Why I Don't Believe In God

"To cause someone else's suicide is to relieve them of their own causal agency and, thus, prevent them from engaging in suicide. You have problems of definition before you even get started. But again, nice try."

Whoa back up a minute. Suicidal people are hyper-sensitive to how they are perceived by others. A depressed gay teen in middle America, pressed on all sides by a homophobic culture, is definitely at extreme risk of suicide. The homophobia may not entirely cause them to commit the deed, but it can be a necessary factor. You may be able to argue that the homophobia is not solely brought about by Christianity. It contributes though, that is not to be doubted.

I do agree that many atheists have yet to and likely never will realize the full ramifications of their atheism in the way that Nietzsche had.

"Whoever sought for signs of an ironical divinity's hand in the great drama of existence would find no small indication thereof in the stupendous question-mark that is called Christianity. That mankind should be on its knees before the very antithesis of what was the origin, the meaning and the law of the Gospels -- that in the concept of the "church" the very things should be pronounced holy that the "bearer of glad tidings" regards as beneath him and behind him -- it would be impossible to surpass this as a grand example of world-historical irony --"

-Nietzsche

This statement can be as accurately applied to the Christianity of today as that of the middle ages or any age. A meek hippy turned into the mascot of capitalism and discrimination. Such irony.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

"To cause someone else's suicide is to relieve them of their own causal agency and, thus, prevent them from engaging in suicide. You have problems of definition before you even get started. But again, nice try."

Whoa back up a minute. Suicidal people are hyper-sensitive to how they are perceived by others. A depressed gay teen in middle America, pressed on all sides by a homophobic culture, is definitely at extreme risk of suicide. The homophobia may not entirely cause them to commit the deed, but it can be a necessary factor. You may be able to argue that the homophobia is not solely brought about by Christianity. It contributes though, that is not to be doubted.

I do agree that many atheists have yet to and likely never will realize the full ramifications of their atheism in the way that Nietzsche had.

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I also think that lying is wrong, but my belief has never caused any politicians or lawyers to commit suicide. I'm not sure why you think it is necessary to bash Christianity on this topic in the context of this thread. There's no doubt many insensitive Christians out there who use the wrong methods to preach Christ, but have you seen the insensitivity used in this thread and others by those who hate believers?

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

I also think that lying is wrong, but my belief has never caused any politicians or lawyers to commit suicide. I'm not sure why you think it is necessary to bash Christianity on this topic in the context of this thread. There's no doubt many insensitive Christians out there who use the wrong methods to preach Christ, but have you seen the insensitivity used in this thread and others by those who hate believers?

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Well Stuntpickle made a comment on suicide which I felt I had to challenge. I did say that Christianity is not the sole cause of homophobia.

Everyone lies. Only about ten percent of individuals are attracted to members of the same sex. There's a difference.

I won't speak for others. The discussion thus far actually seems rather tame to me. I know I never went ad hominem.

It's not bashing to say a person shouldn't hate a person who isn't hurting anyone. Christians have named this "abomination" as something to scorn as part of their faith. It's not bashing to say that Christianity got this one wrong. There are secular homophobes too. Let's not turn discrimination against gays into discrimination against Christians. That doesn't work.

Its called an abomination because Jewish culture was at that time in bitter competition with a Hellenistic culture which featured bisexuality.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

"To cause someone else's suicide is to relieve them of their own causal agency and, thus, prevent them from engaging in suicide. You have problems of definition before you even get started. But again, nice try."

Whoa back up a minute. Suicidal people are hyper-sensitive to how they are perceived by others. A depressed gay teen in middle America, pressed on all sides by a homophobic culture, is definitely at extreme risk of suicide. The homophobia may not entirely cause them to commit the deed, but it can be a necessary factor. You may be able to argue that the homophobia is not solely brought about by Christianity. It contributes though, that is not to be doubted.

I do agree that many atheists have yet to and likely never will realize the full ramifications of their atheism in the way that Nietzsche had.

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Consider it this way. I say I am thirsty. You get in your car and drive toward the nearest convenience store to buy some soft drinks. On the way you are sideswiped by another car and die. Did I cause your death? See, the initial problem is establishing that I, in fact, caused you to get in your car and drive to the store. But the monstrous difficulty is involved with replacing the obvious cause, the other car, with another that isn't even directly involved with the accident.

Seriously, depression generally isn't the discrete effect of another person's opinion. There are huge problems in establishing the truth of a statement suggesting that one person's opinion can cause another's depression--not to mention the fact that believing homosexuality is wrong is not synonymous with treating homosexuals in any particular manner. So if the argument is that there exists an environment of hostility toward homosexuals, then you have a fairly impossible task of demonstrating how a person's religious beliefs are responsible for this environment. Moreover, this sort of deterministic model of human behavior is bizarre. Is there anything I can say to you to cause you to enter a depression?

Let us imagine that you find the existence of green hats oppressive and, thus, kill yourself. Did green hats cause your suicide?

Let us imagine that I tell you to go to a mountain, and you do. Once there you push someone off a cliff. Did I cause the other person's death?

Let us imagine you are, as you say, hyper-sensitive, and I say I don't like your shirt, so you kill yourself. Did I cause your suicide?

If you have two discrete events, it is difficult to ascribe the cause of one event to the effect of another--especially if this relationship between the two events is as complicated as that involving occurrences in someone's life.


Here's the biggest problem. If I can cause your death by suicide, where are you in the equation? Is it true that once I have committed you to some theoretically inescapable chain of events that you are compelled to kill yourself? Do you no longer have a choice? If I am compelling your death, then it would be not suicide, but homicide. There are insurmountable problems with the proposition.

I have trouble seeing how anyone can really think this is reasonable.

"Let us imagine you are, as you say, hyper-sensitive, and I say I don't like your shirt, so you kill yourself. Did I cause your suicide?"

If you said you didn't like my life-style, my sexuality, ME, calling me an abomination, somehow lesser, then you would have contributed to my suicide. Not entirely caused it but definitely contributed. So you think all these cases I keep hearing about of bullied teens ending their lives are mere sensationalized, unreasonable accounts?

Asking someone to go for drinks is different than telling someone you think they're disgusting and hate them.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

"Let us imagine you are, as you say, hyper-sensitive, and I say I don't like your shirt, so you kill yourself. Did I cause your suicide?"

If you said you didn't like my life-style, my sexuality, ME, calling me an abomination, somehow lesser, then you would have contributed to my suicide. Not entirely caused it but definitely contributed. So you think all these cases I keep hearing about of bullied teens ending their lives are mere sensationalized, unreasonable accounts?

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No, you can't get off that easy. The law of excluded middle says that any proposition is either true or false. So are you admitting that the statement that one can cause another's suicide is false? There's no third option.

Yes, I am saying any account in news media suggesting that any person or persons can cause another's suicide is unreasonable. As persons we have causal agency that cannot be retracted because someone doesn't like us. Why don't all bullied children kill themselves? There can be no causal relationship.

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Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin

Asking someone to go for drinks is different than telling someone you think they're disgusting and hate them.

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Comparing two things never suggests that the two things are identical. In fact, comparing two things suggests they are different in some manner. For instance, you would never say a dog is like a dog. We are concerned with causal agency, and the example demonstrates this satisfactorily. Your statement is completely irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by stuntpickle

No, you can't get off that easy. The law of excluded middle says that any proposition is either true or false. So are you admitting that the statement that one can cause another's suicide is false? There's no third option.

Yes, I am saying any account in news media suggesting that any person or persons can cause another's suicide is unreasonable. As persons we have causal agency that cannot be retracted because someone doesn't like us. Why don't all bullied children kill themselves? There can be no causal relationship.

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You say science is narrow and then go on to reduce the baffling complexity of human experience to logical axioms? Of course others can contribute to another's suicide. We are social creatures. There is almost nothing worse than rejection.

How about this: one can contribute to another's suicide. Law of excluded middle aside, there is a difference in meaning between the word cause and the word contribute. This is what I've been arguing the whole time.

The presupposition is that bullying is a potential factor leading to the victim's suicide. There is nothing bullying in asking someone for a drink, so it's not a proper comparison. If you want to say calling your friend's wife fat shouldn't lead to her suicide, that would make more sense. Still, it's much different when a person's only peers and loved ones are calling them disgusting for being different. Especially if they're young and in a situation they can't easily escape from.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

You say science is narrow and then go on to reduce the baffling complexity of human experience to logical axioms? Of course others can contribute to another's suicide. We are social creatures. There is almost nothing worse than rejection.

How about this: one can contribute to another's suicide. Law of excluded middle aside, there is a difference in meaning between the word cause and the word contribute. This is what I've been arguing the whole time.

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I, alone, decide whether I kill myself. I find your deterministic ideas about behavior wrong and dangerous.

I understand where you're coming from Stuntpickle, I really do. But would you be especially cautious regarding what you say to someone just released from being on suicide watch in a psych ward? If so, why?

A young teen just killed herself less than a kilometre from my house. She was bullied intensely at school because her mother was gay and lived with another woman.