It begins at # 13 and goes on like Finnegans Wake.Quote:
Originally Posted by silence782
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It begins at # 13 and goes on like Finnegans Wake.Quote:
Originally Posted by silence782
My opinion on God is correct. Anyone whose views are identical to mine are also correct. All others are just lying or idiots. Don't feel less of me. Deep down inside you feel the same. :goof:
Okay, thanks for the heads up, unameable.
Where's the connection between God being omniscient and our free will?Quote:
Originally Posted by silence782
These two, say, concepts clearly can stand by themselves without interrupting one another. However, they also can be modified to interrupt one another.
True, we have free will (but there's always the question of how free (hence, ethics)). And, it is also true that God is omniscient. In my opinion, If a frame of mind can't put these two propositions in harmony with one another, there must be a fixed arrangement (be it conscious or unconscious, felt or not felt, faked or straight) of that frame of mind that, from the very outset, never permit that kind of harmony.
Your posts were simply masterful. You've put the concepts I've been thinking about in such eloquent terms, and yet, still kept your patience when dealing with illogical arguments. Well played.
Here's my take on the argument:
If God created everything, and knows what will, can, or ever could be, free will cannot exist without independent choice. But no one can be independent of god, because he created us to perform a task with we can neither change, nor deviate from. In fact, to belivers of an omnipotent god, only the illusion of free will can exist, not free will in the truest sense.
"Where's the connection between God being omniscient and our free will? "
can god be omniscient, but not omnipotent? Or omnipontent, but not omniscient? If he knew everything, but was unable to do everything, then, I could see hoe free will could exist. But, if he created me, and created all the choices I could make how is that free will? Being able to make a choice he didn't expect, one that I alone choce to make idependent of god's knolegde would be free will. Anything else is just running along the track he made for me.
Hmm... I got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by silence782
God created us with a purpose or design, I agree. But I can't agree with your opinon that says we can neither change or deviate from it. Just look at our condition now. We can even call it "bad" (well, many of us have been so used to it that they feel just alright with it). So it means we are capable to change or deviate from the purpose or design that God always wants us to fulfill.
There's the concept of sin, an expression of our independence. Our free will, I think, is expressed when we "kill" God. (And, we kill Him continuously in our life, don't we?). But it's only one example. Another example can be when we choose to keep the faith despite our lack of understanding.
Whatever we choose to do, God is there, omniscient and omnipotent still. We perform our free will, and God let it happen. From this, victims fall. God has promised to payback for those victims, and we.... we keep on performing our free will.
That's where the 'logical' arguments for God's existence always fall down. Believers want it all ways. They will not give an inch on the following statements:Quote:
Originally Posted by silence782
1. God created everything that exists.
2. God is omnipotent.
3. God is omniscient.
4. God gave us free will.
5. God loves all of us.
Qualify one or more of these statements and it may be possible to reconcile the idea of God with the world around us. Try to hold to them all rigidly and you fall down holes in logic all over the place. The only way to believe all of the above is therefore to rely on 'faith' and to deny the validity of logic (at least as it relates to God). This I find myself incapable of doing - I guess that's just the way God made me! :lol:
Besides, if we were made in the image of God, as is claimed, isn't it likely that the big fella is just as ****ed up as we are?
I assume you know the following Monty Python parody of "All things bright and beautiful"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe
All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings;
He made their brutish venom,
He made their horrid wings.
All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.
Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid;
Who made the spiky urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did.
All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul, and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.
Amen.
*nods* I've always dound it strange that a person can belive in two contradicting ideas at the same time. For example, "God is good." and yet he created evil. "God is love." Yet, he created Satan with full knoledge of what he would do, and loosed him upon us.
Oops, sorry for the bad spelling, but it was 3 AM when I wrote that last post...
Silence if that is your reason for not believing in God, then you aren't seeing the bigger picture.
Now I respect XM because he is a true Athiest, and often doesn't say anything without having carefully thought it out.
And it is not that your view is wrong, its just simply misguided.
Now, I don't know what God is thinking, and I can be mistaken. But I seen the reasons God created us, and arranged for our fall.
Satan was a perfect being, and in his beauty and perfection he loved himself more than the Lord. It because of that self love that he rebelled against God, with three quarters of heavens angels.
God thus created man, planning to fill the positions lost in heaven. Knowing full well that Satan would corrupt his creations.
But he let it happen anyways, because he had already planned it to.
Why? The host of heaven were as the bible says perfect. But Satan loved himself more than God, and so corrupted himself, as did the others.
Yet God created man, for the same reason he creates everything. Love.
And he gave man through his fall the freedom of choice.
Something the angels of heaven never had.
With that freedom of choice, a human who was no longer a perfect being and was not obligated to serve God, but serves him and seeks him out of love for his creator.
Those that choose God, or Christ, it say will inhabit the kingdoms of heaven of which Satan's hosts left vacant when htey were given the realm of Hell.
Those that lived for evil means, join Satans kingdom and become his own servants.
And those that never choosed, as the bible says. Will simply never be ressurected and thus cease to exist.
So, in hindview, God has allowed evil to exist to a certain point in time, so that his creations may choose to serve him, or reject him and be done with it.
And as for the evil in the world, God doesn't create evil, his creations create evil. Thus God is blameless.
Hope this helped to give you a more open minded opinion on the subject.
Thanks for reading.
Shizz.
P.s. I absolutely loved Read or Die.
"So often we are looking, that we hardly ever see."
"I can't see the trees, because the forest is in the way."
XM Don't forget, that we were perfect before we were corrupted.
And also don't forget that God is the ultimate excentric, because if he wasn't then he certainly wouldn't have created the entire universe. God simply creates for a few small reasons.
For his own enjoyment. God's an artist, poet, writer, philosopher, etc.
Hence we as his creations, made in his image also exude a need to create.
God wants to be love and accepted by his creations.
God wants to have a relationship with all of his creations. His love created them and he wants to be loved in return.
This is also a major fundamental of all human makeup, since the first thing we humans ever do, or do anything for really. Is acceptence and appreciation for what we do, regardless of who the acceptance is from.
We feel connections to thing we pursue. Like growing plants, or tending animals. You feel a connection to those things, and you want to see them prosper.
God also wants humans to prosper and enjoy life, in the same way.
He get his enjoyment, out of seeing our enjoyment.
We human exhibit sinful emotions.
Emotions we were never supposed to have. Yet we also have pure emotions, like wrath, or pure anger.
Both do not equate to hatred, they are both fierce and severe, but quick to dissapate. And it is only when we consciously hold those feelings longer, that hate starts to grow.
We also feel many different forms of love, family love, love of a friend, pure passion, and pure desire, affectionate love, and deep love.
Those again can be turned to feelings of envy, and hostility.
Once again I don't claim to know all the answers, but if you look deeply at human thought, and human behaviour you find some very odd quirks, that logically shouldn't have evolved with a creature.
Though I'm sure there is more than just one arguement for this, this is indeed my answer of what I know. And i'm quite sure there are other people out there that could indeed explain all of this better.
Still, thanks again, You actually take the time to read my post before you answer them, and it is greatly appreciated. :D
Shizz.
"Tell the world, tell em all, that Franco was here!"
An address, often not included.
:banana:
Odd quirks, hm? Of course human thought and behavior patterns don't fit evolution--humans only started deviating from evolutionary behavioral patterns when they started denying the presence of evolution.
I don't suppose you've ever read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn? I've mentioned it a couple times on the forums--just read it a few weeks ago, and I really enjoyed it. An eye-opener for me.