The Christian Hell

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Originally Posted by skasian

Back to the subject of The Christian Hell, let me give Thomas Hobbes's perspectives in Christian Hell,written in Leviathan which equals to my own views.

"The Torments of Hell are expressed sometimes by 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' as Mat 8.12..'where the worm dyeth not and the fire is not quenched'..sometimes by 'shame and contemp' Dan 12.2..'some to shame and everlasting contempt'..may be called an Everlasting Death prepared for the wicked which is the Second Death."

"The joyes of Life Eternall are in Scripture comprehended all under the name of Salvation, or being saved. To be saved, is to be secured either respectively against speciall Evills or absolutely against all Evill comprehending Want, Sicknesse and Death itself."

"Of what is Necessary for a Mans reception into the Kingdom of Heaven: All that is Necessary to Salvation is contained in two Vertues, Faith in Christ and Obedience to Laws"

I see that some people indeed are against and angered by the aspect that people who do know accept Jesus Christ as their God and Saviour will end up in Christian Hell, but that is because it is the only truth in Christianity, not because we as Christians say, think or want so, but because our God said so, and Hobbes can justify so.

There is actually a whole section dedicated to the subject of Christian hell, called The Kingdom of Darknesse, if you are interested in Christian Hell, then I recommend Leviathan.

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"obbey, obbey, obbey, OBBEY, INSECT!"
it isnt really a shock that the catholic church ruled the world for 16 or so centuries, is it.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...jhfkhfkjdf.jpg
william blake> thomas hobbes :thumbs_up

just for humour purposes, here goes a great quote i got from wikipedia, but dont laugh, or youll go to hell:
"In 1532, Thomas Harding, who with his wife, had been accused of heresy, was brought before the Bishop of Lincoln, and condemned for denying the real presence in the Sacrament. He was then chained to a stake, erected for the purpose, at Chesham in the Dell, near Botely; and when they had set fire to the fagots, one of the spectators dashed out his brains with a billet. The priests told the people that whoever brought fagots to burn heretics would have an indulgence to commit sins for forty days."

and this also, never fails to bring a smile to my face:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig

go christianity!

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Originally Posted by weltanschauung

go christianity!

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Two classic comedic pieces!

Cheers.

I look forward to having a beer together in hell.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Two classic comedic pieces!

Cheers.

I look forward to having a beer together in hell.

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amen!

At last, some actual religious texts in the religious texts forum. And such inspiring ones! Thanks, welt!

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Originally Posted by dzebra

Here's something from Revelation that talks about God being a big, angry looking, white, hairy guy.

"And standing in the middle of the lampstands was someone like the Son of Man. He was wearing a long robe with a gold sash across his chest. His head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow. And his eyes were like flames of fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and his voice thundered like mighty ocean waves. He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp two-edged sword came from his mouth. And his face was like the sun in all its brilliance. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead"

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Read closely. I said he was not "huge angry bearded guy" and the extract doesnt say God was huge in any comparison, it doesnt say He was bearded although he has white hair, and it doesnt say that He was angry although His PRESENCE is almighty and frightful. Get the difference?;)

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Originally Posted by weltanschauung

i dont think god "likes" or "dislikes" anything. your god is a ridiculous frankenstein plagiarism of every other pagan symbol that existed before your christ "came", and by that i mean "before the structure of the church along the middle ages invented and organized this whole set of lies that live up to this day." and i dont know why every christian treats everyone else that isnt christian like poor ignorant mongoloids, who have never read the bible. yes, i read the book of revelations, which btw is an open pagan reference to the 22 cards of the tarot. the whole bible itself is a huge plagarism of the book of enoch, since christianity is founded over lies and deception and plagery.
that being said, i would also like to add that your (christians) conception of hell is childish and hilarious. hell obviously isnt a place, but a state of mind, and it's funny how christians use that to scare everyone, "do this, do that or youll go to hell forever har har." you've all been living in hell since birth and you seem to be having quite the good time. your god's punishments and anger dont scare me at all.

hugs and kisses :)

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It seems your assumption of God not "liking" and "disliking" is wrong. God loves His Children and does not like the wrongdoers that are against Him.

And please, do not disrespect other people's religion and God, I doubt you will like if someone swore about your mother or father. Think about what you are saying before you insult others and their belief.

If you dont believe in hell and Christian belief, I dont care. I dont mind what you believe in. But I do mind what you say about what you dont believe in. It is rude and childish yourself in every way.

Have a nice day with less insulting and with more respect:)

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

No, that's exactly what a sceptic isn't.

A sceptic asks questions and checks evidence to find answers. Belief has nothing to do with it.

Where on earth do you get these strange ideas?



Quite right.

But the only people I ever meet who don't accept the theory of evolution as being correct are fundamental christians. I'm guessing you accept it, however, so that's a good start.



Again, this is a horrendously bad error.

Since when don't atheists accepts the ToE? I know hundreds of atheists and not one of them seriously doubts it.

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Skeptical- disbelieving: denying or questioning the tenets of especially a religion; "a skeptical approach to the nature of miracles"
incredulity: doubt about the truth of something

My idea is right. Skeptic becomes believers when they search for evidence and accepts an aspect to be true.

It is true that I dont completely disagree with evolution. I accept that nature revolves around with adaptation, however I do not believe in speciation, the vital aspect that supports that we derive from apes and so on.

And no, it seems the hundreds atheists you know is an insufficient sample. People and non religious people and classmates that I know do not believe in evolution, or the idea that we derive from apes although they may believe in a small aspect like me. Even with these one person existing in the world, they make your assumptions very invalid.

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Originally Posted by weltanschauung

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Your quote from Blake... I wished to share a couple of other quotes by him. I find them to be quite good.

"The tree which moves some to tears of joy is in the eyes of others only a green thing that stands in the way. Some see nature all ridicule and deformity... and some scarce see nature at all. But to the eyes of the man of imagination, nature is imagination itself. "

"If a thing loves, it is infinite."

"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."

"He whose face gives no light, shall never become a star."

"I am in you and you in me, mutual in divine love."

"I have no name: I am but two days old. What shall I call thee? I happy am, Joy is my name. Sweet joy befall thee!"

"Where mercy, love, and pity dwell, there God is dwelling too."

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Originally Posted by skasian

It seems your assumption of God not "liking" and "disliking" is wrong. God loves His Children and does not like the wrongdoers that are against Him.

And please, do not disrespect other people's religion and God, I doubt you will like if someone swore about your mother or father. Think about what you are saying before you insult others and their belief.

If you dont believe in hell and Christian belief, I dont care. I dont mind what you believe in. But I do mind what you say about what you dont believe in. It is rude and childish yourself in every way.

Have a nice day with less insulting and with more respect:)

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The Slavoj Zizek article I read the other day seems to be full of useful quotes:

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I always have this uncanny association that this is dangerously close to how we treat our children: the idea that we should respect them, even when we know that what they believe is not true. We should not destroy their illusions. No, I think that others deserve better - not to be treated like children.

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Originally Posted by weltanschauung

and this also, never fails to bring a smile to my face:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig

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it brings a scared smile to my face, most of those people live very close to me.

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Originally Posted by skasian

And please, do not disrespect other people's religion and God, I doubt you will like if someone swore about your mother or father.

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I have to admit I see nothing but irony here.

Someone makes fun of your religion and it's disrespectful and hurtful, but telling someone repeatedly that they will burn forever isn't. Didn't Jesus say something about reaping what we sow?

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Originally Posted by skasian

Skeptical- disbelieving: denying or questioning the tenets of especially a religion; "a skeptical approach to the nature of miracles"
incredulity: doubt about the truth of something

My idea is right. Skeptic becomes believers when they search for evidence and accepts an aspect to be true.

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Note the bolding I made.

Sceptics question.

And please do note that there are far better ways to construct an argument than living in a dictionary.

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Originally Posted by skasian

It is true that I dont completely disagree with evolution. I accept that nature revolves around with adaptation, however I do not believe in speciation, the vital aspect that supports that we derive from apes and so on.

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Thanks for the clarification.

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Originally Posted by skasian

And no, it seems the hundreds atheists you know is an insufficient sample.

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How many do you know?

Which atheist boards would you like to put the question at? James Randi? Dawkins? IIDB? Skeptical Community? Skeptics' Forum? Skepchick? Bad Astronomy?

If you intend to argue this point with me, you will be proved sorely wrong. I can absolutely guarantee you that there are no people who are materialist atheists* who don't accept that the Theory of Evolution is largely right.

I doubt you know many atheists and I strongly doubt that you've discussed religion and ToE with many, so I see no point in you arguing this, because you clearly have no idea what you're saying.

* Material atheists are the largest group of atheists and this enables psychic atheists and the likes of David Icke's lizard people to be left out as their opinions are irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by skasian

People and non religious people and classmates that I know do not believe in evolution, or the idea that we derive from apes although they may believe in a small aspect like me. Even with these one person existing in the world, they make your assumptions very invalid.

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What assumptions? I know for a fact that many christians don't accept ToE, but I have also shown you that the majority of christians do accept it, because the RCC officially accepts it as correct and they are the majority of christians.

As it happens, the numbers of believers are meaningless anyway - atheism is a minority sport internationally.

You're quite welcome to think the ToE is wrong, but in terms of believability, I'm going to stick with scientists who have actually studied the subject and presented hard evidence rather than a 2000 year old book or a pastor who couldn't set fire to a Bunsen burner.

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Originally Posted by skasian

It is true that I dont completely disagree with evolution. I accept that nature revolves around with adaptation, however I do not believe in speciation, the vital aspect that supports that we derive from apes and so on.

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evolution isnt religion. you cant pick and choose which parts fit in with your beliefs

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Two classic comedic pieces!

Cheers.

I look forward to having a beer together in hell.

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LOL, it could turn out real Hell for you though instead of cold beer. I have a question for you, you are aware of history and what went and goes on in the world, all the injustices committed against defenseless people. Far too many occassions, people got away with horrendous crimes they committed against others. Wouldn't it be sensible for criminals of these calibre to face justice and to account for their deeds? You do believe in Justice don't you? giving each person their dues? That is where Hell comes in :D


I disagree with some of the people in here who claim One's sins are forgiven by virtue of accepting Jesus as their saviour. I am not a christian but do understand that christianity teaches "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20 This makes more sense than the claim of Jesus dying for some criminal's sins. Justice needs to prevail and God(the one who created jesus and the rest) being just, the saviour claim has no legs to stand on.

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Originally Posted by West

LOL, it could turn out real Hell for you though instead of cold beer. I have a question for you, you are aware of history and what went and goes on in the world, all the injustices committed against defenseless people. Far too many occassions, people got away with horrendous crimes they committed against others. Wouldn't it be sensible for criminals of these calibre to face justice and to account for their deeds? You do believe in Justice don't you? giving each person their dues? That is where Hell comes in :D

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Sure, it's where the desire came from which led to creation of the myth. For peasants and slaves under the thumb of the few, eternal evening up was a great sales pitch.

I don't believe that applies now, however, and a couple of posters in this thread are living proof of it. For some reason, the idea that they are the chosen of their god, while everyone else will burn, is attractive.

I just don't see why. If I were a theist, it would be a repulsive parody of god and I'd have to find a new church without that belief.

The world is a nasty place, and while it would be nice to think of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and many, many others forced to account for their sins, so monstrous were they, but it doesn't add up, in my book.

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Originally Posted by West

Justice needs to prevail and God(the one who created jesus and the rest) being just, the saviour claim has no legs to stand on.

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Well, that is the majority view in christianity. Seems a lot friendlier, but then again, maybe a vengeful and unfriendly god is what they're looking for.

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Originally Posted by blp

The Slavoj Zizek article I read the other day seems to be full of useful quotes:

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slavoj zizek is most excellent!