, but atheists are not exactly known for their amoral kill-crazy rampages.

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Originally Posted by Turk

And your point of view is not so different than Nazi point of view.

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It's not a real internet discussion until somebody compares me to Hitler and the Nazis, is it? I'm an anarchist, for crap's sake, I'm the opposite of a fascist.

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Originally Posted by Turk

If you think human is animal then you mean human life has no worth.

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That's exactly the non sequiter I was refering to. I happen to quite like human life, actually.

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Originally Posted by Turk

And as we know from the history this kind of mentality just brought death, famine and vanish to the mankind.

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Famine? I'm going to cause crops to fail by stating the obvious? What in the name of buttermilk pancakes are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by Turk

I believe it's certainly dependant to God. If you think opposite then i would like to know your thoughts about morality, goodness and law.

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How about empathy as a basis for morality? How about reason? How about these guys: http://www.secularhumanism.org/? If you don't think atheistic morality is possible, you need to open your eyes.

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Originally Posted by Turk

This is over-simplisizying the ideas and things. Like Aristo logic. If i would say; "we have 2 arms and monkeys have two arms too then we are monkeys" would it be sensible? You'r doing that right now. We have biological specialities so animals have too, so we are same. Is this logical?

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The word 'monkey' doesn't mean 'a thing with two arms'. It means 'a small to medium size primate with a prehensile tail that typically lives in trees in tropical countries'. 'Monkey' is a word that describes a group of things that does not include humans. 'Animal' is a word that describes a group of things that does include humans. This is extremely easy to grasp.

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Originally Posted by Turk

And i really don't understand how we can have stronger moral values if we accept "we are animal"?

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Apparently not, no. I personally think that if the only thing that keeps us in line is the promise of heaven and the threat of hell, we're a fairly sorry lot.

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Originally Posted by Turk

At the end, i can clearly say if there's no God there's no meaning in this life too. There's no good and no bad. So racism, killing, thievery etc. shouldn't be crime.

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Some of us have found plenty of meaning in our lives without God.

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Originally Posted by Turk

I wonder if since you say you believe we are animal, do you believe in evolution? If you believe it, can you say white race is supreme than black race?

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What? How do you figure? If species evolve (and they do, humans included) then black people are inherently inferior? Yes, ok, caucasians have one or two adaptations that give them an advantage when it comes to living in Scandinavia. There is no evolutionary evidence that would even remotely suggest that white people are inherently smart or better or more capable or whatever.


Sorry if it seem like I'm picking on you, Turk, but you're making me angry.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Perhaps man is not the center of the universe, and perhaps he is. We have yet to find any life form that compares with man, in his ability to think, to create, to build, and to establish systems. I make my living designing and using my human ingenuity, I entertain myself by reading literature created by other men (not animals), and I pass my time by attempting to create myself. I know no other animal that can do any of that. You want to consider yourself an animal, I choose to see you as you truly are, a jackass.

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You know what? I agree that humans are pretty great. But there is no getting around the fact that we are vertibrates, animals, mammals and primates. We have built ourselves a pretty good (although far from perfect) society up from nothing and we should be very proud of that, but saying that this makes us somehow un-animal is false. It doesn't matter how many great works of literature or amazing sculptures or breathtaking temples we build, we will still be multicellular organisms of the kingdom Animalia.

Suggestion: maybe if you want to be taken seriously, you should not label everybody who disagrees with you a jackass. That, in itself, is a fairly jackassy thing to do.

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Originally Posted by “Turk”

An animal have to kill unconsicously.

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Has anybody read the poem “Crow Tyrannosaurus”?

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Originally Posted by Turk

This is over-simplisizying the ideas and things. Like Aristo logic. If i would say; "we have 2 arms and monkeys have two arms too then we are monkeys" would it be sensible? You'r doing that right now. We have biological specialities so animals have too, so we are same. Is this logical?

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That is not my definition but a definition taken from a respectable dictionary and I think to compare that definition to 'we have 2 arms and monkeys have two arms too then we are monkeys' is a much greater over simplification.

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Originally Posted by Turk

You clash with urself here, you say we have greed, conspire, we kill, back-stab out of jealousy etc. SO WE HAVE RIGHT OF CHOOSE. But you forget saying we have free will too. An animal have to kill unconsicously. But a human doesn't have to kill, isn't have to be jealous or greedy. If you have strong moral and if you are a true believer it'll protect from this kind od manners. And i really don't understand how we can have stronger moral values if we accept "we are animal"?

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I think you have misunderstoof my point. I agree with you that humans have a choice and animals kill instinctively. However, despite having a choice, on many occasions, humans will opt for calculated, cold blooded murder, which, in my opinion, is much worse than 'animalistic' killing.

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At the end, i can clearly say if there's no God there's no meaning in this life too. There's no good and no bad. So racism, killing, thievery etc. shouldn't be crime.

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I am not sure how you reach to the conclusion that if there is no God, there is no meaning in life. If believing in the existing of a deity makes your life more meaningful to you, fair enough but please do not assume that everyone needs such a being to lead a life which is meaningful to them.

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I wonder if since you say you believe we are animal, do you believe in evolution? If you believe it, can you say white race is supreme than black race?

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I do believe in evolution; I do believe that we will evolve further. However, I don't see how race comes into play here so I will not get into that argument.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

We have yet to find any life form that compares with man, in his ability to think, to create, to build, and to establish systems.

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To this day, we are yet to find another planet similar to Earth in the space; however, does that mean that Eart is simply different planet or that Earth is not a planet?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I make my living designing and using my human ingenuity, I entertain myself by reading literature created by other men (not animals), and I pass my time by attempting to create myself. I know no other animal that can do any of that.

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I am reminded of something someone told me once. Back in the university days, when I was young and cocky (as one often is), I was somewhat critical of a close friend because she opted for a short diploma course and got a job right after the higschool (not necessarily because she could not cope with the requirements of academic world or financially she could not). When I expressed my opinions to her, in the hope that I could encourage her to get a degree, she thought for a while and said, 'you know what, not all of us want to be doctors, lawyers or teachers... This world also needs secretaries and assisstants... and talented ones for that.' I think she was mature beyond her years when she said that. Similarly, this world needs all sort of species and just because we, as humanbeings, idealise certain activities or values(however 'good' they might be for us), it does not necessarily mean that those things are the pinnacle of every species' existence.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

You want to consider yourself an animal, I choose to see you as you truly are, a jackass.

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Virgil> Please avoid name calling during discussions. Different views are not necessarily less worthy nor are their holders.

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Originally Posted by “Scheherazade”

I am not sure if human intelligence is enough to declare our species different from other animals.

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This is why this entire thread can be distilled into a game of semantics. As Taliesin put it:

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Originally Posted by “Taliesin”

Humans have the power of abstract thinking. Other animals don't.

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Surely, this is a “difference.” It obviously makes us “special,” according to the dictionary definition provided above.

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Originally Posted by “Scheherazade”

As for morality... I think it is good to keep in mind that morality is learned; not something we are born with (still so after thousands of years interestingly)

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Of course morality is learned. Moral values need to be observed and then apprehended. The fact that humans need time to do this doesn’t speak to the nature of the values which are being explored.

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Originally Posted by “Scheherazade”

Personaly speaking, by and large, I find 'animals' far more superior to humans, both physically and 'morally', and, there are some rare cases when I would much rather compared to an 'animal' than a 'humanbeing' and would consider it an honour.

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That may certainly be the case, though surely it helps to illustrate the differences between “humans” and “the rest of creation”? Being special doesn’t mean being better; being special means:

Special:

- Distinguished by some unusual quality.

- Of a distinct or particular kind or character.
- Being a particular one; particular, individual, or certain.

This could attribute itself to both “good” and “bad.” Dahmer was special. Jack the Ripper was special. Vlad the Impaler was very, very special. Humans are special because they’ve created nuclear weapons, guns with hollow points, machines like the “Rack”, symphonies, discriminations, cameras small enough to be safely inserted into a human artery, and meth.

Why have humans done these things? We have special attributes, characteristics, and abilities which distinguish us from the rest of the animals on this planet.

Whether this “speciality” specific to humans is by and large beneficial or not isn’t the main topic, though it certainly leads from that other.

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Originally Posted by “Turk”

At the end, i can clearly say if there's no God there's no meaning in this life too.

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Agreed. cuppajoe_9, you can obviously find meaning, but I think we’re agreed that given atheism as true, it ultimately isn’t rational, correct?

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Originally Posted by “Turk”

There's no good and no bad.

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Very much agreed.

“There aint no sin and there aint no virtue. There's just stuff people do.”

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Originally Posted by “Turk”

So racism, killing, thievery etc. shouldn't be crime.

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Though not here. This is too large a leap – even if designating these things as crimes wouldn't be rational, it should still be done.

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Originally Posted by “Virgil”

I again I repeat, it depends on how you set up the definitions.

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Exactly. I think that what Invictus was getting at has to do with the definitions. Some have decided that the only one to use is the genetic. What if we differentiate “special” on the ability to reason, develop complicated systems based on ideals which only exist in thought?

Why not examine human beings and rabbits in as many contexts as possible and see if humans are “special”?

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Originally Posted by “Virgil”

I proudly put man on a pedestal.

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Though I hesitate here. I find mankind's actions far too abhorrent and objectionable to praise it as a whole. For every impressive, healthy, liberating and progressive thing we've done or accomplished, we've done equally disgusting and terrible things. As Scheherazade said, “and when left to our devices, we can turn into ugly 'creatures'”.

Man is both great and ugly.

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

I personally think that if the only thing that keeps us in line is the promise of heaven and the threat of hell, we're a fairly sorry lot.

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Where, exactly, was this stated or implied? Other than your mind, of course. I can't find it in any of the posts on this thread.

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

But there is no getting around the fact that we are vertibrates, animals, mammals and primates.

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Who is saying we aren’t? Isn’t the question, “Are human beings special or are we nothing more than mere rabbits,” rather than, “Do human beings reside in the human created system of classification attributed to life on earth?”

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

It doesn't matter how many great works of literature or amazing sculptures or breathtaking temples we build, we will still be multicellular organisms of the kingdom Animalia.

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Of course we are, and of course we are infinitely different than the rest of the organisms represented there.

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

I happen to quite like human life, actually.

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You can like it to your hearts content. But in the end, as Turk pointed out, it has no more worth than a tapeworms or a dolphins, does it? After all,

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

Humans are animals, friend. There is nothing to separate us.

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Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

That may certainly be the case, though surely it helps to illustrate the differences between “humans” and “the rest of creation”?

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I agree with you. We are different from other species just like fish is different from bugs and I don't think that being different means being superior. My comment was in reply to the comments that humanbeings should be put on a pedestal because they are different in their own way.

All creatures are different and special in their own ways. Fish can stay under the water and swim, birds fly, most 'animals' can navigate through their very complicated and developed senses, some can see in the dark; they hear and smell 'better' than us. They are, we are, all different and special in our own way. Some of the other animals lack and we have do not necessarily mean we are superior.

Just to clarify my own stand on this, I consider humans just another species native to planet Earth. Simply because we are different does not mean we are superior.

I guess it's all in one's mind. I choose to regard man's nobility.

No where did I say we were perfect. Man's inhumanity to man is another distinguishing feature that separates from animals. No creature can have the complexity of thought (even wrong thought) to establish the world and society as it exists.

go Virgil!!...i support you there.and i think none exceeds the existence of humans.considering the things that which we are unique from other creatures.

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Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

You can like it to your hearts content. But in the end, as Turk pointed out, it has no more worth than a tapeworms or a dolphins, does it?

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How come I'm not allowed to value some animals over others? I value humans over tapeworms because most of my friends are humans, and humans have much better literature. I think the problem is that the original question is very misleading. It assumes that either humans have value and worth or humans are animals. There's no reason why both statements can't be true, and they are.

As an aside: just because I value the life of a human over that of a dolphin, it doesn't mean that I won't get very upset over the wholesale slaughter of dolphins, an act that is sometimes justified by saying that they are 'just animals'.

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Originally Posted by ShotGrace

Where, exactly, was this stated or implied? Other than your mind, of course. I can't find it in any of the posts on this thread.

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That was in reference to Turk's 'no morality without God', claim. Yeah, it's not the most rational response ever, but I was angry.

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Originally Posted by ShotGrace

Agreed. cuppajoe_9, you can obviously find meaning, but I think we’re agreed that given atheism as true, it ultimately isn’t rational, correct?

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It's more rational than sitting around moping because my life is of no great cosmic signifigance, no?

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Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

As an aside: just because I value the life of a human over that of a dolphin, it doesn't mean that I won't get very upset over the wholesale slaughter of dolphins, an act that is sometimes justified by saying that they are 'just animals'.That was in reference to Turk's 'no morality without God', claim. Yeah, it's not the most rational response ever, but I was angry.

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Yeah!you're idea here proves how people are people and how they are different.and it's the conscience that makes us unique!! and i think the question is such a broad topic...that's why!

You know what I dont get? How come we are all operating under the assumption tha 'rabbits ' are incapable of abstract thought, of wondering about life of 'worshipping' as miss T put it.
Just because we cant see or dot understand their particular logic and reasoning doesnt mean it doesnt exsist.

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Originally Posted by Nightshade

You know what I dont get? How come we are all operating under the assumption tha 'rabbits ' are incapable of abstract thought, of wondering about life of 'worshipping' as miss T put it.
Just because we cant see or dot understand their particular logic and reasoning doesnt mean it doesnt exsist.

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I know! I mean, haven't these people ever read Watership Down?

Are you taking the micheal? because if you are its not nice:nod: