The Visual Arts: Exploring the History of "Fine Art" and Beyond

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Originally posted by Corona
What do you guys think about Grunewald? I have recently been approaching to his paintings and I must say he's quite impressive.

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Thanks for posting. I didn't know his art.

An intriguing painting of the Isenheim Altarpiece.



"Isenheim Altarpiece - Concert of Angels and Nativity"

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._Isenheim2.jpg



And details. I am wondering who is the lady with a crown. :ihih:


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...newald_038.jpg



God as Emperor?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...newald_039.jpg


Like Charles I, Founder of the Holy Roman Empire.

Albrecht Dürer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ch...e-by-Durer.jpg




In the Bibliothèque Nationale de France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ch...harlemagne.jpg


The Resurrection

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...-_WGA10755.jpg


It reminds me about Michelangelo's Last Judgement

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/i...ent-christ-wga



A few details from Temptation of Saint Anthony


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...%2C_detail.jpg


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...-_WGA10770.jpg

Unfortunately, the "Ignore" function does not work if one views the thread without logging in. :incazzato:

Great work, stlukesguild. Michelangelo, :nod: It seems that God, in reaching out to touch Adam, is inside a human brain.

For all your good work, you get ... an occultist stalker, and someone who knows nothing about art but views the whole world through the prism of feminist post-Marxism or some such BS, evidently surreally oblivious to the fact that viewing the world through her chosen ism-prism is as dumb as viewing it through the ism-prism of Old Dead White Men ... her antipathy to the latter no doubt inspiring her tantrum at my invocation of Shakespeare.

Anyway, good luck. I know a lot about art too, having both made it and written extensively about it. But post here?

No. This place has the usual Internet disease. Message boards attract anonymous abusers.

I'm sorry, St. Luke. Allow me to be real. I hate joining the parade without really enjoying the revelry. Considering all the artists that have influenced you, I expect better. Your artworks are not really that impressive. They are forgettable. Again, I apologize for my honesty.

Michelangelo is a virtually unrivaled figure in the history of painting... one of the top nominees for the title of "The Greatest Artist Ever" if we could confer such a title. I have absolutely no illusions of comparing my work with that of Michelangelo or any of the masters from art history that I have posted.

I'm sorry you find my work unimpressive and forgettable... but you negative opinion is not really something that I will likely lose sleep over.

What do you guys think about Grunewald? I have recently been approaching to his paintings and I must say he's quite impressive.

Matthias Grünewald is an incredible painter. The Eisenheim Altarpiece is an incredible work of early German Expressionism. There are many links between Grünewald's work and Bosch's painting of the Temptation of St. Anthony. Grünewald's painting was created for the Monastery of St. Anthony in Isenheim near Colmar, which specialized in hospital work. The Antonine monks of the monastery were noted for their care of plague sufferers as well as their treatment of skin diseases, such as ergotism. The image of the crucified Christ is pitted with open wounds and plague-like sores, his flesh grown gangrenous, showing patients that Jesus understood and shared their afflictions and their sufferings.

Yeah, A third-world painter named Roland Ventura sold the painting below for 1.1 million dollars at Sotheby's:


Attachment 8603


Even before he went international, I had already followed his art exhibits. Not bad for someone dumb in arts ha? Now compare your works to his. I see more classical influences in his works than in yours that are supposedly influenced by European masters. Influenced my foot!

You boast like you're really a well-known artist. Sorry for bursting your fantasy bubble.

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Originally posted by stlukesguild
Matthias Grünewald is an incredible painter. The Eisenheim Altarpiece is an incredible work of early German Expressionism. There are many links between Grünewald's work and Bosch's painting of the Temptation of St. Anthony. Grünewald's painting was created for the Monastery of St. Anthony in Isenheim near Colmar, which specialized in hospital work. The Antonine monks of the monastery were noted for their care of plague sufferers as well as their treatment of skin diseases, such as ergotism. The image of the crucified Christ is pitted with open wounds and plague-like sores, his flesh grown gangrenous, showing patients that Jesus understood and shared their afflictions and their sufferings.

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I agree but why did you say that it is a work of early Expressionism. I would never make that association. :confused5:

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The image of the crucified Christ is pitted with open wounds and plague-like sores, his flesh grown gangrenous, showing patients that Jesus understood and shared their afflictions and their sufferings.

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I would strongly argue that but I will keep for myself what I think. :lol:

BTW, you have acknowledged my humble presence here by noticing that I haven't been posting for weeks but you have forgotten to acknowledge a few members who have disappeared but have showed up immediately.......... as soon as I made a post. :ihih:

Thanks to ftil for the links!
I agree on the parallel between Bosch and Grunewald, I'm quite interested in Bosch, as wells; the latter is unparalled when it comes to density of simbolism and majesty. I cannot think of many works denser than his trypthics, and I believe his artworks to be some of the most complex in the western art.
As I'm beginning to study Michelangelo's works I'm slowly finding out the magnitude of his greatness; one could argue there have been some painters on the same tier as him, some more suggestive, some other more human, but noone ever came close to him in epicness.

Michelangelo is the guy. Even his poetry is good. The the Sistine may be "it". What justify all humankind.

Now, it is funny you talk about Michelangelo and that you liked comic books, because I cannot imagine something more legitimate to claim his influence than the godlike representations of humans that build Superman, Batman, etc. And like the Sistine, they have strong narrative elements usuing visual arts. A bit like medieval imaginery in churches was meant to complement the oral intervation of the priests (or maybe, to be the completed by it), since most people could not read, but could follow the stories with the images.

Sistine has everything, from any point of view, the artist, the history of creation, the theme, the easter eggs spreads by the never conformist michelangelo, the multiple meanings, the political power, the latter history... and most people will think only about adam and god, not imagining it basically rebuilds the creation of the entire universe.

First time i was teaching in class, when i show a slide of Sistine for the first time, a lighting bolt just strucks. So, Micheangelo is the only rational argument for God.

Yeah, I've not been within his poetry a lot, but from what I've read I can confirm he was pretty much a great artist in every artistic field, not to mention he's my favourite sculptor, after Bernini. As for the Sistine I've not experienced a sightseeing to it so I can't tell HOW MUCH it's epic: everyone said it's a whole different experience from everything else.
I can tell Raffaello Sanzio's vision may be preferable as it still seems even "purer" but my opinion is that appreciating his style is more difficult for modern viewers: I'm not to generalize neither I want to simplify the concept of beauty, but I guess that we're not accostumed to traditional beauty, we need to "refine" our tastes to fully get some artists. That, of course, can be said about every great artist worth the time!
In Michelangelo's case, however, it's easier as he was "epic" in every sense: we can both feel the anxiety for deity, the greatness of human nature and foresee the despair, the angst of nothingness, the perfection of the body and the decay of the meat, like in his Last Judgment, one of the monumental pieces of art.

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Originally Posted by JCamilo

First time i was teaching in class, when i show a slide of Sistine for the first time, a lighting bolt just strucks. So, Micheangelo is the only rational argument for God.

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I bet that freaked you out a bit. :biggrin5:

Yeah, A third-world painter named Roland Ventura sold the painting below for 1.1 million dollars at Sotheby's:

Most intelligent individuals... especially those who model themselves as pseudo-Marxists... understand that money is no measure of artistic measure, otherwise J.K. Rowling would be the unchallenged greatest living writer. This little idiot painter, for example...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...minjun-008.jpg

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...rt_672421n.jpg

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...yue_minjun.jpg

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...ons_2006-1.jpg

... recently saw one of his paintings sell for $4.47 Million US.

Even before he went international, I had already followed his art exhibits. Not bad for someone dumb in arts ha? Now compare your works to his. I see more classical influences in his works than in yours that are supposedly influenced by European masters. Influenced my foot!

Not many "classical" references that I recognize... as if references were the measure of art. Almost all artists build upon earlier artists. It appears to me that Mr. Ventura is building far more on popular culture and American Pop Art... undoubtedly newly arrived in the third world 15 years after the fact:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8213/8...e9528c94_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8221/8...9e2f4024_m.jpg

Honestly, he doesn't do much of anything for me. He's not bad, but neither is he great. And he most certainly will not earn any serious place in the history of art. That you like him is neither here nor there. You have also expressed an admiration for crap art like this:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8370/8...29cc8beb_m.jpg

and mediocre twaddle such as this...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...34_307004m.jpg

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...o/th_c1369.jpg

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...o/th_c1389.jpg

You boast like you're really a well-known artist. Sorry for bursting your fantasy bubble.

Where have I boasted? To suggest that I have been influenced by this or that artist is not to suggest that I see myself as a peer or equal... its not to make a value judgment at all. As I already stated, I have no illusions of comparing my work to Michelangelo or any of the artists I have posted... all of whom have clearly earned their places in art history.

Again, I'm sorry you don't like my work, but I'll try not to be too depressed over the fact.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

and mediocre twaddle such as this...



http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...o/th_c1369.jpg

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...o/th_c1389.jpg

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Oh, come on. You should get used to criticism. There always will be people who will criticize us……no matter what.


BTW, I didn’t know Fernando Amorsolo y Cueto. You may say “mediocre twaddle".

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Fernando Amorsolo y Cueto (May 30, 1892 – April 24, 1972) is one of the most important artists in the history of painting in the Philippines.[1] Amorsolo was a portraitist and painter of rural Philippine landscapes. He is popularly known for his craftsmanship and mastery in the use of light. Born in Paco, Manila, he earned a degree from the Liceo de Manila Art School in 1909
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Amorsolo

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I don’t want to sound sarcastic but you are not in Wikipedia that says that you are the most important in the history of American art. Get over it…….and keep posting. :wink5:

I agree but why did you say that it is a work of early Expressionism. I would never make that association.

Expressionism distorts forms and colors for expressive purposes. Romanesque and Gothic art, Rogier van der Weyden, Mannerism, Grünewald, etc... are generally seen as falling within the Expressionist strain... and all were influential upon later Expressionists whether we are speaking of Van Gogh, Edvard Munch, Egon Schiele, the German Expressionists of Die Brücke, Der Blaue Reiter, the Neue Sachlichkeit, or even other European Modernist "Expressionists" such as Georges Rouault, Chaim Soutine, and even Francis Bacon.

Many Modernists such as Emil Nolde...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...ixion-1912.jpg

and Max Beckmann...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8188/8...578d0ca6_n.jpg

... openly admitted to building upon Grünewald for the simple reason that his portrayal of the Crucifixion was among the most powerfully expressive of the element of suffering... something that many of the German artists of the early 20th century knew intimately as a result of their experiences in the trenches of WWI followed by the political chaos, instability, and grinding poverty following the war.

These same artists were also inspired by the raw... even crude images of Christ found in medieval wood carvings and altarpieces:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...io/th_1851.jpg

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...11187306_p.jpg

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...A110249-01.jpg

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...ulpture_hi.jpg

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...dz59o1_500.jpg

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/...dpp2o1_500.jpg

Sorry, looks like I'm behind by a couple days.

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Originally Posted by mona amon

I just cannot help thinking of this picture every time I read Exodus 33:23 "And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts:" :D

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Originally Posted by JCamilo

Michelangelo is the guy. Even his poetry is good. The the Sistine may be "it". What justify all humankind....

...First time i was teaching in class, when i show a slide of Sistine for the first time, a lighting bolt just strucks. So, Micheangelo is the only rational argument for God.

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“Creation of the Sun and Moon”
The etymology of “mooning” begins with Michelangelo

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...elEnvelope.jpg

^From my stamp collection; a special issue envelope I picked up in Rome, commemorating the restoration of the Sistine Chapel.

He also dabbled in Architecture. Examples of Michelangelo’s architectural contributions include Saint Peters Basilica, Laurentian Library, Capitoline Hill, Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore, Medici Chapel

Piazza del Campidoglio and Palazzo del Senatore 1988:

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...20-R02-175.jpg

Saint Peters Basillica (1988):


http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...20-R02-172.jpg

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

I agree but why did you say that it is a work of early Expressionism. I would never make that association.

Expressionism distorts forms and colors for expressive purposes. Romanesque and Gothic art, Rogier van der Weyden, Mannerism, Grünewald, etc... are generally seen as falling within the Expressionist strain... and all were influential upon later Expressionists whether we are speaking of Van Gogh, Edvard Munch, Egon Schiele, the German Expressionists of Die Brücke, Der Blaue Reiter, the Neue Sachlichkeit, or even other European Modernist "Expressionists" such as Georges Rouault, Chaim Soutine, and even Francis Bacon.

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Thanks for your response. I know that expressionism distorts forms and colors but I would never compare Grunewald’s paintings with Expressionists as I looked at his paintings.
El Greco is regarded as a precursor of Expressionism.

Yeah, El Greco was as relevant for expressionism as he was for the likes of Picasso.
I have to admit I've not been through El Greco's work a lot, so far, but what's really amazing about his artworks is that he was one of the first painters to represent spiritual "tension", to "make visible what's not visible".
So in a way an ideal comparison with the Expressionist painters is far from inadequate, if we obviously keep the context aside.