Help-A question of Virgil's Eclogues

All--

I hope you realize that I'm only razzin' you b/c you know WAY more about this than I do, and seem to like discussing it openly. This is sort of like getting a class for free, and I LOVE it! And I'm sorry if I led the conversation away from Gibran... it wasn't my intent. Maybe we should start a new thread...?

And I agree, V-- PL knows her chops, and I too would love to be a student in one of her classes (but then, being in this forum, I can be!)

Also, if my questions sound simplistic or black-and-whitish, it's only b/c I'm tring to clarify positions and give us a starting point. I didn't mean to accuse you of being a "thou shalt have no other Meter before pentameter" type. I was just trying to get to the meat of my question, which has more to do with how people from different (sub-)cultures hear the "same" language.

Gee, such a lot to discuss. I agree that we should start a new thread for this discussion so I went ahead and pasted the pertinent exchanges into a new thread on the Poems, Poets and Poetry section (just to get any newbies caught up). I'll reply to the most recent post there (and maybe we'll get some new voices contributing on the topic. That would be great :banana: ). The new thread is called "Metrical Issues" (because I'm not as clever as Tod at coming up with catchy post titles ;)).

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Petrarch - You are an incredible asset to this forum. I am so happy you are with us. I hope you never leave. This was tremendously informative. I would love to be a student in one of your classes.

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PL knows her chops, and I too would love to be a student in one of her classes (but then, being in this forum, I can be!)

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I'm really glad if my comments have been helpful. You guys are so nice :blush:. As a beginning teacher I appreciate the encouragement, especially since I just got back from an interview for a teaching position for next fall (I'll still be a grad. student working as an intern, but this would mean my first real class rather than just acting as a tutor or assistant who only grades papers). Wow, it would be great to have a class of all lit. net students. I think I would learn a lot more than I could teach because you guys are so smart ;) .

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Originally Posted by TodHackett

PL-- can you (1.) recommend any books/articles on this and (2.) explain "scansion" to me?

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There are lots of books out there. The one that I have on my book shelf (I have more than one, but this is the one find most usuful) is Patterns of Poetry: An Encyclopedia of Forms by Miller Williams, 1986, LSU Press.

Many thanks to Virgil, Petrarch's Love and TodHackett!!
After reading your explanations, now I'm clear of this question.
I have another question needed helped,thanks!

This ease to us, for him a god will I
Deem ever, and from my folds a tender lamb


What's the meaning of "for him a god will I Deem ever"??

I'm sorry Gibran. Those two lines are not enough for me to understand the meaning. Who's writing it and from where? Could you provide the context or at least a few more lines?

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Originally Posted by Gibran

This ease to us, for him a god will I
Deem ever, and from my folds a tender lamb


What's the meaning of "for him a god will I Deem ever"??

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Like Virgil said, more context would be helpful, but here is a guess:

for, I will ever deem him a god

meaning something along the lines of
"[I said what I said] because I will always consider him to be a god"

The literal meaning would be "I will always consider or judge him to be a god." Is this Tityrus speaking from the same eclogue we were discussing before?

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

The literal meaning would be "I will always consider or judge him to be a god." Is this Tityrus speaking from the same eclogue we were discussing before?

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Yes, it's still Eclogue Ⅰ,

MELIBOEUS
You, Tityrus, 'neath a broad beech-canopy
reclining, on the slender oat rehearse
your silvan ditties: I from my sweet fields,
and home's familiar bounds, even now depart.
Exiled from home am I; while, Tityrus, you
sit careless in the shade, and, at your call,
“Fair Amaryllis” bid the woods resound.

TITYRUS
O Meliboeus, 'twas a god vouchsafed
this ease to us, for him a god will I
deem ever, and from my folds a tender lamb
oft with its life-blood shall his altar stain.
His gift it is that, as your eyes may see,
my kine may roam at large, and I myself
play on my shepherd's pipe what songs I will.

Oh yes Gibran. What the translator did was switch the natural nglish word order to make it sound more poetic. I hate when they do that.

Hi Virgil,
So it stands for "I will ever deem him for God"?

Yes I think so. Like I said they inverted word order to make it sound poetic. To be more exact, "a god." The ancients believed in many gods.

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So it stands for "I will ever deem him for God"?

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The "for" here means "because," so in conventional grammer the words would be rearranged to read "for I will ever deem him a god" which means "because I will always think of him as a god."

I have an addendum to the question if you all don't mine...and sorry for hijacking your thread, but is Virgil referring to Maecenas here or Octavian?

You know, I was trying real hard to ignore this translation, but its really crappy. Maybe you should consider either something more literal or something more modern. This translation is so middle of the road and convoluted. I'm assuming you're native language isn't English, and some translations try to accomplish too much. It seems that this translation, while trying to give an archaic feel to the language, has mucked it up and over complicated things, as is the tendency of most translators when trying to convey the incredibly simplistic beauty of Virgil's latin.

The phrase being translated here is:

Namque erit ille mihi semper deus.

Literally: Certainly will he for me be ever god.

This is a word for word translation. What I usually do, (and rarely, I just leave it in my brain in latin), is translate the latin to the spanish.

Cierto el sera para mi, siempre dios. Then translate it into English

Certainly he shall ever be, for me, god.

I believe that the person who translated this took the 'erit' as 'for'. However, where PL is using the 'for' as a conjunction, which in this phrase is a perfectly acceptable substitute for certainly, making it, "For he shall ever be, for me, god." The translator added to it and kinda bastardized it to fit his needs. "for him a god will I deem ever" I'm not sure why the translator did that. Whatever his reason, it certainly does confuse the ESL reader.

But I've seen worse. One translation went so far as to take the 'erit' and turn it into a prepostional phrase by saying: "He will ever be taken by me for god" or some such caca.

At any rate, that was working on my brain all night. How sad am I?