You mean insatanty?Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyyyy
Printable View
You mean insatanty?Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyyyy
Many merely call satan a "fallen angel". "Keruv Hassokhekh", in the
original Hebrew of Ezekiel 28:16, means "Covering Cherub". This verse
calls some fallen spirit-being by this term - and satan is the one it
is interpretted to refer to. That being the case, he is a fallen cherub.
That is very interesting:
To begin with, that means he was once what was represented on the Ark
of the Covenant. he wanted to be worshipped, thus his servants
represented him with the form of the great sphinx, according to his own
self-aggrandizement, while the two remaining covering cherubs,
belonging to the two thirds of all the original celestial sons of GOD
that did not follow satan into sin, were represented on the Ark of the
Covenant - even though they never sought for any one's recognition but
GOD's alone.
And, even as these faithful Cherubim are represented as covering the
Presence of the ENTHRONED with their outstretched wings, it was they
that kept fallen man out of Eden, wherein satan effected apostasy, as
once before in Heaven. Without this information, the cause of the
design of the sphinx and of the Ark of the Covenant loses much, if not
all significance.
Because satan was one cherubic person, he invented a disguise for
himself as though he were in place of the TRINITY, yet made plain he
was one, selfish individual, and he favored images of cherubim in many
heathen cultures' royal adornment, as favoring his own kind.
This may be true but I was refering to his name Lucifer which is supposed to be the first name given to him. Sorry if I didn't clarify that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe
You know, I really believe that knowing you. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by zero__faith
Great post Mililalil...I actually didnt know that Satan was a cherub but this is probably because I do not look into satan so much, which is a good thing.
Sword and Shield, my statement about Satan aka Lucifer being not so important was this. I wasnt saying that it was unimportant but it is not pivotal or even crucial to the basis of Christianity. It does indeed hold significance becuase it is by Lucifer that man first was tempted and fell into sin. But when was the Torah changed? Im sure many Jewish authorities would debate very long on that issue. But this is meant for another thread and I apologize if I brought it off topic for a moment.
I once read a book that argued that Lucifer must have fallen between the time God finished creation and the fall of man. The logic that the book used was that God said of his creation, "It is good," without the exception tagged on "except for satan and his rebellious angels." Basically the book was saying God wouldn't have called it good if Satan had already rebelled and was wreaking havoc on Earth. So that's one view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Lady
But you say your religion believes he had already fallen? What is your religion, Green Lady, if you don't mind my asking :nod: .
I also have a question: Did evil exist before Satan?
Several things...
First) Lucifer's downfall could have existed before the creation of man very simply. Just because good created man and then says, good, doesnt mean that Lucifer had not already revolted. It merely states, in my opinion of the passage, that Lucifer had not tanted what God has created good. Just a little insight and u can respond on wether it is a valid point. You must remember, that God allows Lucifer the authority to reek havoc in the world but He can just as easily say, No more. Examples- when Jesus threw out the demons on several occasions.
Second) Evil is an attribute characterized by being something opposite of good. I do believe evil existed before Satan fell in theory but nothing had committed anything evil.
I have observed a theory close to this. It has been argued that evil isn't in and of itself a reality. Just as cold is merely the privation of heat, so is evil the privation of good.Quote:
Second) Evil is an attribute characterized by being something opposite of good. I do believe evil existed before Satan fell in theory but nothing had committed anything evil.
Darkness has no basis in physical reality. It is merely the deprivation of light. Yet we can tell that darkness is very real! (I can :D )
When anything starts against the natural order of the Universe, which is loving God with your entire being, evil can become reality.
I believe evil is a neccessary aspect of free will.
What do you think rufioag?
Interesting.
I agree that Lucifer could very well have revolted before Creation, I just thought I'd offer that idea since the question was brought up, and really all possibilities ought to be considered. :p
Regarding your second point, you have made me reconsider my quesiton to begin with. I don't think evil really exists at all. Let me explain: to begin with, there must have been only the posibility, the potential, for evil, a consciousness that there was an opposite to "good". But I guess I think that evil and good are not forces in themselves, but really just ways of classifying actions. The devil and demons are evil, not because it is some innate quality they posses, but because they commit evil acts. There is no general "evil" lurking out there, no dark shadow that engulfs souls like or anything like that, but that evil is created again and again every time someone makes an evil choice, commits an evil act. The devil dooesn't "epitomize evil", because evil doesn't exist apart from the agents of evil.
ShoutGrace,
(if you don't mind my responding to a question not addressed to me :nod:)I'd modify your statement a bit and say that "the potential for evil is a necessary aspect of free will"
No problems :D . I would like to say that, but I hesitate to. Here's why:Quote:
Originally Posted by water lily
God has evidently chosen to achieve his ends through the free decisions of genuine moral agents. If evil is only a potentiality, then I think that it is philosophically possible for God to create a world with unlimited free will, and yet no evil. Given that scenario, God may or may not be somewhat morally culpable for the presence and continual allowance of evil in our actualized world.
Here you mean all actions, right? Like thinking evil thoughts, hating internally. Because evil exists inside peoples hearts.Quote:
But I guess I think that evil and good are not forces in themselves, but really just ways of classifying actions.
Like the act of choosing to do something other than seek and love God. In this sense I think that Satan does epitomize our known sense of evil. He had all knowledge and appreciation of God and decided it wasn't what he wanted.Quote:
The devil dooesn't "epitomize evil", because evil doesn't exist apart from the agents of evil.
Regarding the similarities between islam and christian view of Satan youve forgotten the 2 biggest similar points Jealousy and pride. And if you look at the tale as not literal There in lies the obvious moral.
As for contradictions Youll find there is very little contradictory about what the koran says about the truth that is all the holy books. Its just not very complimentory or really somthing I would like to get into becasue it will end in tears. As religous arguments are on the whole pointless when either or both parties are so blinded by thier beliefs that they wont even listen to wha the other is saying.
Another intrestiong thing about satan redemtion.
In islam there is a story about Satan decideing he wanted redemtion. So he goes to MOses and asks him to ask GOd what he (satan) can do to redeem himself. and the answer is bow to Adams grave. Of course he doesnt becaus that would be worse than bowing to a grave of dust is worse than bowing to the living Adam. But he did think about redemtion. Some how Im not inclinded to think he is pure evil.
Actually I dont think Satan is that important either. Afterall he can not compel anyone only that person can decide wheter to do whatever.
Ok never mind dont answer my question.
About turah its not the thread, beside i gave you few examples in the thread: Is Jesus God.
I hope that you know now in which Turah we muslims are ordered to believe.
Please do not be offended Shield and Sword, my point was merely expressing my own though process on the issue on something I do not understand from your viewpoint.
Nightshade, yes I do think we are all adamently firm in our faith, both holding the desire to show that our own beliefs are true in fact and theory. But why would satan need to bow to Adam's grave? He shoudl bow before the Lord not man and showing servantude towards man doesnt mean he shows servantude towards the Lord. Take for example in a corporation, you have the Owners of the Corporations and these owners have both a board of directors and employees. Now lets say that Satan was on the board of directors. It would be strange for them to put themselves at the service of their employees and not to the Owners of the company. Just in the same, itd be strange for Satan to bow before man instead of bowing before God.
Am I misunderstanding the story?
Also, I do not know if Satan was dumb enough that he actually believed he could rise up against God. I doubt it but he was blinded by his Jealousy and want of Power. I do not think the Bible clearly identifies his emotions and his inward thought on the whole issue but I do believe this. Take for instance a huge truck is driving towards you and you fully believe you can jump over it. But what happens? The Truck destroys you. There was no possibility that you could jump over the truck but something inside you made you believe becuase all your life you had been told, you cant do it. This is the same way I bleieve Satan believed. There was no way he could have overthrown God but he attempted it anyways becuase he was blinded.
rufioag I think I told it badly I was using direct translation because I couldnt think of the right word in english.
I suppose the word I was looking for was to show respect?
Its to do with why he fell . Muslims belive he fell for failing to obey god and 'bowing down" to adam --- and I supposebowing down means showing respect. It was because obiviously as Gods Faviourate andd a being of fire he thought himself better than Adam of Clay. So by "bowing" to the grave hed be obeying God and swallowing his pride and I suppose asserting his good will to Man.
Sorry I have not got time to read the other posts!
Satan was the most beautiful angel in the heavens. One day he decided that he wanted to BE God not to be ruled by God, so he God chucked him out of heaven along with a bunch of other angels that were following his lead. God cast him into hell & he has lived there ever since trying to persuade people to follow himself instead of God the Father.
Many people think that God puts pain upon them as a punishment for what they have done, however I believe differently, I believe that it is actually Satan who puts pain on us & then makes us think that it is God that has done it. He wants to turn us against God our Father. Besides why would anyone want to hurt someone they MADE???
Satan/the devil/Lucifer, call him what you like he is still just a dirty old fallen angel that wants us to turn our backs on God so that we can have eternal DEATH & burn in hell (figuratively of course).
I don't believe that one will burn in hell, but I think one will feel so guilty that your heart will be so heavy you won't be able to handle it.
This is just my opinion so don't take it personally.