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Are you just up? I am owling again but I think I should go to bed now.
Alfred does not seem to me an easily excitable guy. I picture him as a hulking quiet manly man who does not express much of his feeling. I can imagine that he shots a gun at Joey quietly; throws a stern glance at Maggie; walks away to show he is the boss now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphire
Before I read everyone's comments I will quickly highlight what i found interesting in the last secion.
Inside Alfred there is this constant impulse of violence. This is not unlike many of Lawrence's characters who are associated with the modern world.Quote:
He nodded slightly. He seemed to be meditating as to what line of action he should take. He wanted to know the contents of the letter: he must know: and therefore he must ask me, for evidently his wife had taunted him. At the same time, no doubt, he would like to wreak untold vengeance on my unfortunate person. So he eyed me, and I eyed him, and neither of us spoke. He did not want to repeat his request to me. And yet I only looked at him, and considered.
Interesting that Alfred is a horse soldier. Horses figure prominantly in lots of Lawrence's work, perhaps the majority of his work. Horses represent various things in various places, but the general drift is that the domestication of the horse - the taming of his natural instincts - is what progressed society away from the primitive. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's a good thumbnail thought to keep in mind. Remember Gerald and the control of the mare in Women In Love.Quote:
Suddenly he threw back his head and glanced down the valley. Then he changed his position--he was a horse-soldier. Then he looked at me confidentially.
I found this to be a guy buddy/buddy bond that I think is the sdource of Dark Muse's hatred for the characters. There is no understanding for the Belgian girl. But in fairness to the narrator, I do get the sense now that he's just playing along. I don't think he wants to provoke Alfred.Quote:
'Good luck to her,' he said.
'Best of luck,' said I.
'And what did you tell _her_?' he asked.
'That the baby belonged to the old mother--that it was brother to your girl, who was writing to you as a friend of the family.'
He stood smiling, with the long, subtle malice of a farmer.
'And did she take it in?' he asked.
'As much as she took anything else.'
He stood grinning fixedly. Then he broke into a short laugh.
'Good for _her_' he exclaimed cryptically.
You guys were right about the narrator living with someone when we were discussing how he nursed the peacock to health at his house. I've read the story three times now and just now I picked up the narrator had a wife. These discussions are invaluable. :)Quote:
'Poor little Elise,' he murmured.
'Was she small--_petite_?' I asked. He jerked up his head.
'No,' he said. 'Rather tall.' 'Taller than your wife, I suppose.'
I purposely didn't mention the laughter here. Tonight I will post and quote all nine places in the story where laughter is mentioned.
Virgil, interesting to read about the horse :) I had not thought about the aspect of taming that animal, taking it out of nature and into the war.
I read this differently. I thought that the narrator said the last sentence, not Alfred. This because the ' ' stops and begins again. Not sure now :confused: But how would Alfred know the narrator is married?Quote:
'No,' he said. 'Rather tall.' 'Taller than your wife, I suppose.'
Oh you're right. It was printed incorrectly in the electronic text. It's much clearer in my printed book. It's set off with a new line. You are right, that's the narrator talking. That's why I never picked up on it in my three reads. So we don't know if the narrator is married.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphire
I skipped the mention of Alfred being a horse-solder, knowing full well you, Virgil, would mention it. Great that you gave a consistent interpretation! Alfred is being tamed down not by anyone else but by himself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Since Alfred has never met the narrator, I agree with Sapphire that it was the narrator who said the sentence. Does Lawrence prefer taller women? Alfred said Elise was a taller knockout, which insinuates Maggie is not.Quote:
'Taller than your wife, I suppose.'
Really? I did not see much evidence of his impulse of violence except he shots at Joey once. Are you talking about the part when he said to the narrator why he didn't kill the bird? I thought it was one of men's instincts to eliminate a competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I am looking forward to hearing from everyone why the narrator ran down laughing at the end.
My first thought was "he has gone mad". I have to admit that's still the thought that comes to my mind in the end, though it has changed to "they've all gone crazy" :p. And the thing about it all is that everybody acts like all is normal. Appearances are held up. Just not in that last laugh... In my ears, it is a liberating laugh, a non-caring laugh, a disbelieving laugh... a laugh that might grow into madness if it was not about a whole matter which does not affect the narrator (anymore).Quote:
Originally Posted by JinJang
Of course, there is also the possibility that he likes to laugh
Well, this is a short story and there are several instances of Alfred's violent impulses: (1) He wants to kill Joey, (2) he wants to enforce his will on his wife and I do believe it's suggested that it's by physical force, and (3) the narrator feels threatened when he meets up with him:Quote:
Originally Posted by jinjang
Quote:
He wanted to know the contents of the letter: he must know: and therefore he must ask me, for evidently his wife had taunted him. At the same time, no doubt, he would like to wreak untold vengeance on my unfortunate person.
Been reading along. Think I am caught up and I commend everyone. You all pretty much covered all aspects of this story. One thing, jinjang....
I have to correct you here. Alfred did not refer to Maggie as a taller knockout. Let me quote:Quote:
Since Alfred has never met the narrator, I agree with Sapphire that it was the narrator who said the sentence. Does Lawrence prefer taller women? Alfred said Elise was a taller knockout, which insinuates Maggie is not.
In my interpretation, he is referring to the whole affair of the letter and not to Maggie directly. It says 'it's' not 'she's'....See the difference.Quote:
'God, it's a knockout!' he said, thoroughly amused.
Virgil is somewhat correct about this being a recurring element/theme in L's. right. It's usually an underlying theme in many of Lawrence's works; so it may not be blantantly stated.Quote:
Really? I did not see much evidence of his impulse of violence except he shots at Joey once. Are you talking about the part when he said to the narrator why he didn't kill the bird? I thought it was one of men's instincts to eliminate a competition.
Virgil seems to have that aspect under control. We be anxious to see what he has to say about it....also to view his long list of 'laugh's'.Quote:
I am looking forward to hearing from everyone why the narrator ran down laughing at the end.
Ok, here are the eleven (I know I said nine, but I found another two) places where laughter comes in this story:
(1) When Maggie asks the narrator to translate the letter, page 380 in my text:
(2) When he finished reading the letter, p. 381Quote:
'Can you speak French?' she asked me abruptly.
'More or less,' I replied.
'I was supposed to learn it at school,' she said. 'But I don't know a
word.' She ducked her head and laughed, with a slightly ugly grimace and
a rolling of her black eyes.
(3) When Joey comes up to maggie, p. 382:Quote:
I read to the end. It was signed: 'Your very happy and still more unhappy
Élise.' I suppose I must have been smiling.
'I can see it makes you laugh,' said Mrs. Goyte, sardonically. I looked
up at her.
'It's a love-letter, I know that,' she said. 'There's too many "Alfreds"
in it.'
(4) When the narrator and Maggie are debating the contents of the letter, p. 383:Quote:
'Hello, Joey!' she called, and one of the birds came forward, on delicate
legs. Its grey speckled back was very elegant, it rolled its full,
dark-blue neck as it moved to her. She crouched down. 'Joey, dear,' she
said, in an odd, saturnine caressive voice, 'you're bound to find me,
aren't you?' She put her face forward, and the bird rolled his neck,
almost touching her face with his beak, as if kissing her.
'He loves you,' I said.
She twisted her face up at me with a laugh.
'Yes,' she said, 'he loves me, Joey does,'--then, to the bird--'and I
love Joey, don't I. I _do_ love Joey.' And she smoothed his feathers for
a moment. Then she rose, saying: 'He's an affectionate bird.'
(5) When Maggie is picturing Alfred with Else and Maggie's letters, p. 385:Quote:
'No,' I said, 'it's her mother's.' 'He has sweet smiling eyes, but not
like your beautiful English eyes--'
She suddenly struck her hand on her skirt with a wild motion, and bent
down, doubled with laughter. Then she rose and covered her face with her
hand.
'I'm forced to laugh at the beautiful English eyes,' she said.
'Aren't his eyes beautiful?' I asked.
'Oh, yes--_very!_ Go on!--_Joey, dear, dee-urr, Joey!_'--this to the
peacock.
(6) And when the conversation ends between Maggie and the narrator that first day, p. 385:Quote:
'Oh--!' she cried, with rough scorn--'it's not _me_ that bothers. But
it's the nasty meanness of it--me writing him such loving letters'--she
put her hand before her face and laughed malevolently--'and sending him
parcels all the time. You bet he fed that gurrl on my parcels--I know he
did. It's just like him. I'll bet they laughed together over my letters.
I bet anything they did--'
(7) When the narrator and Alfred are talking about Else, p. 391:Quote:
There was a black look on her yellow face. Suddenly a voice was heard
calling. She poked her head out of the shed, and answered coolly:
'All right!' Then turning to me: 'That's his mother looking after me.'
She laughed into my face, witch-like, and we turned down the road.
Not quite a laugh there, but I think it's the same effect.Quote:
He suddenly flushed so that the veins in his neck stood out, and he
stirred again uncomfortably.
'The Belgian girl said her baby had been born a week ago, and that they
were going to call it Alfred,' I told him.
He met my eyes. I was grinning. He began to grin, too.
(8) When the narrator tells Alfred of the lie he told Maggie, p. 392:
(9) When the narrator and Alfred talk about the possibility that Else is probably making it up, p. 392:Quote:
He stood smiling, with the long, subtle malice of a farmer.
'And did she take it in?' he asked.
'As much as she took anything else.'
He stood grinning fixedly. Then he broke into a short laugh.
'Good for _her_' he exclaimed cryptically.
And then he laughed aloud once more, evidently feeling he had won a big
move in his contest with his wife.
(10) When the narrator and Alfred talk about killing Joey, p. 392:Quote:
'You don't think the _cher petit bébé_ is a little Alfred?'
'It might be,' he said.
'Only might?'
'Yes--an' there's lots of mites in a pound of cheese.' He laughed
boisterously but uneasily.
(11) When the narrator leaves Alfred to go home, p. 393:Quote:
'Why?' he said. 'Why didn't you wring that b---- peacock's neck-that
b---- Joey?'
'Why?' I said. 'What for?'
'I hate the brute,' he said. 'I had a shot at him--'
I laughed. He stood and mused.
Perhaps there are even more that I missed. It's also interesting that Lawrence has another short story titled, "The Last Laugh." Unfortunately I don't recall what that story is about. Let's absorb this all and think it over.Quote:
'But I'll do that blasted Joey in--' he mused.
I ran down the hill, shouting with laughter.
Good work, Virgil. Maybe all these laughs is why I initially thought the story was amusing. At least it first struck me as being so. Everyone else took it all so seriously. I still think it's amusing and I still hold true to my belief that the narrator is amused at the end by the obsurity of this married couple. I find them a triffle amusing and laughable myself, as the lord their dominince over each other. At anyrate, I do think all these frequent laughs are significant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I just read "The Last Laugh" - quite frankly, I was going to tell you I didn't exactly understand that story; it's a strange one. Maybe a second reading would help. You should read it; because, I would love to know your take on that story. I think it's a much later story and appears in Volume 3; it's sort of surrealistic, I think. I have been attempting to read all the Lawrence stories that I have left to read. I am making progress, but I stopped to read a short story by another author and then I will go back to the Lawrence ones again very soon. I cross them off in pencil, in the listing in my one paperback book, that lists all of the stories.
I really misread the part. Thank you for correcting me! A knockout is a blow that knocks out an opponent according to a dictionary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Maybe then we can align this quote:
with this one:Quote:
'God, it's a knockout!' he said, thoroughly amused. Then he stood at ease, one foot out, his hands in his breeches pockets, in front of him, his head thrown back, a handsome figure of a man.
'But I'll do that blasted Joey in--' he mused.
I ran down the hill, shouting with laughter.
Alfred is laughing a triumphant laugh over the fight with Maggie. The narrator got the influence of the laugh, laughing along with Alfred.Quote:
And then he laughed aloud once more, evidently feeling he had won a big move in his contest with his wife.
Virgil, thank you for collecting the laughing scenes for us. I notice Maggie's laugh is not so natural as Alfred's. Maggie's laughs are awkward and uneasy and they seems to be an attempt to hide her discomfort or uneasiness. I do not yet find any other coherence.
Good work, Virgil. I hadn't noticed how many times the characters had been laughing, and that each of them were reacting to the affair with laughter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Okay, I'm done absorbing. Let me take a stab at those quotations. The first few are all attributed to Maggie in some way--either she's actually cracking up or she's imagining laughter. Her laughs seem bitter and almost mean-spirited. She's laughing at the affair, and it's something that's completely repugnant to her. There's also some desperation to her laughs. She struggling to maintain self-control and self-respect here, and she wants to deride the affair because she interprets the affair as attack on herself. I agree with jinjang:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I also agree with this:Quote:
Originally Posted by jinjang
Alfred's laughing because he believes that he got away with the affair. It does appear triumphant.Quote:
Originally Posted by jinjang
The last laugh, though, I don't think is quite so triumphant. The narrator's laugh is the only one that is actually motivated by mirth. I got the impression that he was laughing at the "absurdity" that Janine was talking about:
This is what happens when you get to the discussion late. All the good ideas are taken, and all you can do is quote people. I will say, though, that the narrator could be laughing at just Alfred at this point. This is the part of the story that Alfred really shows his true colors, and the narrator could be reacting to that. Dark Muse called him a "cad." The narrator might be agreeing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I do think it's a little bit of this, too. This could be the narrator's way of saying goodbye. He had been reflecting on the couple for a while now, and his laughter could indicate that he's finally done caring about Maggie and Alfred.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphire
[color="blue"]I am totally agreeing with Quark on the laughing :D
By the way, is anybody else stricken by the magnitude of the use of the word "indifferent" in this story? It just came to me as I reread the first paragraph: those peacocks are indifferent to the narrator, though he "might have touched them". Was that a forecast to what was going to happen? Maggie being quite indifferent about him (out of sight, out of mind), Alfred only interested in his intervention (never asks about the narrator's life). I can not really find the words for it now but I think indifference of ones own life and other people's life is quite a thing in this story. Really not sure why... just a hunch I get...
And I wondered: maybe it is nice to mention a favourite part in the story? Just to wrap it all up? :p Though of course it is the story as a whole that makes it a good read.
I just want to mention that I really enjoyed the part where Maggie tells about her husband. She's obviously answering questions that the narrator asks her, but we do not hear the questions - we can make those up ourselves, like Jeopardy :D
AND I really liked the irony/double meaning in this one sentence uttered by the narrator after Maggie says there's too many Alfred's in the letter - that's how she knows it's a love-letter.Quote:
'And is your husband at home?'
'I expect him home tonight. etc He was driving a gentleman in France for a long time --'
At first I thought he was probably making quite an understatement there. I imagined him saying it in a dry tone, with a bit of a snugger that indicated "fools in love do crazy things, like saying each others name way too often". Then it hit me. There was one little Alfred too many! The baby. :eek: Maybe that's why I like it so much, because it took me a little while to figure it out - now it seems so obvious :DQuote:
'One too manny,' I said.
All in all, I really enjoyed this story - though this might mainly be caused by the fact that we went so deep into it and had such an interesting talk about it! Thank you all for your opinions, and a special thanks for Virgil to invite me and Janine to post new parts of the story so consistently!
:thumbs_up I did not catch that either. He was being sarcastic! How disapproving the narrator was of Alfred! If so, he was laughing at Alfred at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphire
I wholeheartedly agree with you, being grateful to Janine and Virgil. I much preferred people I met here to the story itself, though. Did Janine say that some of us are too serious? I hope she is not referring to me. She did not see my mischievous smiling face each time I joined this discussion. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Sapphire
How do we celebrate when we finish the discussion? I was waiting for either Virgil or Janine to give an ending.
Quark, how did you manage to agree with everyone? You should be a diplomat.
Dark Muse, Thank you for stimulating discussions!
BienvenuJDC, Thank you for trying to distract us here and there! You would have preferred us going slower.:D
Sapphire, Thank you for being so cheerful!
It was my first discussion and you all bore with me well and I am grateful to all!
Quark, liked your post and I laughed so hard at your first statements, about coming in late and quoting others. I am amazed you could comment so effectively, at such a late part of the discussion; you have jumped right in there, and you have made your own comments. You seem aware of all that's going on in this story. Hope you liked it, too. It's like jinjang said:Quote:
This is what happens when you get to the discussion late. All the good ideas are taken, and all you can do is quote people. I will say, though, that the narrator could be laughing at just Alfred at this point. This is the part of the story that Alfred really shows his true colors, and the narrator could be reacting to that. Dark Muse called him a "cad." The narrator might be agreeing.
haha...yes, Quark, you should be one; I think you get good training being a teacher. One must be 'diplomatic' at that profession, I am sure.Quote:
Quark, how did you manage to agree with everyone? You should be a diplomat.
Glad you agreed with me in this statement:
I think now I go back and answer all the posts after mine. I was overwhelmed at first but now I think I will miss too much unless I take it one at a time. I owe it to all of you; having not posted as much lately. But hey, you are ALL doing a stupendous job. I think we have made some Lawrence enthusiasts here and I am very glad of it. We plan to take off one month from he discussion group, because Quark is setting up the Chekhov discussion soon for this coming month. Several of us are involved in both. I hope that after a month you all come back again. I will come and round you all up and get you all excited about the next story I will pick. I have trying to read all the ones I had missed and I have nearly all the L short stories read by now, except the really long ones; but I am working slowly but surely on them, too. I will announce this again at the end of this story discussion.Quote:
The last laugh, though, I don't think is quite so triumphant. The narrator's laugh is the only one that is actually motivated by mirth. I got the impression that he was laughing at the "absurdity" that Janine was talking about...