Atheists....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adelheid

Now, I'm NOT an atheist, but I've always wondered what exactly an atheist thinks or believes (now there's a contradiction if you've ever seen one! :lol: athesist and believe might as well see if you have a believer who disbelieves. :lol: )

Now what exactly does an atheist believe?? What is the definition you would give to describe an atheist?

I don't know if this is going to a popular thread or not, but I'll give it a try... ;)

---

Well... I don't know whether I should consider myself an aetheist or not... but here's what I think... that most likely... there isn't really a god in the sky... but from watching my grandmother, I love the way she just believes in him and that almost convinces me that there is a god. Sometimes though... I think that it isn't true and the reason why things turn out better for people that truly and deeply believe in God is because they believe in themselves more than anything... they assure themselves that everything is going to be alright because they know that God will open their way. This belief, it brings hope and they will know that something good is going to happen no matter what, so in my view, belief in God=unlimited feeling of hope and that's why I love that belief in God. Even though... the thing is, it's too unlikely that he exists and therefore I choose to not believe in him sometimes because I need to be realistic, things are the way they are, and if there is no God... well I can't just stand there as if a road was going to magically open for me, nothing can ever be gotten from that (even though I do tend to do that either way). Even though, the fact that there is a possibility that he might exist, shift my view every once in a while and well... it gives me faith in him... and thus... I get that feeling of hope, and also... of course if he exists I say "God... if you exist, I'm sorry for not believing... but I just can't prove if you are real... but if you do exist... thank you for what you have done". It doesn't just end there, I continue on "and if there is by any chance more gods... thank you all".

So... where does that put me? An aetheist because I don't really believe in God?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DigitalCrash

So... where does that put me? An aetheist because I don't really believe in God?

---

agnostic maybe?

huh... didn't know there was such word... hehe... well then yes I am agnostic... :D

To shizznigg--sorry, I think I was trying to make the point that some atheists are more open-minded than others and are available for some degree of "headway."

To DigitalCrash--I'm thinking you're more of an agnostic than an atheist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bhekti

If God does not exist, how can rules (either thought or felt) function?

"If God does not exist, everything is permitted" including murder (of any forms, at any levels), theft (of any degrees), betrayals, etc. And, those things would happen at the very beginning of the history of mankind that it would take an illogical effort for the logic to accept the fact that human race have managed to survive this far.

If God did not exist, the history of mankind would not even survive a day. If God did not exist, every actions that we now call "evil" would be justified. There would be no faults, wrongs; everything would be right, good.

The reason why today we still witness people doing evil is because they don't admit the presence of God, or if they admit it (such as religious people), they openly reject him, preferring their own desires.

---

Here's what I don't get... if God is just... why does he have to punish those that aren't? None of us chose to be born in this family, in this life... and our minds are something that are created through experience. Sometimes I just think... and think... and I realize we never truly chose to like what we like, it simply just happens. When I was younger I had this bird and I loved it... it died 8 days later but those were some of the best days of my life, but because of that event... birds have become my favorite animals. It sounds like a choice but it kind of isn't, if I was in another body, with another mind and another life... would I still like birds? well that depends on the life you know... the experience. On the other hand... if you lived through exactly, but I mean exactly the same thing I went through when I was younger, with exactly the same thoughts and ideas... I think you would like birds. It's something I thought about, and since its not our fault that we like what we like and we hate what we hate... then its not a murderers fault that they're killing others, its simply the way things are and if God is just... then he can't punish him over something the poor man couldn't control.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DigitalCrash

Here's what I don't get... if God is just... why does he have to punish those that aren't? None of us chose to be born in this family, in this life... and our minds are something that are created through experience. Sometimes I just think... and think... and I realize we never truly chose to like what we like, it simply just happens. When I was younger I had this bird and I loved it... it died 8 days later but those were some of the best days of my life, but because of that event... birds have become my favorite animals. It sounds like a choice but it kind of isn't, if I was in another body, with another mind and another life... would I still like birds? well that depends on the life you know... the experience. On the other hand... if you lived through exactly, but I mean exactly the same thing I went through when I was younger, with exactly the same thoughts and ideas... I think you would like birds. It's something I thought about, and since its not our fault that we like what we like and we hate what we hate... then its not a murderers fault that they're killing others, its simply the way things are and if God is just... then he can't punish him over something the poor man couldn't control.

---

First of all, Digital, I love your signature.
As to what you ask, we must not blame our faults on our difficulties. I have never circumstantially had an easy day in my life thus far, yet I feel remorse for every sin I have ever committed - even in failing to do what would have accomplished absolute Good. I am surrounded, though, by people that give no thought to ethics, who claim they hardly have ever known hardship, and, even at the best of times, treat others like worthless dirt to walk over and hurt as they run to fill themselves with heartless luxuries. They have the same freedom of will that you and I have, but do you not grieve even for those that you are not at fault for the suffering of? I think that you do - otherwise, why would you spend so much of your heart struggling for an answer to others' sufferings?

No one is born a pedophile - that's a sinner's chosen obsession, resulting from a carrying on of avoidance of proper cultivation. No one has the inclination to be a faithful spouse because of mere circumstance, but because of a chosen cooperation with Graces from GOD, whether with perfect or imperfect awareness at some points along the way filled with trials and exercises.

Saint Francis of Assissi was the son of a godless man who encouraged his son to carry on in his juvenile delinquency, as he led his peers in rebellious teenage trouble-making. Then one day, while still rather young and popular, the lad's heart changed, and he decided to become a Catholic Christian. He was threatened by his father with rejection if he didn't reject his new Christian Life, but he chose GOD over the father he had never wanted to lose the acceptance of. All that had seemed a place of priviledge to Francis, he now saw nothing in, while all the Good he had previously had every motive to ignore, was now his one occupation.

A person may kill, undoubtedly, for a different reason than another, but murder is still murder - because of the motive. No one has a murderous motive due to mere background - because one's choice for or against a targetted disposition or attitude will remain a strong motivation against the tide. I know of some people that are exceptionally cheerful and gentle despite the odds seeming against them comprehending such good qualities. How is this? Because GOD has assigned virtues to our nature - but we choose what we shall come to: whether we cooperate with the CREATOR so that we solidify these qualities within ourselves like pottery being set in the kiln, or drift ever more and more away from our original GOD-given nature.

Ahem--you should know that I have sworn faithfulness to my significant other (and in the future, my spouse) without any divine intervention whatsoever.

As an atheist, not only don't I believe in god, but I don't believe in 'true faith' either. In my opinion, faith cannot be true if the object of that faith is non-existant. Faith is merely a more socially acceptable name for wishful thinking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grumbleguts

As an atheist, not only don't I believe in god, but I don't believe in 'true faith' either. In my opinion, faith cannot be true if the object of that faith is non-existant. Faith is merely a more socially acceptable name for wishful thinking.

---

You have faith that there is no such thing as faith or God? It can't concretely be proven either way, so in a sense you are wishfully thinking that there is no god.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mililalil

As to what you ask, we must not blame our faults on our difficulties. I have never circumstantially had an easy day in my life thus far, yet I feel remorse for every sin I have ever committed - even in failing to do what would have accomplished absolute Good. I am surrounded, though, by people that give no thought to ethics, who claim they hardly have ever known hardship, and, even at the best of times, treat others like worthless dirt to walk over and hurt as they run to fill themselves with heartless luxuries. They have the same freedom of will that you and I have, but do you not grieve even for those that you are not at fault for the suffering of? I think that you do - otherwise, why would you spend so much of your heart struggling for an answer to others' sufferings?

---

This is awful lot of generalisation. Believing in a deity does not necessarily mean one will lead a 'good' life. Nor does one need to believe in a divine being to lead a moral life. There are many people who are atheists or, even though they believe in God, who do not actively practise any religion. If it makes it easier for one to lead a moral life in the light of religious teachings, that is perfectly fine but to assume that without those teachings one will automatically be led astray is a biased opinion in my eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mililalil XXIV

A person may kill, undoubtedly, for a different reason than another, but murder is still murder - because of the motive. No one has a murderous motive due to mere background - because one's choice for or against a targetted disposition or attitude will remain a strong motivation against the tide. I know of some people that are exceptionally cheerful and gentle despite the odds seeming against them comprehending such good qualities. How is this? Because GOD has assigned virtues to our nature - but we choose what we shall come to: whether we cooperate with the CREATOR so that we solidify these qualities within ourselves like pottery being set in the kiln, or drift ever more and more away from our original GOD-given nature.

---

This is interesting. If we do good things, it is because God has assigned certain virtues to us and if we don't, it is because we choose to do so? Why does God assign 'not-so- pleasant' virtues to some of us then? Like jealousy or greed? Or why does God create some of us weak enough to give in the temptation?

You guys seem to be neglecting the devils influence on the situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mililalil XXIV

First of all, Digital, I love your signature.
As to what you ask, we must not blame our faults on our difficulties. I have never circumstantially had an easy day in my life thus far, yet I feel remorse for every sin I have ever committed - even in failing to do what would have accomplished absolute Good. I am surrounded, though, by people that give no thought to ethics, who claim they hardly have ever known hardship, and, even at the best of times, treat others like worthless dirt to walk over and hurt as they run to fill themselves with heartless luxuries. They have the same freedom of will that you and I have, but do you not grieve even for those that you are not at fault for the suffering of? I think that you do - otherwise, why would you spend so much of your heart struggling for an answer to others' sufferings?

---

Not all aetheist are like that. You see part of me doesn't believe in God, is skeptic about it (and I choose when to believe in him), it's kind of like a Jekyll and Hyde thing without the evil vs good in it. Anyhow... assuming God doesn't exist, then there would be no right or wrong, which means anything is possible, so because of that, I could just kill anyone I want right? so, why do I choose not to? It's simple, because, even though I don't believe in God (a part of me), life is life, it ends up being random events without him, it's short, and life is life, and you only get one of it, I don't kill because there is a God, the reason I don't kill is because even though I can do whatever I want, I understand that there are other people around and quite frankly, this being a one-time experience, I don't want to take that away from anyone. In order to have such a belief, do I have to believe in a God? No, and this is the reason why most aetheist don't kill, they want to give everyone a chance to live and enjoy the wonders of life. Believing in God simply adds more motive to this, but quite frankly... I don't want to kill because there is a God, because that just feels too selfish, I don't want to kill simply because I want to give others a chance, and that is, in my opinion, a much better reason for not killing. So taking this into though, does that mean aetheists are evil or bad? No, they aren't, they deserve to choose the path they want (even if it is just "given" to them, by, from my not-believing-in-God side, life)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mililalil XXIV

No one is born a pedophile - that's a sinner's chosen obsession, resulting from a carrying on of avoidance of proper cultivation. No one has the inclination to be a faithful spouse because of mere circumstance, but because of a chosen cooperation with Graces from GOD, whether with perfect or imperfect awareness at some points along the way filled with trials and exercises.

Saint Francis of Assissi was the son of a godless man who encouraged his son to carry on in his juvenile delinquency, as he led his peers in rebellious teenage trouble-making. Then one day, while still rather young and popular, the lad's heart changed, and he decided to become a Catholic Christian. He was threatened by his father with rejection if he didn't reject his new Christian Life, but he chose GOD over the father he had never wanted to lose the acceptance of. All that had seemed a place of priviledge to Francis, he now saw nothing in, while all the Good he had previously had every motive to ignore, was now his one occupation.

---

So, he just had a change of heart just like that? Magically? I find that impossible... nobody has change of heart for over no reason at all. That would mean that one day he was "I believe in no God" and the next he just magically changed and became "I believe in God", if that was the case, there had to be doubt about what he wanted somewhere in his life. Assuming there's a God, God set out the rules of this world, and psychology is one of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mililalil XXIV

A person may kill, undoubtedly, for a different reason than another, but murder is still murder - because of the motive. No one has a murderous motive due to mere background - because one's choice for or against a targetted disposition or attitude will remain a strong motivation against the tide. I know of some people that are exceptionally cheerful and gentle despite the odds seeming against them comprehending such good qualities. How is this? Because GOD has assigned virtues to our nature - but we choose what we shall come to: whether we cooperate with the CREATOR so that we solidify these qualities within ourselves like pottery being set in the kiln, or drift ever more and more away from our original GOD-given nature.

---

Well, how do you know that? Have you ever murdered before? I mean... a murderer murders for a reason, always, and once again... as a child... if they're mistreated, well, does a child really have such experience in life, if as a child they were taught that killing was good, then it's not their fault. Ok, if that was the case, then it'd be similar to your previous story, but as a child who is mistreated and is taught that killing was good, there's a pretty slim chance that they'll have such a change of heart, I mean, putting myself in their shoes, that's pretty tough unless something in life sparks my mind and gives me knowledge of morals. So in other words, God gives us virtues and its our decision to follow or deny them, but life, depending on the way it treats us, motivates us to either follow or deny them, but is it really our fault if we can't handle such pressure. I mean, putting myself in their shoes if I think really deeply, something awful must've happened to get them to start killing, don't you think? Decisions don't just pop out of no where.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RobinHood3000

I'm an atheist, I'll say right now. I'll also say that I don't swear, drink, or smoke, and have sworn a personal vow of chastity until I am married. I have no criminal record whatsoever, and am near the top of my class at school. I was born by my mother--I didn't emerge from a smoking hole in the ground. No late-night sex rituals, no sacrificing small animals...

---

Uhm... don't take offence....but since you are an atheist (and, here, for politeness sake, I am trying to adjust myself to your conviction), does it make any difference if you are not as you are?

I mean, you can't be serious with that personal description of yours, can you? Coz, what for? Is there any value in it? What is value anyway? there is no God...

Quote:

---

Prejudice is an ugly thing, bhekti

---

So? There is no God, remember? you say it's ugly, my companion here says it's not ugly, another companion of mine over there says it's necessary, .....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bhekti

Uhm... don't take offence....but since you are an atheist (and, here, for politeness sake, I am trying to adjust myself to your conviction), does it make any difference if you are not as you are?

I mean, you can't be serious with that personal description of yours, can you? Coz, what for? Is there any value in it? What is value anyway? there is no God...



So? There is no God, remember? you say it's ugly, my companion here says it's not ugly, another companion of mine over there says it's necessary, .....

---

He is what he is, and he does what he believes is right. Prejudice being an ugly thing for him is an opinion. You have to remember though that peer pressure and stuff like that plays an important role in your beliefs, there may be no God, but because so many people frown upon prejudice, they teach their kids to frown upon it to, does it make it right? no, does it make it wrong? no, does it make it liked? no. Also, people fear problems and will try to avoid them as much as they can, thus most learn to respect others, making prejudice be more frowned upon. So basically, what happens is that, in this way, morals are created without there being a God.

Another thing I would like to add about morals, according to your term of morals, God created them, like laws that we should follow. What's more important though, the fact that he exists, or the fact that we believe in him? As long as we believe in him, the morals are still there, and even if we don't, there will still be the "preferred" morals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bhekti

Uhm... don't take offence....but since you are an atheist (and, here, for politeness sake, I am trying to adjust myself to your conviction), does it make any difference if you are not as you are?

I mean, you can't be serious with that personal description of yours, can you? Coz, what for? Is there any value in it? What is value anyway? there is no God...

So? There is no God, remember? you say it's ugly, my companion here says it's not ugly, another companion of mine over there says it's necessary, .....

---

Aye, there is value in it. I may not believe in a God, but I believe in goodness to others. My creed in life, since it obviously is not to serve God, is

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by My Mission Statement

To do my best to bring about the optimal balance of my health/happiness/well-being and the health/happiness/well-being of others.

---

Therefore, the reason why I do not drink, smoke, have wanton orgies, etc., is because such actions are detrimental to my well-being and the well-being of those around me.

Did you just tell me that my beliefs are ludicrous, worthless, and empty, then ask me not to take offense?

Personally, I think that it is somewhat selfish (albeit natural) for a person to think that there is no purpose to life if there's no afterlife to work for. Regardless of what personal concern (or ego, depending on whom you ask) would tell us, the world continues beyond our passing. It is thusly that I hope to leave an impression--by seeking make the lives of those around me better and more pleasant. One does not have to believe in a god to understand the concepts of pleasure and pain, happiness and misery.

In addition, it is based on this that I can say that prejudice is an ugly thing--it attempts to portray me and those like me as less of a person because of what I believe. To me, it equates to you sacrificing my contentment for your personal self-satisfaction at having struck a blow against us heathens. Your actions thus go against my beliefs as my existence apparently goes against yours.