The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

Yes, and Dittersdorf, Jesuit educated colleague of Mozart, should have known. He was awarded papally approved membership of the Order of the Golden Spur in 1770, as was Abbe Georg Vogler and Mozart himself. In that same year.

Dittersdorf was closely associated with Count Giacommo Durazzo, the Venetian nobleman who hired Andrea Luchesi to be Kapellmeister at Bonn, a position wanted by Mozart himself. Dittersdorf was also closely associated with Esterhazy (cousin of Durazzo) by marriage and patron of Josef Haydn. (Whose own story has hardly been told).

The European aristocracy and the fraternities of those times could literally invent a musical genius. And they did so. Often. In Mozart's case with the input of dozens of composers, publishers, music editors, fiction writers and a cast of hundreds. As for the musicians involved and their own music, both are largely ignored today.

J.B. Vanhal (1739-1813)
Symphony in G Minor
Minuetto/Finale

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fio9...eature=related

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

The composer Dittersdorf(!)-http://www.hoasm.org/XIIC/Dittersdorf.html-noted in his biography* that Joseph II compared Mozart’s compositions to that of a gold snuffbox crafted in Paris(!!), while Joseph Haydn’s were those of a snuffbox finished off in London(!!!).

*His memoirs, Lebenbeschreibung, were published in Leipzig in 1801: http://www.zeno.org/Musik/M/Ditters+...nsbeschreibung

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If only your theory on the manufacturer would tally with the opinion shared by Kessler and Joseph II!

Still, there is always room for more fiction!

:Angel_anim:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Musicology

Yes, and Dittersdorf, Jesuit educated colleague of Mozart, should have known. He was awarded papally approved membership of the Order of the Golden Spur in 1770, as was Abbe Georg Vogler and Mozart himself. In that same year.

Dittersdorf was closely associated with Count Giacommo Durazzo, the Venetian nobleman who hired Andrea Luchesi to be Kapellmeister at Bonn, a position wanted by Mozart himself. Dittersdorf was also closely associated with Esterhazy (cousin of Durazzo) by marriage and patron of Josef Haydn. (Whose own story has hardly been told).

The European aristocracy and the fraternities of those times could literally invent a musical genius. And they did so. Often. In Mozart's case with the input of dozens of composers, publishers, music editors, fiction writers and a cast of hundreds. As for the musicians involved and their own music, both are largely ignored today.

J.B. Vanhal (1739-1813)
Symphony in G Minor
Minuetto/Finale

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fio9...eature=related

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Yanni,

The Emperor Josef 2nd died in 1790. Relevant to which is the fact that even at that time only a few works of 'Mozart' had been published in Vienna. This, of course, you did not know. (You may consult the entry made by JN Forkel of 1787 on 'Mozart' for that fact, amongst others). (And the views you are providing from Josef 2nd (obviously) were given by him before that year of his death 1790. This will not be difficult for you, Yanni, to accept as true. Although the implications of it may have you struggling). At which time, as said, only a few dozen published works known in Vienna are being described. Whose publication, as it happens, certainly involved Paris. Including 3 piano 'Mozart' concertos (these published in Vienna by Artaria etc in 1783/4) but actually composed by the blind Teresia von Paradis (1754-1824) - herself at the time still in Paris. (Paris being the city she visited no less than 8 times over those years and which was (as you may care to prove for yourself) the base for her career as a virtuoso pianist and composer in those very years). The same Paradis who said (late in life) 'and yet, do you think my music will be heard as mine, whether you know it or not' ? The same Paradis who escaped the clutches of the banned mesmerist Anton Mesmer and his 'house arrest' in Vienna of the same Paradis - he being a close friend of Leopold Mozart and his son, Wolfgang. As you perhaps know already ?

Yes, there is ''always room for more fiction'' Yanni ! You can provide it at any time. It always entertains !

Maurice Ravel
Concerto in G
2nd Movement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsoSvHdcCv0

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

If only your theory on the manufacturer would tally with the opinion shared by Kessler and Joseph II!

Still, there is always room for more fiction!

:Angel_anim:

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Better use your lively imagination on you Mozart novel, Robert.

Yanni,

There is nothing more lively than life itself ! LOL !

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, and even waddles like a duck, you can be reasonably sure it IS a duck.

(Excerpt from 'Comedy of Errors' Volume 9)

:crash:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Better use your lively imagination on you Mozart novel, Robert.

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Esteeme a duck, according to his pace, But loose no wagers on a wilde goose chase.

All change is welcome except that which challenges our dogmas. Dogmas that we, the professedly wise, have funded as historical monuments.

Con Fucious and UN Control of Education (so-called)

Antonio Salieri (1750-1825)
Overture to Comic Opera
"Der Rauchfangkehrer"
1781

//

Antonio Salieri (1750-1825)
Overture
Opera
''Cublai''
1787

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-se5vUoow0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx9VH...eature=related

Ideefix was indeed designed to represent "dog-mass" but was subordinate to Asterix, in turn yielding his veto in the UN in many important matters, excluding education however. This was left to the care of the many local Obelixes, each training his own little Ideefixes!

The famous trio never visited the Far East and their performance beyond the Wild West has been mediocre!

:yesnod:




All change is welcome except that which challenges our dogmas. Dogmas that we, the professedly wise, have funded as historical monuments.

Con Fucious and UN Control of Education (so-called)

LOL,

We only need to open the curtains to see the sun is shining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySKtp...eature=related

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Ideefix was indeed designed to represent "dog-mass" but was subordinate to Asterix, in turn yielding his veto in the UN in many important matters, excluding education however. This was left to the care of the many local Obelixes, each training his own little Ideefixes!

The famous trio never visited the Far East and their performance beyond the Wild West has been mediocre!

:yesnod:




All change is welcome except that which challenges our dogmas. Dogmas that we, the professedly wise, have funded as historical monuments.

Con Fucious and UN Control of Education (so-called)

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While at it, do let some fresh air in!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Musicology

LOL,

We only need to open the curtains to see the sun is shining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySKtp...eature=related

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Musicology

..W.A. Mozart, during a musical examination taken in Bologna as a 14 year old boy during his visit to there of 12th October 1770 (when he wished to become a musical member of the Academy of Bologna), did NOT complete the required musical examination successfully. ... Padre Martini (a friend of the Mozart family there in Italy and essential for the growing reputation of the 'genius') re-wrote the exam paper FOR Mozart minutes afterwards (which Mozart then faithfully copied and submitted as his own entry for membership).
By 1846 (after a ton of other publications) this sequence of stage managed events had been forgotten by Mozart biographers and Mozart was routinely being credited with having passed the Bologna exam successfully on his own !
..during the early 1770’s W.A. Mozart as a teenager had still learned almost nothing of counterpoint and composition. A fact confirmed by other documentary evidence.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Musicology

Yes, and Dittersdorf, Jesuit educated colleague of Mozart...
...involved and their own music, both are largely ignored today.

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Yanni,
Once again, I beg your indulgence in allowing me to impose on your thread with a couple more relevant sonata quotes.

Regarding Robert’s comments about the Jesuits, Padre Martini, the infamous exam, all of which I will generally categorize as Mozart’s “education”, I offer:

“According to my sources, I am told that Mozart was home schooled during his formative years in Salzburg, by Leopold and a hermit by the name of Andiamo from Azpeitia (Saint Ignatius’ birth turf) Spain…

…Andiamo was a brother in the St. Maximus hermitage located in the caves formed in the cliffs just to the northwest of the city. Andiamo’s presence in the Salzburg hermitage was a result of a hermit lend lease program established between Austria and Spain…

[Pope Clement XIII capitulated to the demands of Salzburg faithful who insisted that the hermit program be implemented realizing the value of Spanish hermits as a homeshooling educational resource]

...Leopold volunteered his spacious Geburtshaus for all the children to gather for their lessons.
It should be mentioned that during the latter part of the eighteenth century, homeschooling was becoming a popular alternative to the Jesuit controlled public schools of the time. Many conservatives throughout the Bible belt region of Europe had grown despondent with the secular and humanistic curriculum of the Jesuits.”

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Musicology

LOL,
We only need to open the curtains to see the sun is shining.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

While at it, do let some fresh air in!

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Regarding the opening of curtains and windows and fresh air:

“…Later that day the weather improved to the point that I was able to open a window allowing some fresh air into the house. I placed a speaker by the window with the intent to spin one of my Bach LP’s to calm the Freemasons nerves as you suggested, but it turned out to be pointless due to the fact that my neighbor was already entertaining them with an a-cappella rendition of Floyd-“…just another brick in the wall…”

The reference to Bach in the aforementioned quote may serve us well in swinging this controversial craft around on its rightful tack, back to the familiar waters of Handel and Bach.


Gilliatt

Hi there Gilliat Gurgle,

You have quoted somebody unnamed who wrote -

“According to my sources, I am told that Mozart was home schooled during his formative years in Salzburg, by Leopold and a hermit by the name of Andiamo from Azpeitia (Saint Ignatius’ birth turf) Spain… …Andiamo was a brother in the St. Maximus hermitage located in the caves formed in the cliffs just to the northwest of the city. Andiamo’s presence in the Salzburg hermitage was a result of a hermit lend lease program established between Austria and Spain..

And what sources are these, please ?

The fact is the 'exam' Mozart took in Bologna was stage managed. That's a plain, documentary and verifiable fact. Recognised by all who have examined the still surviving music in both versions and confirmed by evidence already published here a few days ago. Furthermore, even the Bologna certificate supposedly issued to Mozart is a fake (the one published as early as 1846 in a Mozart biography of that year) and was not, actually, what the Bologna exam board issue. This too is confirmed by the research of A. Taboga, L. Bianchini, A. Trombetta and others. It too was manipulated. And, as for writing down a mass from memory in Rome...........LOL !!!!!! There comes a point where these fairy tales have to be separated from historical/musical reality. No ? Or else we become educated fools. I hope you agree (?).

Furthermore (as if it couldn't get worse) I have to hand a surviving letter from September 1777 (written when Mozart was 21 years old) by Leopold Mozart in which he tells Padre Martini the views of Prince Archbishop Colloredo of Salzburg on the subject of his son. Colloredo said (and I quote) -

'Furthermore, your son has never studied music. And he really should go to school. He should make the effort to enrol in a school which teaches the subject. Naples is one'''....

Leopold Mozart continues in the same letter, ''because of this Wolfgang has quit the service of the Archbishop here in Salzburg and has left here ...''

(Needless to say, the text of this letter never appears in Mozart biographies also). LOL !

It's catastrophic because this is the end of centuries of fiction, exaggeration and invention.

And that's Mozart aged 21 !! Leopold Mozart did NOT teach Mozart or anyone else music. There is no reference to it at all in the entire (voluminous) Mozart family correspondence. Leopold was raised to a token position of Deputy Kapellmeister only weeks before he left Salzburg for a year and more. Never doing anything of that kind in reality. And W.A. Mozart never went to school. Of any kind. Ever. A fact still true in 1777, as said. And so it continued.

As for ''Andiamo from Azpeitia'', yes, please, can you provide some details of your sources etc. I will examine them closely. And gladly. Leopold Mozart was a dealer in music. He was no composer himself. He was appointed as a valet and as a 4th violinist - the lowest position. 10 years later he rose no higher than 2nd violin. He taught nobody.

J.C. Bach
Concerto in D
2nd Movement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncwto...eature=related

Regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Musicology

Hi there Gilliat Gurgle,

You have quoted somebody unnamed who wrote -

“According to my sources, I am told that Mozart was home schooled during his formative years in Salzburg, by Leopold and a hermit by the name of Andiamo from Azpeitia (Saint Ignatius’ birth turf) Spain… …Andiamo was a brother in the St. Maximus hermitage located in the caves formed in the cliffs just to the northwest of the city. Andiamo’s presence in the Salzburg hermitage was a result of a hermit lend lease program established between Austria and Spain..

And what sources are these, please ?

"...by Leopold Mozart in which he tells Padre Martini the views of Prince Archbishop Colloredo of Salzburg on the subject of his son. Colloredo said (and I quote) -

...Leopold Mozart did NOT teach Mozart or anyone else music.
... And W.A. Mozart never went to school. Of any kind. Ever. A fact still true in 1777, as said. And so it continued.

As for ''Andiamo from Azpeitia'', yes, please, can you provide some details of your sources etc. I will examine them closely.
...He taught nobody.

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Robert, or Musicology (would you rather I use Musicology?)
Let me firts begin by begging your forgiveness, for I have had a bit too much French wine no thanks to the Neely and Brian Bean discussions on the eating thread.

My dear friend the quotes are from yours truly, borrowed from another thread, a fact that I felt was established, though subtly, when I stated "...couple more relevant sonata quotes."
I was trying not to come across as too slef (oops) self serving by using a lower case "s" and not naming the entire thread.

Once again, my understanding of the facts behind Mozart's manufacture, were presented to me by my friends back in Dumas Texas. i.e. Jack Russell aka "The Terrier" or "The Shaman", Dusty Rhoads, Rusty Springs, Father Andrea Martini, Billy Aristotle, et al.

Your friend,
Gilliatt

ps - Yanni
Again, my apologies for drifting off course.


.

Distinguishing between reality and fiction (not always malintentioned) is a 24/7 neccessity, a way of life, Gilliat.

Another choice is a selfcreated dreamworld.

Beaver and butterfly, both to my liking and respect. (In this day and age, both equally "heroic" propably).


'ps - Yanni
Again, my apologies for drifting off course.'

Dear Gilliat Gurgle,

Thank you for reminding me that French wine is no respector of persons ! I remember a mad summer in Dordogne (SW France) when the properties of a cheap, rustic wine there (sold in a bottle of 5 litres) was the cause of more laughter (and headaches) than any politician I ever heard. I would not be surprised if it had other properties (such as being able to remove enamel paint from radiators). Though we bought it with the most wonderful cheese and bread and it has its place, somewhere, in the chronicles of my more memorable and hazy days.

Speaking of which, if Yanni is correct, fact and fiction are in the eyes of the beholder and (he may argue) we owe a pilgrimage of penanance to the colossos of Rhodes or to the Mozart mega momument - though the second towers so oppressively over our education.

LOL :smilielol5:

Very best wishes

Robert

Giuseppe Sarti (1729-1802)
Overture from Opera
''Giulio Sabino''
1781

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vmZI...eature=related

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle

Robert, or Musicology (would you rather I use Musicology?)
Let me firts begin by begging your forgiveness, for I have had a bit too much French wine no thanks to the Neely and Brian Bean discussions on the eating thread.

My dear friend the quotes are from yours truly, borrowed from another thread, a fact that I felt was established, though subtly, when I stated "...couple more relevant sonata quotes."
I was trying not to come across as too slef (oops) self serving by using a lower case "s" and not naming the entire thread.

Once again, my understanding of the facts behind Mozart's manufacture, were presented to me by my friends back in Dumas Texas. i.e. Jack Russell aka "The Terrier" or "The Shaman", Dusty Rhoads, Rusty Springs, Father Andrea Martini, Billy Aristotle, et al.

Your friend,
Gilliatt

ps - Yanni
Again, my apologies for drifting off course.


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