Why I believe in God?

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Originally Posted by jakobmuller

Why do you believe in Santa?
"well DUH, how else do you think all these presents got under the tree??!! Who else could have eaten the cookies?!"

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It was me i ate the cookies and i created the universe. There that should end the whole religion debate. haha

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Originally Posted by Judas130

Not so. Everything, however little, has some abstract and physical worth. The Sun, for example, is not worthless for it is needed for there to be much of the life we see on this planet (and to see naturally at all for that matter).

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Hey, it wasn't me who said everything was worthless. The guy earlier in the thread said that without God everything would be worthless. And maybe it would, but that doesn't make God exist.

Me, I think that it's possible - indeed, more believable - that things have worth without God.

And that's my point. If you need God to give things worth, go ahead. Be my guest.


Me, all I need to give things worth is...well, the things that to me give things worth. And one of them, just so you know, is not God.


However, just to address your rebuttal of the notion, you suggest that the sun has worth because it sustains life on this planet. Which would suggest that life on the planet has worth. Which then needs justifying.

I think we need to define 'worth' then. If we mean 'purpose' then I disagree. I can't see any, in anything, not on any scale that appears sensible. If we mean 'value' then, yeah, locally, subjectively and selectively - some stuff has worth. I mean, me and my kids - lots of worth. The Siberian tiger - some worth. Jeffery Archer - no worth at all.

But that would be true with or without God. Especially the bit about Jeffery Archer.

It doesn't really work that way Rorshach, but

...damn my cynical nature. :(

To answer grotto's question, i'll put up the argument of indoctrination, conformity, and upbringing as factors that influence belief in a religion. However, I am not wholly right, as these factors may be the case up until a certain age, but doesn't explain how adults later turn to religions from nothing previous.
I think what attracts many adults into belief is a sense of calamity, or peace both inner and outer, and some real love. Someone mentioned on these forums once that it takes a great deal more to turn from God, or your belief, than turn to it - as your mind searches for spiritual conclusions, not to empirical fact, but to spiritual purpose - questions asked from childhood and to deny this, to cut off and isolate yourself from a higher sense, is a downsight harder.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

However, just to address your rebuttal of the notion, you suggest that the sun has worth because it sustains life on this planet. Which would suggest that life on the planet has worth. Which then needs justifying.

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not at all. my argument is a simple one, that conceptually..everything has worth..i suppose to the eyes of the beholder and to that which is directly affected by it. Your J. Archer example is humorous, but does not mean that the man has no worth - and yes, by worth i do man value and not purpose - as the man has worth to say, a wife, or a dear friend, or his parents and that makes the man have worth - purpose is a whole separate thing, which is something i don't have the capacity to argue at this hour.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

I can't see any, in anything, not on any scale that appears sensible.

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Aristotle opened our eyes to the gift of actuality and potentiality. I'd say if we had purpose, though this is not really what I wanted to talk about..but meh, then it lies in our potential. You child for example, say at the age of four, has the actuality of being four, though has the potential of being 84. This is true at least...we are all two people, our actual and our potential...our potential is our unforeseen purpose.

I'm also very cynical, and personally believe we all live to breed and die...but that's no fun really is it?
purpose has varying meanings...the purpose of a tool is to be used to fix something or make it work. the purpose that we affix to the space between birth and death, is a whole separate matter...some breed of fish, i believe trout or maybe salmon, swim upriver after giving birth, and die...for their purpose is complete...so what have humans got in the same scenario?

peace.

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Originally Posted by Judas130

I'm also very cynical, and personally believe we all live to breed and die...but that's no fun really is it?
peace.

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If you're not having fun then you're not doing it right. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

If you're not having fun then you're not doing it right. :lol:

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brilliant :D

:( shot down like...


...pheasant. :bawling:

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Originally Posted by Judas130

:( shot down like...


...pheasant. :bawling:

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Yes, but did it make you smile? ::D Some times, that's all you can do. You have to watch those who smile through adversity! They know something!

indeed, quite true ;)

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Originally Posted by Judas130

wrong, St Nicholas of Bari is the model for santa clause - He had a reputation for secret gift-giving, such as putting coins in the shoes of those who left them out for him, and thus became the model for Santa Claus, whose English name comes from the German 'Sankt Niklaus.'

"a poor man had three daughters but could not afford a proper dowry for them. This meant that they would remain unmarried and probably, in absence of any other possible employment would have to become prostitutes. Hearing of the poor man's plight, Nicholas decided to help him but being too modest to help the man in public, (or to save the man the humiliation of accepting charity), he went to his house under the cover of night and threw three purses (one for each daughter) filled with gold coins through the window opening into the man's house." (wikipedia 2009)

He is said to have died about 330AD, so the accounts aren't dead certain, but nor is most history (read JBI's ideas in the Bible thread) or the bible for that matter.

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But no historical account of the Santa of which you spoke, you know, the one who travels the world in his sleigh on Christmas Eve?
However, there is a historical account of God's and Jesus's miracles. Jesus died about 33 AD. His death was documented by a secular historian at the time, I believe his name was Josephus. The account of his resurrection was also mentioned by Josephus. You have to study all of this thoroughly. Evidence That Demands a Verdict is an excellent resource if you really want to know the scientific and historical evidence surrounding the Bible. It's not just another fairy tale. It's not like Santa - a kernal of truth because a real nice man named Jesus once lived and people have devised a nice story about him.

Yes, it’s a nice story about a very nice man who lived long, long ago in a very different world. Then, a group of people of dubious origin decide to write about it in the vernacular of the time. Then, let’s not forget all of those after the original writers who had a hand in conveniently adding there own agenda to the story. It has since been manipulated continually for every conceivable gain and manipulation to the point of being a mere fairy tale. Yet every fairy tale has a grain of truth I suppose.

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Originally Posted by grotto

Yes, it’s a nice story about a very nice man who lived long, long ago in a very different world. Then, a group of people of dubious origin decide to write about it in the vernacular of the time. Then, let’s not forget all of those after the original writers who had a hand in conveniently adding there own agenda to the story. It has since been manipulated continually for every conceivable gain and manipulation to the point of being a mere fairy tale. Yet every fairy tale has a grain of truth I suppose.

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And what is the sources of this evident manipulation? Care to quote them? Or is this yet another repeating of what you've heard - you know: hearsay? The coherence of the Bible defies much of this attempt to discredit it. We take for truth ancient texts (like Homer and Plato) with far less credibility behind them (in terms of textual integrity) than the Bible.

Who said I was talking about the bible?

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

We take for truth ancient texts (like Homer and Plato) with far less credibility behind them (in terms of textual integrity) than the Bible.

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The Iliad and the Odyssey don't give an exact set of guidelines by which millions of people live their lives, so we don't have anywhere near as much motive to question them.

I believe in God, most ardently and His son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. I would like to address one of the issues that seems to arise when God is mentioned. If there is a God, how can He let such terrible things happen in the world?
God does not want us to suffer, but he must let us have our own free agency (right to make independent choices) in order for us to become more perfect beings. All of the terrible things that have happened have happened because of human error, and that's okay. When we as humans go through things that are difficult, we have a responsibility to grow from those diversities. It is like a refining fire, we are tossed and turned and burned so that we can become more like God. When a couple goes through tough times, and they try to correct their mistakes and solve their problem, their relationship gets stronger. When natural disasters happen, others rush in and try to help and serve those who have been affected, those people involved can become more like Christ in his perfectness. When someone close to you dies, you have the chance to realize how precious life is. We are on Earth to learn and grow and to be tested. What determines our happiness is how we decide to respond to the trials that are put in our way, will you become bitter with hate or will you try to refine yourself?

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Originally Posted by c4its

I would like to address one of the issues that seems to arise when God is mentioned. If there is a God, how can He let such terrible things happen in the world?

God does not want us to suffer, but he must let us have our own free agency (right to make independent choices) in order for us to become more perfect beings. All of the terrible things that have happened have happened because of human error, and that's okay. When we as humans go through things that are difficult, we have a responsibility to grow from those diversities. It is like a refining fire, we are tossed and turned and burned so that we can become more like God. When a couple goes through tough times, and they try to correct their mistakes and solve their problem, their relationship gets stronger. When natural disasters happen, others rush in and try to help and serve those who have been affected, those people involved can become more like Christ in his perfectness. When someone close to you dies, you have the chance to realize how precious life is. We are on Earth to learn and grow and to be tested. What determines our happiness is how we decide to respond to the trials that are put in our way, will you become bitter with hate or will you try to refine yourself?

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Nicely put, c4its. I also think, it has to be something like this.