The Old Testament IS Christianity

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03-29-2006, 11:06 PM
Amra

...

Quote:

Is your avatar an image, Amra?

It is a picture. In Islam, an image created by human hand is handled differently than a photography taken by an instrument. However, some would argue that it even photography itself is forbidden, although they are a minority. HOwever, I do not hold any photographs in my house, nor other images of any creations. It is said that in Judgment Day, God will ask those who created images to breathe life into that which they have created.

Quote:

Never was the making of images banned - only the worshipping of them

What does this commandment mean?:

Do not represent [such] gods by any carved statue or picture of anything in the heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below the land'.
03-29-2006, 11:12 PM
Amra

...

Quote:

if a Priest knows a Catholic is unrepentant about a sin, he may not give Absolution.

To know whether or not someone has repented, you would have to know someone's heart. No one knows the human heart except God. How can you give that power to a human being? How can someone else, beside God, forgive sins? Why do you pray to someone else for forgiveness? Why should the priest be closer to God than you? Do you know whether or not the priest is repentant? What are the requirements for a sin to be forgiven, or for a sinner to be thought of as repentant?
03-29-2006, 11:15 PM
Amra

Quote:

A Catholic may not look upon a woman not given him by GOD for a wife with a view to desire her - that is counted as adultery. The Catholic Teaching forbids touching a woman not already espoused honorably. If a man is insensitive to his wife, GOD will not hear his Prayers. A man that treats a woman harshly is likewise not heard by GOD. Padre Pio, a good Catholic, would not admit women to Confession who were dressed immodestly. He did not hate them but told them to go get properly dressed, so that they weren't still in sexual sin while confessing their sins. One must regularly confess all failings

Same goes for muslims, but I rarely hear Christians speak in this manner.

Another question..When a Christian says that a person is saved by accepting Jesus, what does that mean? HOw does one show the "acceptace of Jesus as a savior"?
03-30-2006, 12:51 PM
Mililalil XXIV

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amra

It is a picture. In Islam, an image created by human hand is handled differently than a photography taken by an instrument. However, some would argue that it even photography itself is forbidden, although they are a minority. HOwever, I do not hold any photographs in my house, nor other images of any creations. It is said that in Judgment Day, God will ask those who created images to breathe life into that which they have created.

What does this commandment mean?:

Do not represent [such] gods by any carved statue or picture of anything in the heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below the land'.

Even you mention not to make images of "gods". Saints and scenes from sacred history are not gods.
03-30-2006, 01:17 PM
Mililalil XXIV

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amra

Another question..When a Christian says that a person is saved by accepting Jesus, what does that mean? HOw does one show the "acceptace of Jesus as a savior"?

Amra, your question is an important one. It's answer is important to understand.

In recieving Salvation from JESUS CHRIST, one must not repent of his Repentance from sin. To return to one's sin is to place oneself in the same straits as before, so that, unless GOD rescue that one from condemnation again, that one is worse off than before initial Salvation. Peter says it is as a dog returning to its vommit, and as a swine returning to rolling in the mud. The one that recieves JESUS as SAVIOR must also recieve HIM as LORD.

The Sacrament of Reconciliation forces a back-slider to humble himself and admit that he has soiled his baptismal Seal, and is lost without the Mercy of GOD and renewed Righteousness. Some in the Church's embrace do not embrace the SPIRIT that is the LIFE of the Church. These outwardly resemble the true Christian in certain material ways, but they possess none of the Christians' substance of being. JESUS said that they are like tares planted by satan in GOD's Field of Wheat. The Angels asked HIM if they could just uproot the tares - for they see all unrighteousness and cannot bear it. JESUS told them that it is not apparent what each person shall ultimately be before the Harvest (in their immaturity, that is), and that they would risk uprooting wheat that is merely undeveloped, thinking it a weed, because it bore nothing good on it yet. At the end of the age, on the last day, JESUS will reward the Wheat for their Fidelity, and will punish the tares for their evil they did taking HIS NAME in vain as they committed it.

HE also likens the matter to sheep that represent good Christians, and goats, that practice the same Religion artificially, but have not the heart that is within the sheep. HE will one day banish the goats forever from the Flock. A bad Christian is not a true Christian that is bad, but a person that makes an ingenuine carreer of calling himself a Christian. JESUS set the parameters of Christianity, and no one else can change them, just as black will never make pure white, nor some man's innovation replace hunger and thirst.
03-30-2006, 01:29 PM
Amra

:)

Quote:

Even you mention not to make images of "gods". Saints and scenes from sacred history are not gods

Is Jesus a saint or a god? Why do you make carved images of Him? Why do you make images of the angels, and Mary, and the FAther, and who knows what else?

Also, I said images of the Creator and creation are foribidden. Do not put words into my mouth again.

When I asked the question about salvation, I meant how does that manifest itself in practical life? HOw does a Christian who is saved differ from those who aren't? You didn't answer my other questions:

To know whether or not someone has repented, you would have to know someone's heart. No one knows the human heart except God. How can you give that power to a human being? How can someone else, beside God, forgive sins? Why do you pray to someone else for forgiveness? Why should the priest be closer to God than you? Do you know whether or not the priest is repentant? What are the requirements for a sin to be forgiven, or for a sinner to be thought of as repentant
03-30-2006, 01:57 PM
Mililalil XXIV

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian

In Daniel is plainly laid out the time line from his time to the Messiah and from there till the opening of probationary time in which we live now.

Jesus made a reference to Daniel's time period in one of the Gospels when speaking to Peter on forgiveness stating "I say not unto thee, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven" Matt 18:22 70X7 times which gives 490, this is the period of years given to the Jews as forgiveness from God when Daniel pleaded with him in Chapter 9.

Jesus was well aware of the time line when he was in his ministry as in one of the other Gospels he states "...Behold I cast out devils, and do cures today tomorrow and the third day I shall be perfected" Luke 13:32 This was 6 months into his ministry he had three years left just as Daniel stated he would have 3 and 1/2 years from 27AD to 31AD when he was crucified.

While many of your statements are quite ludicrous (and I was once a fool to have spread them myself as a teen), I respect your trust that the Scriptures are dependable.

It is well to point out that the Book of Daniel, because it was so perfectly precise about the time of the Incarnation of the LORD, was called a recent forgery by Porphyry, a pagan who wrote in the third century AD. In his Commentary on Daniel, Jerome, translator of the Vulgate, replied to the allegations of a late authorship. The cahrges all stemmed from a disbelief in foreknowledge of a Prophet.
03-30-2006, 02:08 PM
Amra

:)

Here are the first two commandments, so you tell me how it is ok to create images of Jesus, Father, angles, Mary, etc. ?

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
04-05-2006, 06:30 PM
SheykAbdullah

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amra

Is Jesus a saint or a god? Why do you make carved images of Him? Why do you make images of the angels, and Mary, and the FAther, and who knows what else?

Also, I said images of the Creator and creation are foribidden. Do not put words into my mouth again.

When I asked the question about salvation, I meant how does that manifest itself in practical life? HOw does a Christian who is saved differ from those who aren't? You didn't answer my other questions:

To know whether or not someone has repented, you would have to know someone's heart. No one knows the human heart except God. How can you give that power to a human being? How can someone else, beside God, forgive sins? Why do you pray to someone else for forgiveness? Why should the priest be closer to God than you? Do you know whether or not the priest is repentant? What are the requirements for a sin to be forgiven, or for a sinner to be thought of as repentant

The first question is very difficultly answered because it has been tossed about for a very long time. The simple answer is Jesus is God made flesh. However, the percise meaning of this is, to this day, not wholly clear. To answer any more would be very very very long. Mil can probably do it better than I, Christian dogma is not my area of expertise.

As for how a person who accepts Christ is different from everybody else, that too is an interesting and complex question. The idea is that someone who is 'saved' by accepting Christ is so overpowered by his love that he strives to be good for his sake. He is made a better person because God loves him and forgives him, and as a result of that love the Christian is driven to make himself worthy of salvation. Much like a Sufi saint who has, in meditation, come upon the sight of Allah and is driven mad by it and dances, sings, chants, etc, except that a Christian is driven to be 'good' by his vision and performs good acts. Of course, there are bad Christians, just as there are false faqirs.

As for shriving (being confessed by a priest) that is also bound up in the Catholic view of God. You see, Catholics, traditionally, do not view God as being able to directly interfere in the world, and so must act THROUGH intermediaries, such a priests. A priest has no power but what he has been given by the church, which is the presence of God on earth. Not everyone can access God equally, because we believe that only people who live a life dedicated to him in study contemplation and ministry (monks often are not full priests and do not have full duties) are authorized by their knowledge faith and purity to intercede on our behalf. It is similiar to the idea of ijtahad in some sects of Islam. Only the studied and wise can understand the Lord. I assume that you are a Sunni, which has a view of God like a Prostestant. A Protestant would say the same things you are saying now, which is why they left the Roman Church. They believe God comes to all to save them (see the above paragraph, and I realize this belief is different than in Islam) and can communicate directly with the world. In fact, some Protestant sects went so far as to deny ANY free will to a person (like some Muslims) and say that (unlike any Muslim sect I have heard of) some people are damned from the start, and some saved. They said that God has a list and if you aren't on it you are screwed no matter what you do, but since you aren't on the list you were going to do something bad anyway. It's the old question of fate. Strangely enough this relates to the above paragraph because these people (the Calvinists) believed that you knew when you were on the good list because God allowed you to feel his extasy directly at some point in your life. These people became called 'the Elect.'

In the end, depending on your thoughts, it is just another path to the Truth, or just another expression of a simple human idea. In the end it's all in the faith.
04-07-2006, 11:49 PM
Mililalil XXIV

Quote:

Originally Posted by SheykAbdullah

The first question is very difficultly answered because it has been tossed about for a very long time. The simple answer is Jesus is God made flesh. However, the percise meaning of this is, to this day, not wholly clear. To answer any more would be very very very long. Mil can probably do it better than I, Christian dogma is not my area of expertise.

As for how a person who accepts Christ is different from everybody else, that too is an interesting and complex question. The idea is that someone who is 'saved' by accepting Christ is so overpowered by his love that he strives to be good for his sake. He is made a better person because God loves him and forgives him, and as a result of that love the Christian is driven to make himself worthy of salvation. Much like a Sufi saint who has, in meditation, come upon the sight of Allah and is driven mad by it and dances, sings, chants, etc, except that a Christian is driven to be 'good' by his vision and performs good acts. Of course, there are bad Christians, just as there are false faqirs.

Thank you, SheykAbdullah. You have surely striven to give a fair look at things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SheykAbdullah

As for shriving (being confessed by a priest) that is also bound up in the Catholic view of God. You see, Catholics, traditionally, do not view God as being able to directly interfere in the world, and so must act THROUGH intermediaries, such a priests. A priest has no power but what he has been given by the church, which is the presence of God on earth. Not everyone can access God equally, because we believe that only people who live a life dedicated to him in study contemplation and ministry (monks often are not full priests and do not have full duties) are authorized by their knowledge faith and purity to intercede on our behalf. It is similiar to the idea of ijtahad in some sects of Islam. Only the studied and wise can understand the Lord. I assume that you are a Sunni, which has a view of God like a Prostestant. A Protestant would say the same things you are saying now, which is why they left the Roman Church. They believe God comes to all to save them (see the above paragraph, and I realize this belief is different than in Islam) and can communicate directly with the world. In fact, some Protestant sects went so far as to deny ANY free will to a person (like some Muslims) and say that (unlike any Muslim sect I have heard of) some people are damned from the start, and some saved. They said that God has a list and if you aren't on it you are screwed no matter what you do, but since you aren't on the list you were going to do something bad anyway. It's the old question of fate. Strangely enough this relates to the above paragraph because these people (the Calvinists) believed that you knew when you were on the good list because God allowed you to feel his extasy directly at some point in your life. These people became called 'the Elect.'

In the end, depending on your thoughts, it is just another path to the Truth, or just another expression of a simple human idea. In the end it's all in the faith.

Again, you bring out many good points.

I do have to point out, though, that in the Catholic Faith, there is the invitation to total exercising of the Faith, while many hold only to things empowered only by the SPIRIT, WHO is nearest to those that dive deep into that total exercise of the Faith. To be spiritually lazy is to not perfectly lay hold of the Substance of the Catholic Faith. Many are just like weak little sheep, rather than being self-motivated, until they have seen a wonderful example before their eyes.

A strong Catholic believes he/she can speak directly face to Face with GOD in the SPIRIT at all times. The higher one has climbed before falling low from that highest point in their progress, the more even the least of sins will result in the stumbler's own broken-heartedness. At such a point, even the strongest sees a need to not only waste no time about going directly to GOD, but to humbly admit that GOD may only hear the stumbler's Prayer amidst a humble expression about being needy. It is an act of humility to ask a brother, whether on earth, or in Heaven, to pray for you.

Protestants mistake this as being caught up with Confession. Confession is actually to GOD, the GREAT HIGH PRIEST, but is witnessed by the Priest to whom is given a Stewardship of using the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to release stored up Graces to a Penitant, that not the Priest, but the Sacrifice of CHRIST affords and supplies. Parents are also given special places of channeling provisions from GOD to children.

There are Catholics in upbringing that hardly dip into their Spiritual Inheritance in CHRIST. Some such as these are the ones that SheykAbdullah would be noticing a lack of intimacy with GOD in. Their weakness is not Catholic, but GOD's offer to them is still the same Universal Gospel as ever, and HIS intent and offer has weakened not.

For me, it is not worth living without exploring the depths of Fellowship with GOD without limit.
04-08-2006, 12:41 AM
ShoutGrace

Quote:

...except that a Christian is driven to be 'good' by his vision and performs good acts. Of course, there are bad Christians, just as there are false faqirs.

I would just like to say a few things here. The Bible postulates the understanding that Jesus is God's Son. Jesus said that he himself was the key to eternal life, and that by believing in him we would be "saved". The Bible claims that a person who has heard the Good News, trusts in their heart that the message is true, and repents, will be literally inhabited with the Holy Spirit and begin the transformation into a likeness of Christ. A Christian (christ-like) would naturally want to perform good acts in the hopes of obeying, or coming as close as possible to obeying, Jesus' earthly commandments. Yet works of righteousness or good acts are in and of themselves worthless as a Godly pursuit. The Bible teaches that grace and forgiveness comes as a gift through Jesus' atonement on the cross, and his resurrection. A Christian could lie, cheat and steal their whole life and it wouldn't matter. Of course, a person who has truly repented and is, in every moment, being made into the likeness of God, would never do such things. It would be to contradictory to their nature.

Quote:

To know whether or not someone has repented, you would have to know someone's heart. No one knows the human heart except God. How can you give that power to a human being? How can someone else, beside God, forgive sins? Why do you pray to someone else for forgiveness? Why should the priest be closer to God than you? Do you know whether or not the priest is repentant? What are the requirements for a sin to be forgiven, or for a sinner to be thought of as repentant

You are quite correct in saying that a person cannot know whether another has truly repented or not. I guess Mililalil has explained about the Catholic confession practices. I'm not entirely sure what the Catholic beliefs are, and I would love for Mililalil to tell me. I don't think that a priest is any closer to God than anyone else, in and of the fact that he is a priest. He may be, incidentally, simply because he has a greater understanding of God and a greater passion to know and love him. Just reading Luther's 95 theses can help give a better understanding. The Great Schism is a direct result of people wanting to get back to the Scriptures themselves, without any human tradition. I'm not in any way knocking Catholic traditions because I haven't studied them fully.

The requirement for the forgiveness of sins is twofold. A true, uncompromising repentence (as can be found in Psalms 51, one of my favorite parts of the Bible), and a heartfelt unabashed acceptance of Jesus the Christ as your savior. Jesus claimed that he came to give his life as a ransom for many. The Bible tells us that he is directly responsible for restoring people to God.

Sin is an awful thing, and it helps to tell us how holy God is. God is so just and righteous that he needed to incarnate his Son as a blood sacrifice in order to wash it away (Isaiah 53, esp. verse 10).

Quote:

For me, it is not worth living without exploring the depths of Fellowship with GOD without limit.

Amen! If only every person felt this way.

Thanks Amra. You sound like a very thoughtfull person. I hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toes here.
04-11-2006, 12:48 PM
rufioag

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mathew 19: 21

Jesus clearly states that he is God throughout the bible. The phrase Son of Man, which was used to describe Jesus, can be traced to Daniel 7:13-14 in which Daniel describes one who was like a son of man who was given authority, glory and sovereign power over everyone and everything, thus proof of the Diety of Christ. Also, Jesus says he can forgive sins in the synoptics, an act on God can do. Thus another example showing Christ is God. Third, Jesus says, "Whoever acknowledges me, I will acknowledge before my father in Heaven." This verse shows that salvation is based upon the acceptance that Christ is God. But going back to the verse above in Mathew, it explains that Christ still calls for people to follow the old law(verses prior to the one noted) but it does not claim that these deeds will get you to Heaven. It even if you do all these things, you still must follow me, which is the key point of the verse, showing that Jesus is the only way to Heaven.

So my point is, Christ is God and so close was His connection with God that He equated a person's attitude to Himself with the person's attitude toward God. Thus, to know Him was to know God (John 8:19; 14:7). To see Him was to see God (12:45; 14:9). To believe in Him was to believe in God (12:44; 14:1). To receive Him was to receive God (Mark 9:37). To hate Him was to hate God (John 15:23). And to honor Him was to honor God (5:23).

2 Now when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ: He sent two of his disciples to ask him:
3 Are you he that is to come, or are we expecting another?
4 And Jesus answered them: Go and relate to John what you have heard and seen.
5 The blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead rise again, the poor have the gospel preached to them.

I hope i havent misconstrude any verses here but this is my interpretation. But thats the great thing about these forums is that one person makes a mistake, others are there to explain the error in an explanation, therefore arriving at truth.
04-11-2006, 01:34 PM
Amra

:)

Quote:

Jesus clearly states that he is God throughout the bible.

Where?

Quote:

Also, Jesus says he can forgive sins in the synoptics, an act on God can do.

Verse?

Quote:

"Whoever acknowledges me, I will acknowledge before my father in Heaven."

A Prophet could have said that. Prophet Mohammed a.s said that we have to follow him in order to be muslims, because he showed us how to practice Islam. During Judgment Day, Allah t. will allow Prophet Mohammed a.s to pray for all of his followers, and muslims ask God to be one of those for who Prophet Mohammed a.s will pray at that time. The importance of the Prophet a.s is enormous, but that doesn't mean he is God.

Quote:

It even if you do all these things, you still must follow me, which is the key point of the verse, showing that Jesus is the only way to Heaven.

I agree that we have to follow the Prophets a.s, but that doesnt' mean that we worship them as Gods. Following them means worshipping God Almighty, just like they did. Prophet Jesus a.s prayed to God, and he tells you to follow him in that and pray to the Almighty as well.

Quote:

He equated a person's attitude to Himself with the person's attitude toward God. Thus, to know Him was to know God (John 8:19; 14:7). To see Him was to see God (12:45; 14:9). To believe in Him was to believe in God (12:44; 14:1). To receive Him was to receive God (Mark 9:37). To hate Him was to hate God (John 15:23). And to honor Him was to honor God (

All of these can be applied to a Prophet, as they are applied to Prophet Mohammed a.s in Islam. Those who hate the Prophet a.s cannot be muslims, and God requires us to love the Prophet and follow him. Those who accepted the message of the Prophet a.s are muslims, those who reject it are not. etc. All of those do not prove that Jesus is God; as they are valid for the relationship any prophet had with God Almighty.
04-11-2006, 01:41 PM
Amra

:)

Here are some verses from the Qur'an showing the relationship of the Prophet a.s to God Almighty.

Bismillah..

[47.32] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way and oppose the Apostle after that guidance has become clear to them cannot harm Allah in any way, and He will make null their deeds.

[47.33] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle, and do not make your deeds of no effect.

[47.34] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.
04-12-2006, 05:46 AM
ShoutGrace

re: Jesus' claims to divinity

One thing that helped me to learn how dangerous and "blasphemous'' it was for Jesus to claim to be God was an understanding of Jewish customs during his lifetime. Jesus was a poor middle aged Jew when he began his ministry. He lived and taught in a Jewish land, to Jewish people.

"You shall have no other Gods but me" (Ex 20:1-6). We also have "Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord alone!" (Deut 6:4). From the New Testament, we see that Jesus's claims of divinity are what caused the Jewish leaders to push for his execution. His blasphemy was of the highest order. I will get to the quotes in a moment.

Quote:

Jesus clearly states that he is God throughout the bible.

There are different ways that Jesus claimed to be God, be equal to God, and have a uniform relationship with God. I myself think of them in this breakdown.

------Jesus the "Son of Man"
------Use of the word "Abba"
------The "I Am" claims
------The miscellaneous claims
------The book of Revelation

The Son of Man title obviously and qualitatively (in my mind, there are Christians who have studied intensely and have a larger view) comes from one of Daniel's eschatological prophecies.

"I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of Heaven there came one like the Son of Man, and he approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one which shall not be destroyed." Daniel 7:13, 14.

One interesting thing to note here is that elsewhere in the Old Testament it is only God who comes on the clouds (Ps. 104:3, Is. 19:1). Accordingly, the Son of Man originates in heaven and comes by divine initiative. The phrase as used in Daniel is "bar enash". What is the significance? The combination "bar enash" and its parallels in Old Babylonian carry the meaning of an heir or successor to royalty, or of a free man of the highest class. A "man" here is not just any man, but as we might say, "THE MAN", as in royalty.

Daniel was written at a time when this phrase had a specific and known meaning. In the context of Daniel 7:13, in which the one "like a son of man" comes to the Ancient of Days (Almighty God) and is given dominion of the sort that God alone possesses, the significance of Jesus' own "son of man" usage cannot be overstated. It is functionally equivalent to saying that he was the entity described in the prophecy. Jesus had no money but he obviously had an education. He knew that the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin knew to whom the prophecy refered. The Messiah. When he describes himself as the Son of Man he asserts the fact that he is fufilling Jewish Messianic prophecies.

Son of Man verses : Mat 8:20, Mat 12:8, Mat 12:32, Mat 13:41, Mat 24:30, 25:31, Mrk 2:28, Mrk 8:38, Mrk 14:62, Lk 9:58, Lk. 18:8, Lk 19:10, Jn 3:14, amongst many others. Also interesting to note is how severely Jews respond to his Son of Man title in certain instances.

"Abba" means "Father" when used among human beings - and to use the term when referring to God was unthinkable! It was not used by Jews in such a familiar way until the Hasidim movement, which began in the 18th century. The use of "Abba" (which equals our "Papa," or perhaps "Daddy") is "without analogy in the Jewish prayers of the first millenium A.D."

Abba is an affectionate term used by young children to talk to their biological fathers. An adult wouldn't call their father "abba", just as we today wouldn't call our fathers "Daddy". Whenever Jesus talked about our relationship to God, he used the term "pater", a respectful adult term meaning "father". For instance, when he told us the Lords Prayer, he used "''pater". Whenever Jesus talked about his own relationship with God, he used the word "abba". When he says "The reason my father loves me is that I lay down my life - only to take it up again", (John 10:17) he uses the word "abba".

In Mark 14:36, the word "abba" is used by Jesus, along with "pater". Jesus used both the familiar term and the term of respect - as did Paul in the Galatians. So these two verses read, "Abba, Father." Note that the retention of both the Aramiac and Greek words is a strong indication that the use of "Abba" goes back to Jesus Himself, since there is no reason why the early Christians should not have been satisfied with Greek equivalents for both words.

Jesus' claims to being the great "I Am" have been a source of personal joy for me. In the gospel of John, when he said "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham even existed, I Am" (8:58) I literally laughed and felt awed by his existence. I also like his style. The crowd had been ridiculing and deriding him, so he put it to them as literally and persuasively as he could.

I guess that the main history of "I am" goes back to Exodus 3:14. (God said to Moses, 'I AM THAT I AM.' And he said, 'Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.').

[I took the following from David Mark Ball's 'I Am' in John's Gospel: Literary Function, Background and Theological Implications].

Here are some other parallels . . .

* John 4:26//Is. 52:6
* John 6:20//Is. 43:1-3, 5, 10
* John 8:18, 24, 28, 13:19//Is. 43:10
* John 8:58//Is. 43:13

1. In Isaiah ani hu is "always attributed to Yahweh" and is a statement only he can make. Anyone else making the same statement would be guilty of "an attempt to claim equality with God or displace him."
2. It signifies that "Yahweh alone is God", is sovereign over history, and creator.
3. Though Isaiah is a main focus, Jesus' "I AM" sayings match him with the "the Bread of which the Old Testament spoke, the Light of which Isaiah spoke, the Shepherd of whom Jeremiah and Ezekiel spoke, and the Vine of which many Old Testament passages spoke." The words I AM "thus act as a formula which applies Old Testament and Jewish concepts to the person of Jesus who embodies and fulfills them." [end reference].

I AM thus provides a powerful self-identification in which Jesus identifies himself with the roles and person of YHWH in the Old Testament.

As for miscellaneous claims . . .

Matthew 11:27. "All things have been handed over to Me by my Father: and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

Matthew 12:28; parallel in Luke 11:20. "If I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."

Matthew 23:34. "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes..." In Jewish belief, it is God that is responsible for sending prophets. In saying that He will send prophets, Jesus is equating Himself with God - once again, assuming a role reserved for God alone.

Matthew 24:5; parallels in Mark 5:23, Luke 21:8. "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ: and shall deceive many." This statement would be meaningless if Jesus did not perceive Himself as Christ. The title "Christ," of course, is a Greek equivalent to the Jewish term "Messiah". Therefore, this can be considered to be a claim to divinity if it is shown that Christ/Messiah is a divine title.

Matthew 28:18; similar quotes in Luke 24:25, 46. In this post-resurrection address, Jesus says that all power in heaven and on earth has been given to Him - in short, power that only God has.

Matthew 26:64; parallel in Mark 14:61-4. The high priest asks Jesus directly if He is the Christ, and Jesus answers in the affirmative.

Matthew 9:2; parallels in Mark 2:5, Luke 5:20 and 7:48. Jesus tells people that "their sins are forgiven." This may not seem significant to Western eyes, so an illustration is needed. If John does something bad to Joe, then Joe can forgive John. But it would be ridiculous for Jake - unless he were somehow related to Joe - to forgive John for what he did to Joe. Forgiveness requires the RIGHT to forgive; therefore, Jesus' forgiving the sins of others that He had no personal connection with indicates that He believed that He was the only One who was offended by all sins and therefore had the right to forgive them: God, the author of all moral law. Moreover, this is particularly a noteworthy claim in the context of Judaism, for as Charlesworth notes, "The faithful Jew...acknowledged that only God can forgive the sinner." So in effect, Jesus was assuming the place and role of the entire Temple sacrificial system authorized by God and claiming to be God's broker for forgiveness.

As for Revelation, just chapter 1 ought to suffice (I'm probably running out of room!). Revelation 22:12, 13 are useful.

Jesus summarily equated himself with God. He said he came for his lost sheep (John chp. 10), and to give his life as a ransom for many (Mat. 20:28).

We can either agree or disagree with him. But I think it can be and has been (in other places by smarter and more proficient people than I) shown that Jesus himself knew himself to be the Son of God, equal to God, and the answer and hope for every person. What we do with his assertion is a separate issue.

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