Ugh... is that true? I knew I should have posted on that thread. It's not my favorite Dickens novel, but I'm still surprised the conversation would flounder like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
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Ugh... is that true? I knew I should have posted on that thread. It's not my favorite Dickens novel, but I'm still surprised the conversation would flounder like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I better PM you my longer reply. Quark, I wish you had entered into the discussion, because ATOTC is a great book. I have been doing some research on the book and digging up some good ideas and ways to discuss it. If you care to, please peak at the thread and see what we have been posting so far. Even though it is basically two of us we have not done too badly so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Hello Everyone! This is just to let you know I have been reading/reviewing many of the Lawrence short stories this week and I have a few good ones picked out for future discussion, one in particular for this month. If any of you want to begin reading the story the next short story we will be discussing will be:
THE BLIND MAN
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...ce/Braille.jpg
This is in Volume II of "The Collected Short Stories". You can find the online text on this very site:
http://www.online-literature.com/dh_...-my-england/3/
Enjoy your reading, everyone!
We will begin discussions on Monday morning, March 3rd.
Just adding this quick note - I will try to email everyone to let them know about the story. J
Janine, which Lawrence SS book book do you have? I'm looking into getting one so I don't have to strain my eyes reading off a computer screen--although my new flat screen is quite a luxurious viewing experience.
I'll probably get to reading "Blind Man" tomorrow. If my fragile corneas can last long enough for me to write a post, I might get a chance to post something, too. It seems like I may be talking to myself, though. Where did everyone go?
Quark, you must be patient...I feel sure you won't be talking to yourself; and even if you were - at least you know who you would be dealing with;) :lol: . When things get rolling, I will attend both discussions; I have promised, haven't I? Even being half-sick still, I will be there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Actually, buying the Lawrence collection of the short stories can be a little problematic. The way they are set up is that there is actually 3 separate volumes of the Collected Short Stories. There are other additions such as "England, My England" with other stories and also same with "Prussian Officer and Other Stories". I happen to own the first one, but they don't have all the stories from the entire 3 volume collection. The ones I needed to fill in what I did not have were volumes One and Two; I owned Volume 3. I had to order them from Amazon and settle for used copies. Luckily, I found a seller who threw in the one used book, basically because it was not in great condition and has promptly fallen appart...of course, it is still readable and was free, so I can't really complain.
So here is what I will do; I certainly do not recommend you go blind. I will check Amazon and see if I can track down a copy for you. Do you have an account on there? Last night I read the Chekhov story "Misery"...I printed it out from online since it only was 4 pages long. I also have printed out "Oh! The Public" - so I am ready. I did listen to that one on my audio cd set.
Hey, those new screens are nice, eh? I bought myself one not long ago. It is 19 inch and really accomodates the several windows I like to keep open at once. I am multi-brained you know!:D
But like you, I really don't enjoy reading the stories online. How many pages would "The Blind Man" be to print it out? Do you have a printer? I printed on 'draft' and 'fast' speed to save on ink. Also, you can decrease the font size to make less pages.
Janine and Quark, there is now a The Complete Stories of DH Lawrence in one volume. It might be hard to find but it exists. Otherwise I have the three (of The Complete...) parts in individual paperbacks.
Oh, I think I did know of it but then try and find it. I will look on Amazon and see if it is listed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Virgil, how do you like the photo I came up with? I thought it was a good one and symbolic. You know me - like to illustrate the stories. :D
Yes, I'm looking for something like that. A comprehensive, single-volume, anthology would be nice--even if it weighs more than a cinder block.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Quark and Virgil,I just saw it on Amazon and the bad news is used it cost at the least $61. If you go to this page you will see several of the volumes - the first two listed but then that would leave one you still need. If you look into the 'used and new' vendors, you will see one seller midway down the page has 98% positive and seems to be ok but from Alaska - his price is around $7 for one of the volumes - paperback. Here is the link to the page on Amazon listing the books:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias%
This is why I did not buy the $61 dollar hardback - who can afford that? My only other thought is you might find them in a college book store. I think I checked Barnes and Noble and they don't have them. Trouble is they are out of print now....sad thing....
Cool pic, story sounds good, are those dots Braille in the picture? Perhaps I'll be able to take part in this one or at least read it if not anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Spoiler!
Last night, I managed to read the story. Really liked it a lot though of course it did ruin my predictions that I had created in my mind's eye. :p The ending was totally unexpected for me as I had not expected the two men one of whom resented the other who never let the chance of mocking him pass to be friends again. But the whole scene in the end, the start of their 'friendship' and the feelings of Bertie I guess made up the most interesting part of the story, unexpected though it might be for me. Sometimes surprises are good too. :)
Might re-read it again, and goodluck to those who are/who will be going through it! :)
Pensive, thanks for putting SPOILER in large bold type, in case some have not read the story yet. I read the story, so I read your post. I also, want to re-read the story tonight. I am part of the Chekhov SS thread too, so I want to relisten to that story tonight on my CD. I feel asleep last night before I got to that story - track #6....silly me, but I have read it also. Interesting story.
Exactly - "Sometimes surprises are good too." definitely! Yes, Lawrence loved to surprise, I believe, at the very ending of a story. I liked especially the ending, too, but I also very much liked the part when the young wife went looking for her husband in the darkened barn and she felt afraid. I think that showed her more sensually and first-hand what exactly, it would feel like to be blind. Before that moment she could only imagine his blindness but this made her also blind and feeling as her husband would feel alone in the darkness. I felt it was a key moment in the story in her relating to how he felt in his isolation of blindness. I will expand on discussing this idea tomorrow and post that exact passage. I thought it was so well written.
Pensive, glad you see you here for the discussion! I anticipate that this will be a very good one. Quark,Virgil, Dark Muse and hopefully Hira have shown interest. I am hoping manolia can join in, as well.
I cannot wait untill we offically start discussing the story on Monday.
Dark Muse, you can start if you want to. It is only one day ahead. I know others are anxious, as well....and like I said, I have read the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Hehe well for now I just want to say, first of all I did not know it was going to be a horror story LOL
To me that scene in the barn with Bertie and Maurice= CREEEPY
By the way, did anyone else think Bertie might have been gay?
When I get the chance, I plan to read though it again and highlight my faveorite phrases and I should have those ready by Monday sometime.
Haha, no I did not think it was a horror story. I did find the ending uncomfortable, especially when the blind man had Bertie feel is empty eye-sockets. That seemed 'creepy', but it was not unrealistic for a blind man to do so. Remember he has no visual sense to know another person, he must rely on 'touch'. His world now is a tackle one and very viseral, sensual. I think if anything it was tender and demonstrated the lines his wife said, when she was trying to explain to Bertie, that they now had 'something else'....but she could not explain it in words, something that replaced her husband's sight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I don't think Lawrence would have intended Bertie to be gay. I think he is getting more to the whole idea that Bertie cannot truly 'connect' with people emotionally or on the level that now the blind man can. The blind man has gone through a tranformation and the ending the blind man forces this on Bertie - this is true. I don't think they view the scene in the barn quite the same. Bertie keeps very much contained and to himself and is a bachelor and somewhat of a recluse. He is resigned to his life of solitude and when the blind man breaks into his wall of solitude it is an earth shattering experience for Bertie.Quote:
By the way, did anyone else think Bertie might have been gay?
Quote:
When I get the chance, I plan to read though it again and highlight my faveorite phrases and I should have those ready by Monday sometime.
Mostly I jest, though I did really think that the scene was a bit creepy and it reminded me in someways of Grapes of Wrath at the every end, where the woman nurses from her breast the grown man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I understand how the Blindman relies upon his other senses, and though perhaps a bit awakard, the part in which he wanted to feel Bertie's face, that made sense and was reasonable.
But I think when you tell someone to feel your scar and stick thier fingers in your eye sockets, that is a little extreme.
Yes I was aware the Bertie really was uncomftrable with any sort of true intimacy with other people. But just the way he was decribed and the fact that he has "girlfriends" but still remains a bachelor, though it is because of his inablity to make true comitment, I could not help but to picture him as being somewhat of a dandy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
[QUOTE=Dark Muse;537693]Mostly I jest, though I did really think that the scene was a bit creepy and it reminded me in someways of Grapes of Wrath at the every end, where the woman nurses from her breast the grown man.[QUOTE]
I knew you were partly jesting because you put hehe first. Wow, I don't recall that part of "The Grapes of Wrath"...it has been years since I read that book - high school to be precise; maybe they gave us the censored version....hehe...now I am jesting. I will have to go back and read that ending again.
Quote:
I understand how the Blindman relies upon his other senses, and though perhaps a bit awakard, the part in which he wanted to feel Bertie's face, that made sense and was reasonable.
Well, I must agree with this and that yes, the part with him forcing poor Bertie to feel his eye-sockets freaked me out, as well. Things like that do. But I can't help but think this was Lawrence's point. Afterall, the husband had to live permanently with these horrible scars and I think he wanted Bertie to know what that would be like; so therefore he had him tactually feel them first-hand, as though he was experiencing his own face.Quote:
But I think when you tell someone to feel your scar and stick thier fingers in your eye sockets, that is a little extreme.
I don't think back then it would have been so unusual for this to be the case with a man. I think this man's concentration was on his work and his ambition and his life went into a mode of acceptance as to his fate being single. He does not sound like the most attractive man in the world and when the wife described his short legs that sounded like a real turn-off to me. I saw him more like the 'clerky' type of guy. What made you think he was more of a 'dandy'? To me he seemed intelligent, but always in full control of himself and unaware of his own emotional makeup.Quote:
Yes I was aware the Bertie really was uncomftrable with any sort of true intimacy with other people. But just the way he was decribed and the fact that he has "girlfriends" but still remains a bachelor, though it is because of his inablity to make true comitment, I could not help but to picture him as being somewhat of a dandy.
Hehe yeah that scene creeped me out a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes I agree that is the case, and at the start of it, when they were first talking over dinner, I thought that Bertie was being a bit tactless and insenstive in the questions he was asking, and the way in which he was talking. It is true that he could not truly understand, untill he in someway experinced it first hand, which had changed his perception.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I do not know, just something about the way his general personality was, and the way in which he seemed kind of gib, and the fact that he is always hagning out with women, without being intimate with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
And in a way it is almost like he was Isabel's girlfriend. And in comparison to Maurice he just did not seem very masculine.
I do agree though that he was not described in a very flattering way.
I agree - from our point of limited view it was kind of creepy, but to Maurice I believe it wasn't at all. Again, I think that is the point that Lawrence was trying to impart to us - how different seeing people's perception is compared to blind people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I got that impression, too and yes, I don't think he could begin to realise or apprehend what it was like to be scared or blinded before the incident in the barn. It had to be first hand and personal.Quote:
Yes I agree that is the case, and at the start of it, when they were first talking over dinner, I thought that Bertie was being a bit tactless and insenstive in the questions he was asking, and the way in which he was talking. It is true that he could not truly understand, untill he in someway experinced it first hand, which had changed his perception.
I didn't see him much different than other characters I have read about in Lawrence's and other's stories of that time period. I just got the impression that he was delicate and rather whimpy. I will have to re-read that part again and see if anything jumps out at me; but as to him being gay, I never picked up that idea from the text.Quote:
I do not know, just something about the way his general personality was, and the way in which he seemed kind of gib, and the fact that he is always hagning out with women, without being intimate with them.
And in a way it is almost like he was Isabel's girlfriend. And in comparison to Maurice he just did not seem very masculine.
I do agree though that he was not described in a very flattering way.
hehe it is probably just meQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Well, but even if he were, it would not have any bearing on the story, do you think? I got more the notion that the husband felt quite left out at the dinner table. I don't think he felt that Bertie could take his place with his wife, but I felt there was a sense of feeling snubbed for the husband and perhaps jealousy. The wife and Bertie could still share the world of the seeing, of which the blind man now was completely excluded. One could certainly see how he would feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Haha, you two always seem to disagree about a character. :D I'll be reading the story during the week.
:lol: haha - and here I thought I safely picked a story neither one of you could acuse the woman of being a b****! I read a few that would have provided women characters who would be prime targets, but I refrained from suggesting those. One such story, "Two Bluebirds", we must eventually read/discuss, because if you and DM thought that other woman was a b****, then wait until you see this wife. Oh my goodness - she takes the cake!Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Virgil, glad you will be reading it too. Take your time. I know this will be a busy hectic week for you.
LOL I am not really disagrering at least not trying to, it was just a funny thought that came to me when I was reading the story, that in my mind I could see him being gay, but it is not really an imporant issue, and I agree that he probably was not intended to be so, just how it came off to me.
I haven't read this story in a while so I don't recall the possible homosexuality. Or let me say I vaguely remember it. But let me just say that at about the time this story was written Lawrence was friends with the philosopher Bertram Russell, who happened to be gay. Lawrence even went to at least one but perhaps several of Russell's parties, which were a gathering of homosexuals. It's hard to say exactly what happened, but Lawrence may have had an initial attraction to homosexuality but shortly then had a major repulsion to it and he and Russell had a big falling out. There is a famous Lawrence letter to Russell that gives Lawrence's side to this. If when i read the story and I think there is a link to Lawrence's life I will find that letter.
OK, Virgil, I know what you are going to say to me next. Janine, could you look in the timeline book and see when the story was written, so that is what I just did....I am one step ahead of you. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I found this entry:
Two curious statements stand out to me here - the first being in Lawrence's own words "but I've done 'The Blind Man' --the end queer and ironical." The statement that follows, I don't quite understand the significance of; I guess I would have to read that essay. Also I don't have assess to Carswell to know the background of the story.Quote:
NOVEMBER 1918 At Chapel Farm Cottage until 14, except for a visit to London 11, for the Armistice party at Montague Shearman's, then at Mountain Cottage, except for a visit to London and Berkshire 23-6.
9 NOV. Lawerence told Catherine Carswell that he was doing 'The Blind Man'.
21 NOV. I've not done 'The Fox yet --but I've done 'The Blind Man' --the end queer and ironical. I realise how many people are just rotten at the quick. I've written three little essays, 'Education of the People' [Moore 566]. For the background to 'The Blind Man' see Carswell 105-6.
23 NOV. Lawrence told Pinker that he had written three short stories, two of which were very good. The third was 'Tickets Please', then called 'John Thomas'. During this month Lawrence had made several visits to a dying friend in Eastwood, and had probably travelled between Ripley and Eastwood by tram.
The other remark that Lawrence saw this story as "very good" stands out to me from this entry.
I just found this commentary online at this site:
http://litmed.med.nyu.edu/Annotation...ew&annid=12343
I found this part noteworthy to post here.
Virgil, do you think the ending is a transfiguration for the two males?Quote:
Although communication, disability, and human connection are three important issues considered in "The Blind Man," a major lesson of the story is aptly summed up by the character, Bertie: "I suppose we're all deficient somewhere" (92). The ending of this tale has a visceral power. The final three pages depicting the emotional transformation (facilitated by the simple act of touching) of the two male characters are riveting.
The conclusion reminds readers of the joy and responsibility of human intimacy. The entire story underscores the difficulty and possibility of rebuilding damaged lives and overcoming loss. There are striking similarities between "The Blind Man" and Raymond Carver's Cathedral (see this database). These two short stories work especially well when read together. Both of them make a convincing argument that of all five human senses, touch is the most powerful.
Thanks Janine. I was going to ask you. ;) Hmm, that's a little later than I thought. The Russell incident happened around 1915 I think.
Gosh, you are fast. Didn't I know it though - I knew you well enough by now, that you would ask me to look it up. hahaha. I get to do all the work. I typed that whole thing out, you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I don't really think there is any suggestion of homosexuality in the story and if it were true that Bertie had those tendancies I don't think that would play into this story or why Maurice, being blind, would instigate the incident in the barn. I did not see that in anyway as a sexual advance. I felt it was purely tackle and to aid in the other man's understanding of what it was to become blind.
Did you read the commentary I just posted - I had to edit to add that to my post so you may have missed it. I found it online. I agree that the ending had a great impact and is viseral. The ending was powerful.
You'll have to wait until I read it. ;) It did cross my mind as I read you and Dark Muse discuss it. If so perhaps I should have used it in my thesis. Could I have missed it? We'll see. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
As to that commentary above. That Raymond Carver story is excellent and I knew it was influenced by Lawrence's The Blind Man. If you get a chance some day, read it.
Oh, how interesting - the Raymond Carver story - do you think I can find it online? the text?
I guess you could have missed this transfiguration. You could only put so much into your thesis and you did a good thorough job, although this might have been an interesting example. I think that Maurice seems transfigured at the end, I am not sure of Bertie. He seemed more stunned; but I have only read the story once, so I might get a whole different impression next time around.
Virgil, guess what? I just found the online text to Cathedral and copied it to my hard-drive. It is at this link, if you are interested in reading it: http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/c...Cathedral2.htm I read a bit about the story on another site; the two stories are so similiar in concept. However, in this story the roles are reversed - the visitor who is an old friend to the wife is the blind man. Her husband is the one who feels threatened byt their closeness. Quite interesting.
Yes I would agree with that. Maurice seemed able to have overcome his initial feelings towrd Bertie after thier experince together, but Bertie, did not really seem to "grow" from the experince, and other than perhaps never wanting to visit thier house again LOL, I do not think he was changed. Rather he seemed rather petrified by both his revulsion of the physcial act, as well as the established intimacy caused from it.
Dark Muse, I got the same impression of the two men and how the felt afterwards, but I am in the midst of re-reading the story now, so that may change as time goes on. I started last night, but only got to about half and thought I would discuss some things that stood out to me up to that point in the story. I recall you or someone else mentioned they could already see the blood consciousness in the story; now that I think of it it was in a PM that Hira sent to me. In the following passages, especially the last part when Maurice is in the house again and alone in the bathroom I believe we do see this coming through quite clearly. This first part though stands out to me in that now Isabel is taken into the blind world of the blind man by entering the darkened barn - she is experiencing her own transfigurative experience by feeling blind herself within the confines of the darkness. If you notice the smells in the barn and the kitchen have been enhanced and when she completely immerses herself in the blackness she experinces sounds and odours completely as new in experience and greatly enhanced. Here it the text to the parts I am referring to:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I underlined the key words and also note twice light or white is mentioned since Isabel will soon be emersed in darkness and obscurity as her husband is in his blindness. Then below is the actual experience in the darkness as she progresses into the sightless night. I thought this writing was brilliant:Quote:
She passed down the wide hall, and through a door at the end. Then she was in the farm premises. The scent of dairy, and of farm-kitchen, and of farm-yard and of leather almost overcame her: but particularly the scent of dairy. They had been scalding out the pans. The flagged passage in front of her was dark, puddled and wet. Light came out from the open kitchen door. She went forward and stood in the doorway. The farm-people were at tea, seated at a little distance from her, round a long, narrow table, in the centre of which stood a white lamp. Ruddy faces, ruddy hands holding food, red mouths working, heads bent over the tea-cups: men, land-girls, boys: it was tea-time, feeding-time. Some faces caught sight of her. Mrs. Wernham, going round behind the chairs with a large black teapot, halting slightly in her walk, was not aware of her for a moment. Then she turned suddenly.
Interesting last line since a few stories I have read of Lawrence's refer to a tower of light for a man and not of darkness. Yes, this line is so significant in this story to my mind and says so much. Amazing writing. Now back in the house - going through the passages back to Isabel's world of sight:Quote:
She pulled on her overshoes, wrapped a large tartan shawl around her, put on a man's felt hat, and ventured out along the causeways of the first yard. It was very dark. The wind was roaring in the great elms behind the outhouses. When she came to the second yard the darkness seemed deeper. She was unsure of her footing. She wished she had brought a lantern. Rain blew against her. Half she liked it, half she felt unwilling to battle.
She reached at last the just visible door of the stable. There was no sign of a light anywhere. Opening the upper half, she looked in: into a simple well of darkness. The smell of horses, and ammonia, and of warmth was startling to her, in that full night. She listened with all her ears, but could hear nothing save the night, and the stirring of a horse.
'Maurice!' she called, softly and musically, though she was afraid. 'Maurice--are you there?'
Nothing came from the darkness. She knew the rain and wind blew in upon the horses, the hot animal life. Feeling it wrong, she entered the stable, and drew the lower half of the door shut, holding the upper part close. She did not stir, because she was aware of the presence of the dark hindquarters of the horses, though she could not see them, and she was afraid. Something wild stirred in her heart.
She listened intensely. Then she heard a small noise in the distance--far away, it seemed--the chink of a pan, and a man's voice speaking a brief word. It would be Maurice, in the other part of the stable. She stood motionless, waiting for him to come through the partition door. The horses were so terrifyingly near to her, in the invisible.
The loud jarring of the inner door-latch made her start; the door was opened. She could hear and feel her husband entering and invisibly passing among the horses near to her, in darkness as they were, actively intermingled. The rather low sound of his voice as he spoke to the horses came velvety to her nerves. How near he was, and how invisible! The darkness seemed to be in a strange swirl of violent life, just upon her. She turned giddy.
Her presence of mind made her call, quietly and musically:
'Maurice! Maurice--dea-ar!'
'Yes,' he answered. 'Isabel?'
She saw nothing, and the sound of his voice seemed to touch her.
'Hello!' she answered cheerfully, straining her eyes to see him. He was still busy, attending to the horses near her, but she saw only darkness. It made her almost desperate.
'Won't you come in, dear?' she said.
'Yes, I'm coming. Just half a minute. Stand over--now! Trap's not come, has it?'
'Not yet,' said Isabel.
His voice was pleasant and ordinary, but it had a slight suggestion of the stable to her. She wished he would come away. Whilst he was so utterly invisible she was afraid of him.
'How's the time?' he asked.
'Not yet six,' she replied. She disliked to answer into the dark. Presently he came very near to her, and she retreated out of doors.
'The weather blows in here,' he said, coming steadily forward, feeling for the doors. She shrank away. At last she could dimly see him.
'Bertie won't have much of a drive,' he said, as he closed the doors.
'He won't indeed!' said Isabel calmly, watching the dark shape at the door.
'Give me your arm, dear,' she said.
She pressed his arm close to her, as she went. But she longed to see him, to look at him. She was nervous. He walked erect, with face rather lifted, but with a curious tentative movement of his powerful, muscular legs. She could feel the clever, careful, strong contact of his feet with the earth, as she balanced against him. For a moment he was a tower of darkness to her, as if he rose out of the earth.
What a contrast at first to her view of him in the yard with feet planted firmly on the ground. Now in the house he "wavered, and went cautiously".Quote:
In the house-passage he wavered, and went cautiously, with a curious look of silence about him as he felt for the bench. Then he sat down heavily. He was a man with rather sloping shoulders, but with heavy limbs, powerful legs that seemed to know the earth. His head was small, usually carried high and light. As he bent down to unfasten his gaiters and boots he did not look blind. His hair was brown and crisp, his hands were large, reddish, intelligent, the veins stood out in the wrists; and his thighs and knees seemed massive. When he stood up his face and neck were surcharged with blood, the veins stood out on his temples. She did not look at his blindness.
This last part one can see that transition again back into Isabel's world of sight and how unsure the blind man is at first coming back into this world, until he gets his bearings again. Then when he goes upstairs, again he is enveloped in his own world of sightlessness and darkness:Quote:
Isabel was always glad when they had passed through the dividing door into their own regions of repose and beauty. She was a little afraid of him, out there in the animal grossness of the back. His bearing also changed, as he smelt the familiar, indefinable odour that pervaded his wife's surroundings, a delicate, refined scent, very faintly spicy. Perhaps it came from the pot-pourri bowls.
Here is where the Lawrence idea and philosophy of blood consciousness comes into the story strongly stated. The writing is so poetic and flows as the consciousness does. Wonderfully expressed in this last paragraph!Quote:
He went away upstairs. She saw him mount into the darkness, unseeing and unchanging. He did not know that the lamps on the upper corridor were unlighted. He went on into the darkness with unchanging step. She heard him in the bathroom.
Pervin moved about almost unconsciously in his familiar surroundings, dark though everything was. He seemed to know the presence of objects before he touched them. It was a pleasure to him to rock thus through a world of things, carried on the flood in a sort of blood-prescience. He did not think much or trouble much. So long as he kept this sheer immediacy of blood-contact with the substantial world he was happy, he wanted no intervention of visual consciousness. In this state there was a certain rich positivity, bordering sometimes on rapture. Life seemed to move in him like a tide lapping, and advancing, enveloping all things darkly. It was a pleasure to stretch forth the hand and meet the unseen object, clasp it, and possess it in pure contact. He did not try to remember, to visualize. He did not want to. The new way of consciousness substituted itself in him.
This further expands on the idea and how when he is not intune with the blood consciousness or given over to it his life is then in chaos.Quote:
The rich suffusion of this state generally kept him happy, reaching its culmination in the consuming passion for his wife. But at times the flow would seem to be checked and thrown back. Then it would beat inside him like a tangled sea, and he was tortured in the shattered chaos of his own blood. He grew to dread this arrest, this throw-back, this chaos inside himself, when he seemed merely at the mercy of his own powerful and conflicting elements. How to get some measure of control or surety, this was the question. And when the question rose maddening in him, he would clench his fists as if he would compel the whole universe to submit to him. But it was in vain. He could not even compel himself.
Yes, when I was reading over the story, it seems to me that in someways, Isabel seems to take her husband's blindness on to herself. As when he husband is in darkness, or when she could not see him, he becomes invisible to her, and she becomes frightend of him, and she is only reassured once she can see him again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, I rather liked the line, and in many ways, Isabel seems to take a comfort within the blindess of her husband, though sometimes it becomes overwhelming and frightening, it seems to her also exhilierating, as it does not seem he attempts in anyway to prevent her from acting within the world outside of him, but she seems to choose to live in isolation with him, and seems content in doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
DM - be back later and can answer your post then. I am going out now - it is 63 degrees here today - have to take advantage. I need some fresh air!
Well, I am back, but too tired now to post futher in ideas that what I posted earlier.
Dark Muse, did you read my last post? It was pretty involved and I thought you would comment directly on some of the points I made in that post. Hopefully tomorrow Quark or Virgil will comment on Lawrence's blood philosophy and other points I was trying to make in my last longer post. For now, until, I read more of the story I don't know what else to post about. Note - I underlined a lot of key words and phrases in that post.
Quote by Dark Muse:
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Yes, when I was reading over the story, it seems to me that in someways, Isabel seems to take her husband's blindness on to herself. As when he husband is in darkness, or when she could not see him, he becomes invisible to her, and she becomes frightend of him, and she is only reassured once she can see him again.
Good point about being frightened of him when she could not see him. Yes, she is only reassured when she is able to use her sight to see him or perceive him again. This shows the difference between how they perceive each other. The is more tackle and she more rooted in the visual world. Of course and naturally this would be the case.
In someways this is true...that Isabel takes on her husband's blindness, but I am not entirely sure it is true at the same time. I think he does become depressed and possibly feels quilty for being blind and not being as he had been and so this may effect Isabel's mood and in this respect she is altered by his blindness. I think she then feels that if she tries harder or is closer to him then all will be in harmony between them. I believe in the passages I quoted it begins to give the man's point of view as to how he feels at times that that balance is disturbed and he and his wife are no longer in harmony with each other. This would be understandable, one person being blind while the other is capable of sight. It would be hard for a seeing person to fully comprehend the invisible world of the sightless.
Quote by Dark Muse:
Because of their seclusiveness and keeping to themselves, I think this is true and yet when he is depressed, something else happens to awake a restlessness in each of them. I, therefore, do not think that Isabel is entirely content, in being the 'be all' and 'end all' of her husband's sightless world; I think he also is unhappy at these times. This would be part of that 'chaos' he feels when they are not synchronized. I think in the first year they were in harmony but now reality has set in and they have not maintained this level of intimacy at all times. There are times the slip out of this harmony and then Isabel worries about her husband and he, no doubt, feels somewhat insecure, about his position of being blind.Quote:
Yes, I rather liked the line, and in many ways, Isabel seems to take a comfort within the blindess of her husband, though sometimes it becomes overwhelming and frightening, it seems to her also exhilierating, as it does not seem he attempts in anyway to prevent her from acting within the world outside of him, but she seems to choose to live in isolation with him, and seems content in doing so.
Hope that answered some of your comments, DM.
Well I fear admitidly, I cannot really make any coments in regaurds to the blood consciousness theroy which was discussed within your post, becasue I haven't a grasp as to just what it is or what it consitutues so I cannot really evulaute it properly as it is related to the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, that is true, there are ways and instanceas in which there is a speration between them, becasue in many ways they live in two different worlds, and priecive the world in different ways, so there are points in which this does cause strain upon them, and in someways, though she does become of part of her husbands world, she also remains in her own world, and does seem to express certain anxieites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Here is one of the phrases of which I found quite interesting:
I think in many ways the coming of the child is the center of a light of her anxiety about her situation with her husband. For because of his blindness he very much has to depend upon her, and so as she expreses her worry about caring for her child as well as her husbandQuote:
She wanted to be allowed to bear her child in peace, to nod by the fire and drift vaugely, physicaly, from day to day. Maurice was like an ominous thunder-cloud. She had to keep waking up to remember him.
She addresses her concerns reguarding her husbands depression, and shows she is worried that though they both wanted the baby, he will feel in someways more left out once she has it.Quote:
The child would occupy her love and attention. Ans then what of Maurice? What would he do? If only she could feel that he too would be at peach and happy when the child came! She did so want to luxuriate in a rich, physical satisfaction of maternity. But the man, what would he do? How could she provide for him, how avert those shattering black moods of his, which destoryed them both.
Yes it is true they do have thier moments of turmoil but really I think they are dealing with it, and I do not think it has caused too big of a wedge between them, at least not yet. Though within the story we can see the begining of worry between them, and concerns about thier relationship with each other.Quote:
Because of their seclusiveness and keeping to themselves, I think this is true and yet when he is depressed, something else happens to awake a restlessness in each of them. I, therefore, do not think that Isabel is entirely content, in being the 'be all' and 'end all' of her husband's sightless world; I think he also is unhappy at these times. This would be part of that 'chaos' he feels when they are not synchronized. I think in the first year they were in harmony but now reality has set in and they have not maintained this level of intimacy at all times. There are times the slip out of this harmony and then Isabel worries about her husband and he, no doubt, feels somewhat insecure, about his position of being blind.
There was the conversation between Maurice and Bertie towrd the end, addressing Maurice's insecurties:
There was also the moment when Bertie had first arrived and he was upstrais listening to them:Quote:
'She says she's content-only a little troubled about you'
'Why me?'
'Perhaps afraid that you might brood' said Bertie cautiously
'She needn't be afraid of that' He continued to caress the flattend grey head of the cat with his fingers. 'What I am afraid of' he resumed, 'is that she'll find me a dead weight, always aone with me down here'
'I don't think you need think that' said Bertie, though this was what he feared himself.
' I don't know' said Maurice. 'Sometimes I feel it isn't fair that she's saddled with me'
Here he is confronted with the fact that he is apart from the world when Isabel's frined comes over, and they can share in the world of sight togehter, something Maurice cannot have with his wife, and he feels the insecurity of this and the accute sense of someone else being able to share a part of his wife's life that he cannot.Quote:
They moved away. Pervin hear no more. But a childish sense of desolation had come over him, as he heard thier brisk voices. He seemed shut out-like a child that is left out. He was aimless and exlcuded , he did not know what to do with himself. The helpless desolation came over him. He fumbled nervously as he dressed himself, in a state of childishness. He disliked the Scotch accent in Bertie's speach, and the slight response if found on Isabel's tounge. He disliked the slight purr of conplanceancy in the Scottish speach. He disliked intensely the glib way in which Isabel spoke of thier happiness and nearness. It made him recoil. He was fretful and beside himself like a child, he had almost a chidlish nostalgia to be included the life circle. And at that same time he was a man, dark and powerful and infuriated with his own weakness. By some fatal flaw, he could not be by himself, he had to depend on the support of another. And this very dependence enraged him. He hated Bertie Reid, and at the same time he knew the hatred was nonsense, he knew it was the outcome of his weakness.
Dark Muse, Sorry to keep you waiting again. Oh, don't fear admittedly, I didn't mean to make you feel that way. I thought you had recalled what was said about it before in one of the previous stories. I find it difficult myself to explain it. I think it was featured some in "Odour Of Chrysanthamums" and I know so in "Horse-Dealer's Daughter" but you may not have joined the group at that point. I had forgotten that, you seem like such a devote now, DM.;) I think Virgil is the best one to explain this aspect of Lawrence's work but the idea was suggested to me by Hira in a recent PM to me about the story. As I was re-reading the story that night I came across that passage the actually used the words and made it so obvious. Only way I can explain it is that the husband embodies the blood-philosophy idea of Lawrence - in other words he relates from the blood and the flesh and not from strickly the intellect. If you notice Bertie they describe as smarter or keener of mind than Maurice. When Maurice goes up to the bathroom he allows this blood consciousness to dominate because he gives into the fact of it and so everything (his existence) flows naturally. Bertie, who cannot connect with the blood consciousness is stiff and contained and remains appart - disconnected from other humans and his own inner blood consiciousness. I think I am close in this explaination but no doubt Virgil will want to add more to it. He knows more than I do verbally. I know more instinctively just what Lawrence means by it. Virgil is busy, no doubt since his mother just had surgery, so let's give him a few days to address this part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I think this also and the fact that now Maurice cannot enter his wife's sightful world and must remain, in a way, imprisioned in his own dark invisible sightless world. Isabel can however experience the sightless world in the darkness of the barn or otherwise. Therefore the only plane they can meet on is in the world devoid of eye-sight. This does not mean they don't also experience something much deeper and more mysterious now, but sometimes the rapture of this 'other preception' causes them both deep anxiety and stress. This can be well understood.Quote:
Yes, that is true, there are ways and instanceas in which there is a speration between them, becasue in many ways they live in two different worlds, and priecive the world in different ways, so there are points in which this does cause strain upon them, and in someways, though she does become of part of her husbands world, she also remains in her own world, and does seem to express certain anxieites.
Yes, thanks for quoting this. It is quite an interesting passage. If you think of it after the child arrives then the household or family will consist of two sighted people and one unsighted man. Surely the husband and the wife would have their worries and anxieties about that fact. Also the dependency factor is a big one. I am sure Isabel longs for the situation of her maternity to be a natural and normal one but how can it when Maurice is sometimes depressed over his situation.Quote:
Here is one of the phrases of which I found quite interesting:
I think in many ways the coming of the child is the center of a light of her anxiety about her situation with her husband. For because of his blindness he very much has to depend upon her, and so as she expreses her worry about caring for her child as well as her husband
I pretty much said this and agreed with you above.Quote:
She addresses her concerns reguarding her husbands depression, and shows she is worried that though they both wanted the baby, he will feel in someways more left out once she has it.
Yes, I think basically they are dealing with it and they seem truly to love one another. I don't think there is trouble at this point to a major degree but that could change when the child comes along or the child might add to bring them even closer. Remember they lost a child while he was in the war. What hell poor Maurice must have gone through. I think that Lawrence shows here the ravages or the results of the war without actually drawing us into the actual war or the action. I am sure Maurice is only one of many whose lives were drastically changed by the horrors of the First World War. In an offhand way, Lawrence presents war to us. This reminds me of a film I just saw - "Flags of our Fathers" - although some war scenes were shown and were quite graphic much of the movie dealt with the ravages of war - the toll it takes physcologically on the individuals. Blindness would be bad enough but then to have to recall all one went through in a war would also be pretty terrible. If Maurice experiences periods of deep depression one can certainly see how he would have amble cause to feel this way.Quote:
Yes it is true they do have thier moments of turmoil but really I think they are dealing with it, and I do not think it has caused too big of a wedge between them, at least not yet. Though within the story we can see the begining of worry between them, and concerns about thier relationship with each other.
Yes, and I think that this would be realistic. I think one would wonder about how scarred one was and how disfigured. I thought that scene was so touching really and showed the Maurice was only human and had his human weaknesses and concerns.Quote:
There was the conversation between Maurice and Bertie towrd the end, addressing Maurice's insecurties:
Yes, this also shows a realistic Maurice I believe. One can relate to just how he would feel and how insecure knowing now his wife is existing in the intimate world which includes sight and he is deficient in this respect in meeting with her close friend. It would be bad enough the two men might have some sense of rivalry with the wife - not for love but for affection/friendship and therefore with the added factor of Maurice being different than they, then I can well understand his insecure feelings at that moment.Quote:
There was also the moment when Bertie had first arrived and he was upstrais listening to them:
Exactly!.... and you put that so well, DM. Good job on your post. :thumbs_upQuote:
Here he is confronted with the fact that he is apart from the world when Isabel's frined comes over, and they can share in the world of sight togehter, something Maurice cannot have with his wife, and he feels the insecurity of this and the accute sense of someone else being able to share a part of his wife's life that he cannot.
This is fun but I hope a few others show up soon.
I came into the group right after you finnished up the storyQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Odour Of Chrysanthamums
I will eagery await to hear what Virgil has to say upon the subject, but your own explination did much to help my understanding on the subject. I can see what you mean in the comparrioson between Bertie and Maurice.
Bertie is talked about as being much more of the intellectual and seems unconected with the physical world in someways, both in his lack of ablity to connect with people, as well as well you cannot picture Bertie getting his hands dirty.
While Maurice, though he is said to be more slow, and is portrayed as perhaps not being as witty as Bertie is, he enjoys phyiscal labor, and has a strong connection to working with the earth. This could be a result of his blindness, as the need to really be hands on with the earth to reassure of himself of its exisitinces, and having to live in a different world, than Bertie, while Bertie might take these things for granted, sense he is part of the seeing world, there is the one comparrison Isabel gives:
I underlined what I thought were the key phrases, Maurice is portrayed as being much more emotional than Bertie is as Bertie lives more in the world of the mind, or thoughts and ideas, while Maurice lives closer to the earth, and more in the physical world before him.Quote:
Bertie was a barrister and a man of letters, a Scotchman of the intellectual type, quick, ironical, sentimental, and on his knees before the woman he adored but did not want to marry. Maurice Pervin was different. He came of good old country family-the Grange was not a very great distance from Oxford. He was passionate, snsitive, perhaps over-senstive, wincing, a big fellow with heavy limbs and a forehead that flushed painfully. For his mind was slow, as if drugged by the strong provincial blood that beat in his veins. He was very senstive to his own mental slowness, his feelings being quick and acute. So that he was just the oppisite of Bertie whose mind was much quicker than his emotions which were not so very fine.
Perhaps this is do to the fact that the world at large, is lost to Maurice becasue he cannot see it he can only know what is directly under him. While Bertie perhaps does not see what is right before him, becaue he can look far ahead of him. He is not so much tied to the present.
Yes that is a good point. In someways Isabel has a bit of an unfair advantage over her husband, there are ways in which a person can prohbiit thier sight, and yet there is know way a blind person can see. So his wife can in someways, become a part of his world, and to a degree experince what he experinces, but she has the knoweledge of being able to escape that as well. She is not trapped within it forever, and it allows the wife to become apart of both worlds, while her husband must only stay within his own dark world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes this is quite true, and I think Isabel might have anxieites over wondering wheather having the child will lesson her husbands depression of if it will worsen it, and how she is going to find a balance between the two. The child could put an extra strain upon some of the struggles they are having now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I also found it interesting that as Isabel is getting ready to have her child, Maurice, begins to view himself as a child becasue of his dependency and sense of helplessness.
Yes, you make a good point about the war, it is true, within this story we do not need any actual secnes of account of the war to see just how it can effect and ravish the lives of the people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
As you get the impression, from the fact that they did try to have a child before, and how they are dealing with their problems now, that they were always a happy loving couple but now the affects of the war has reached into thier lives and has threatened thier exisitince together. Put a marr on thier happiness, and what could have been the picture of a "perfect" family. In the way that Maurice has been scared, there has been a scar put on thier happiness and life together. Something that will never go away even if it can be overcome or worked around.
I wonder with the discussion of Maurice's depression within the story, and the dark moods that sometimes come over him, was there knowledge of PTSD (Post tramatic stress disorder) doing the time period in which the story was written?
Yes that is very true. It was a very real moment, as well as the fact, that even though they do not really care for each other. Maurcie is able in a way to confinde in Bertie, what perhaps, he fears to speak of with his wife. He can share the fears with the unlikely ally, he does not want Isabel to know he has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine