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Oh goodness. I'm sorry I brought up any economic angle. Let's let economics be left to the economists.
My point was that poverty wasn't a defining factor in coarseness. That car pooler who likes Howard Stern is an engineer like me, and he didn't grow up poor like me. It scales all economic levels.
Hey, if that's how you want to see me, what's an elastically tolerant liberal such as I to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unnamable
Plover's egg anyone? Not you, Osric, you irascible bear.
I am agreeing with your points, there are rich and poor yobs - more money leads to more need, and we know some people can do a heck of a lot with very little. I was referencing technology, education and the size of population. The more tech. goverment has, the more stealthy the yobs get, and its just a larger problem because the population numbers increased. A single murder is as unacceptable as a genocide, isn't it? I'll say its all deterministic, but.. what I am trying to point out is, I disagree the solutions are coupled in technology/education alone. A spade being always a spade, the yob has always persisted. So, how to eradicate yobism, when we take money, education, mental problems, gross circumstance out of the argument? I alluded to 'example' earlier, which I can see people wincing at, as kinda lame. Afterall, it does not have the immediate crowd pleasing effect of an electrically wired cap strapped to the yob's faulty thoughts. If I look at some cultures, there exist examples of how to contain yobism. I am not sure they even know it themselves, because they are too busy fighting some other plague. Morality is not a constant that can be isolated and measured so easily, we do not all see the right way the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I dunno about that. I'm pretty sure that if Hitler had killed just one person, we wouldn't be remembered quite so "fondly." Both are unacceptable, but just as there are varying sizes of infinity, there are also varying degrees of horror. You'd usually have to be a terrible person to commit a single murder (assuming the specific parameters of the act are morally unjustifiable); you'd have to be a rare kind of terrible to commit genocide.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyyyy
Yes, rating it would be a different matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinHood3000
Reminds me of something I overheard in the Camden branch of Sainsbury’s.Quote:
Originally Posted by blp
Thirty something woman, immaculately dressed, to her son (about ten):
“Tarquin, could you help find the mung beans for mummy?”
Surely it is more a simple question of opportunity. Crimes of passion aside, any premeditated murder requires the same degree of cool detachment and sociopathic inclination that genocide does. A few years ago there was a bomber in London that set off devices in black and asian districts and outside a gay pub in Soho, I suspect that had he access to larger devices he would quite merrily have slaughtered thousands instead of the few that he did manage to kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinHood3000
And speaking as someone approaching 70, I can confirm that the youth of today are out of control, that we never did that in our day, that we used to leave our doors open when we went on holiday and that the neighbours would come in and fill our larders for us while we were away. Bring back national service and give them all a short sharp shock. Only language they understand. :nod:
Jacky - I'm sorry. My post, although it came right after yours, was in no way in reference to yours. I had been reading previous posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyyyy
As to your points, I in no way advocate reversing modern technology or the modern world. Goodness just the difference in how we wash our clothes between today and say just a hundred years ago should jar anyone into appreciating our current life and standard of living. And that's a superficial thing. Life expectancy, a non-superficial thing, has nearly doubled since 1900, and infant mortality rates have plummeted. Coarseness is one thing, but making people's lives better is still more important in the long run. The point drawn is whether there is a relationship between the two.
Which brings me to a couple of points you make that are quite profound. First:
This is absolutely true. We brought up a lot of various points in this thread, searching intuitively for causes. One of my best engineering teachers I had in college always strove to emphasize that one should never trust one's intuition when when analyzing problems and data. Intuition can and does lead astray. Symptoms that run in parallel are not neccesarrily related. Because they are running in parallel at the same time, the mind inductively draws a correlation, and a correlation may or may not exsit. I've come across this not just in my engineering world many times, but also with doctors who were trying to explain someone's ills that to me appeared related but were seaparate issues. Another thing too to consider is what is the relative weight of each variable, given that each variable correlates. This is just for the purpose of an example, but what if we knew that 2X + 10Y +4Z =(or leads to) coarse behavior, where X is free time, Y is media content, and Z is genetic. If you could actually pull such data together, then you would know that your best bet in improving the situation would be to attack the Y variable. Unfortuantely real life doesn't lend itself this way. Which brings me to your other profound statement:Quote:
Morality is not a constant that can be isolated and measured so easily
I think that's self explanatory. Thanks.Quote:
we do not all see the right way the same way
You know, Grumbleguts, I used to chuck this up to nastalgia. But I've come to believe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumbleguts
:lol: That was back when Santa Claus was real, right? Before rabid satanic hippies killed him back in the 60's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumbleguts
I think this is actually a very good point, Jacky. I recall watching a documentary about the history of the islands of Scotland, I believe it was. They were talking about how Gaelic is falling out of use and fewer children are staying on the islands, so the communities are dying out. But they asked the older people what they think of the newest generation—the same problems we're discussing: violence, sex, etc.—and they said, "Of course we weren't like that. We didn't have time! We were out working to bring food home to our families, why would we want to make things harder by fighting with them?"Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyyyy/
That's not to say people today don't have to work hard, but it's mostly for wages, not producing goods themselves. I think that probably gives one a sense of control over his life that most modern jobs don't provide. We also don't usually work together alongside our families, and so tend to devalue them or misunderstand each other's differing life experiences. In cultures where families are more dependent on each other for survival, there is still a lot more respect and less selfish behavior (I don't think it can be denied that promiscuity and violence is selfish?).
Sometimes I get the impression that you are older than I will ever be. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Would you call intervening to prevent a mugging selfish? Or that the war against Hitler was waged purely by the selfish?Quote:
Originally Posted by emily655321
And promiscuity is human nature. Monogamy is the female ideal, polygamy the male. You may not like this but it is true.
Most things are deniable. :D
My daughter, who is living in Paris, explained to me that since they dropped National service in France, many regret. We have seen of the recent riots, so we can make some comparisons. NS alone is not a solution, and I totally disagree with electrodes, but maybe something to draw from in building a solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumbleguts
Did everyone think I was serious here? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumbleguts
All future posts will be equipped with a high-visibility irony warning. :D
You mean, we can put the electrodes back in the box now, or you changed your mind because you have been a Saturday night yob, just never got caught????? <<----heheQuote:
Originally Posted by Grumbleguts
Well I understood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumbelguts
Hey! Sounds like you crossed paths with the wife and little 'un. (l'enfer c'est moi!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Unnamable
Seriously, though, Tarquin?! Doesn't calling a child this constitute some sort of abuse? And isn't feeding it mung beans a way of compounding the fellony? First yobs, then this. What a world.
I was being wordcheap, answering five posts in one. I must remember to quote in the references properly, my mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil