Why I believe in God?

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

I don't think YesNo is a fool. Craig is a very persuasive individual. He's a sophist of remarkable skill. Add to this an aspect of wishful thinking and you've got the recipe for credulity.

Why do I persist in this argument? Because Craig is emblematic of a pernicious movement that in America is attempting to have creationism taught as science in public schools. Its been rebranded as "Intelligent Design," dressed up in pseudo-scientific garb and presented to people as legitimate science.

Also, I can't stand it when people try to take the faith out of faith, when they think they can believe without making any leap. Its dishonest.

The irony is that there's nothing I'd personally like more than some compelling evidence of God's existence.

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Thanks for responding, Darcy88. These discussions allow each of us to think through our positions. That is all. There is no winning or losing in these arguments.

I don't know much about Craig, but I assume if I learned more he would claim that the something that made a choice triggering the Big Bang was Jesus or Yahweh. He probably wouldn't think it was Vishnu or Rama or Krishna or some generic dimension of consciousness where choices could be made. However, I don't think this cosmological argument does more than show something outside the universe made a choice. It leaves the issue wide open to any religious development, not just Christianity.

Also Craig isn't the one who gave me the basic idea. I've had it already. Craig just added details, both philosophical and scientific, that I was not aware of. Previously, I thought the Big Bang was part of an endless cycle of beginnings and endings until I found out that it was a more radical beginning than I had imagined. So don't blame Craig. He is expressing ideas that reasonably arise when someone understands what the evidence of the Big Bang actually means.

My own view is that I think there is a dimension of consciousness outside but permeating the universe of matter and energy that explains our consciousness, explains near-death and shared-death experiences and explains general "paranormal" experiences that people have. It is these experiences that I am more interested in. The realization that the universe had a radical beginning from nothing only confirms it.

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Originally Posted by libernaut

Though I have seen much to make me believe there might very well be a God, I couldn't prove it. And though I have seen much that would leave me to believe there isn't a God, I couldn't prove that either. There for Agnosticism seems to make sense.
:beatdeadhorse5:

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What you say is very true and both believers and non-believers face this question. But then have you wondered what makes the believers stick with God.
I think a real believer has two traits:
First is humility. It comes from a clear belief that there is a benevolent Power far superior to him/her and his/her success is not solely due to him/her but also due to God’s grace. Hence success does not enter his/her head. I can also add here that a person with humility, ( believer or non-believer) will not rant unnecessarily and insult others, but quietly take his /her option, after trying to see both sides of a coin in all matters.
Second trait is acceptance of all bad, tragic events, out of their control, as God’s will. This quality enables him/her face the rough of the world and get up on his/her feet after he /she has been thrown to ground.
And from where he /she gets these traits.
I think It is a type of wisdom that comes from God’s grace and your personal experiences in life begin to supplement it.
I will just narrate one experience of believers (Mind you, getting true humility is still a long journey for them) which I know from close quarters.
Husband and wife go for their regular 30minutes evening walk, locking their house from front, leaving behind their teenage daughter who was studying for exams in upper room.
Just three minutes later wife gets a call on her cell phone from her sister that some relatives will be coming to their house in an hour. Instead of continuing the walk, she decides to return home, another reason for which being was she also started having a headache. She is back in house in total time less than five minutes.
In this short time a stalker who must have been watching the set up for quite some time has got inside the house with a duplicate key.
Seeing the door open the wife is angry at the daughter thinking she has been casual and calls out angrily to her from down.
The stalker unable to go out from the front door, runs up through the shocked daughter’s room, opens her balcony door and runs away jumping in the neighboring house terrace.
Anything could have happened that day.
Believers will call it God’s grace, non-believers can call it a lucky chance.
P.S. : The stalker was not caught but he would not make another attempt.

As far as religion and any of its branches go, I think you may believe or disbelief anything you wish safely, so long as you don't confuse the belief or disbelief with knowledge. Confusing it is not safe unless you are a good hypocrite.

My dog Tico is dyslexic, so he prays to the Dog. I, for one, believe him.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Mym2t67GGQ...lers%2BDog.jpg

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Originally Posted by Brett Cottrell

My dog Tico is dyslexic, so he prays to the Dog. I, for one, believe him.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Mym2t67GGQ...lers%2BDog.jpg

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Dogs know. He's beautiful.

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Originally Posted by cafolini

As far as religion and any of its branches go, I think you may believe or disbelief anything you wish safely, so long as you don't confuse the belief or disbelief with knowledge. Confusing it is not safe unless you are a good hypocrite.

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I'm not sure if I understand exactly what you are saying, but I don't agree with your blanket statement about Belief and knowledge.

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Originally Posted by cafolini

As far as religion and any of its branches go, I think you may believe or disbelief anything you wish safely, so long as you don't confuse the belief or disbelief with knowledge. Confusing it is not safe unless you are a good hypocrite.

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I find this rather profound.

What is God? Is your belief God? Is what you have learned from your scriptures or what you have heard from your elders God?

Our knowledge of God cannot go beyond these peripheries. Our knowledge of God is our environment's impression on us and nobody can experience anything beyond the realities one is surrounded by his environment.

Do you have any real experience? Does your post here make people convinced about the existence of God? This is a very subtle domain, unearthly and unexplained

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Originally Posted by osho

What is God? Is your belief God? Is what you have learned from your scriptures or what you have heard from your elders God?

Our knowledge of God cannot go beyond these peripheries. Our knowledge of God is our environment's impression on us and nobody can experience anything beyond the realities one is surrounded by his environment.

Do you have any real experience? Does your post here make people convinced about the existence of God? This is a very subtle domain, unearthly and unexplained

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I agree with the part I put in bold, assuming I understood it.

There are people who have had mystical experiences. There are people who have had near-death experiences. There are people who have had shared-death experiences, where they see or experience a loved one who recently died. There are people who have had other paranormal experiences. These are all experiences that come from the environment and can lead to a knowledge of God or something beyond what we normally take to be the space-time matter-energy reality that some people claim is all that is real.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I agree with the part I put in bold, assuming I understood it.

There are people who have had mystical experiences. There are people who have had near-death experiences. There are people who have had shared-death experiences, where they see or experience a loved one who recently died. There are people who have had other paranormal experiences. These are all experiences that come from the environment and can lead to a knowledge of God or something beyond what we normally take to be the space-time matter-energy reality that some people claim is all that is real.

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Your ideas are moving me and I immensely second your opinion, for we all are whether it is the community of scientists, philosophers, thinkers, spiritualists or the common man, all are very mystified and no logic will prove to say there is power or no power beyond our understanding. The universe is mysterious and physics cannot fathom the depth of the mystery or even they cannot have theories.

Both theism and atheism is nonsense and their conclusion never convincing. I do not mean this is an agnostic idea. I do not want to theorize this mystery and I am satisfied by calling it a mystery and whether I call it so or do not do so or theorize, or analogize or hypothesize this will always remain a mystery

Why should we believe in God?
Here is an answer from Christian viewpoint.

''"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."the Bible

Not so long ago a school district here in the United States was ordered by a judge to remove stickers from biology text books that said that evolution was a theory, not a fact.

How interesting in this so-called day of diversity that we allow evolution to be taught as fact but are not allowed to teach that there might be another way to look at life—including Intelligent Design—even if not God!

Even Charles Darwin, the father of evolution, said a century and a half ago, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."

And as Chuck Colson said, "And Darwin didn't know nearly as much as we do about the sophistication of the signal processing from the eye and the nose."3 Not to mention the miracle of birth and millions of other miracles that we live with every day of our life. Even our little dog that is so bright and so loving absolutely amazes me.

In life we pretty much hear what we want to hear and turn a deaf ear to what we don't want to hear. We also see what we want to see and turn a blind eye to what we don't want to see. Belief is basically the same and not based on rational thinking. It's based on choice. Generally speaking, we believe what we want to believe, what we are most comfortable with, and what we choose to believe.

True, none of us has ever seen God and many use this as an excuse not to believe in him. I can't see electrons either, but every time I turn on my light switch, I see the evidence of electrons in action. I can't see radio waves either, or TV signals that come from satellites, or the wind, but I see and hear the evidence of their existence continually.

The fact is if we want to "see" God, we will because the evidence of his existence is everywhere we look. But if we don't want to see him, we won't.

Again, it is choice, not chance, that not only determines our belief in God but also our eternal destiny. So choose wisely. Your life depends on it. Eternity awaits us all.'' (source: ACTS)

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Originally Posted by osho

Your ideas are moving me and I immensely second your opinion, for we all are whether it is the community of scientists, philosophers, thinkers, spiritualists or the common man, all are very mystified and no logic will prove to say there is power or no power beyond our understanding. The universe is mysterious and physics cannot fathom the depth of the mystery or even they cannot have theories.

Both theism and atheism is nonsense and their conclusion never convincing. I do not mean this is an agnostic idea. I do not want to theorize this mystery and I am satisfied by calling it a mystery and whether I call it so or do not do so or theorize, or analogize or hypothesize this will always remain a mystery

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I agree with Osho completely about the inevitability of mystery no matter what. It has no resolution other than true mystery. All tolerance for other people's beliefs or disbeliefs part from that position of awareness of inability to know the ultimate conclusive answer.

I agree that there is no reason to exclude the theory of creation from schools. It's embedded in humankind's history. I wrote to my kids school about this but met with a tentative response that a school was not a place for politics!

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Originally Posted by Delta40

I agree that there is no reason to exclude the theory of creation from schools. It's embedded in humankind's history. I wrote to my kids school about this but met with a tentative response that a school was not a place for politics!

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I would accept a history course on religion in school. But it would have to be taught as history, not as religion. As religion it would have to be taught in contrast to religions not chosen for the course and, as such, a boring and damaging imposition on the freedom of religion.
Furthermore, a history course on religion would have to have a lot of variety so as not to be biased toward one side or the other. I don't think there would be enough teachers capable of giving such a class. If religion is to be genuine, thousands of belief and disbelief systems would have to be exposed. A very difficult task.

I don't believe the theory of creation is about teaching religion. I appreciate that it may be a difficult task but schools are prepared to teach kids about other cultures. Why not throw cultural theories of creation into the mix?

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Originally Posted by Delta40

I don't believe the theory of creation is about teaching religion. I appreciate that it may be a difficult task but schools are prepared to teach kids about other cultures. Why not throw cultural theories of creation into the mix?

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To be fair, you would have to teach many courses as electives. Far too many. Even at a university level they would be far too many.
There are more than 4000 religions in the world. In the United States alone there are more than 300 denominations in monotheism alone.

lol. I don't care enough about the subject to keep debating it, only to say that the theory of creation is a worthwhile topic.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

lol. I don't care enough about the subject to keep debating it, only to say that the theory of creation is a worthwhile topic.

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One of the most interesting religions exists on the basin of the Orinoco in Venezuela. The natives there, being black, clain that after creating the world, God saw a lot of bad people and punished them by turning them white.

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Originally Posted by mazHur

Why should we believe in God?
Here is an answer from Christian viewpoint.


In life we pretty much hear what we want to hear and turn a deaf ear to what we don't want to hear. We also see what we want to see and turn a blind eye to what we don't want to see. Belief is basically the same and not based on rational thinking. It's based on choice. Generally speaking, we believe what we want to believe, what we are most comfortable with, and what we choose to believe.

True, none of us has ever seen God and many use this as an excuse not to believe in him. I can't see electrons either, but every time I turn on my light switch, I see the evidence of electrons in action. I can't see radio waves either, or TV signals that come from satellites, or the wind, but I see and hear the evidence of their existence continually.

The fact is if we want to "see" God, we will because the evidence of his existence is everywhere we look. But if we don't want to see him, we won't.

Again, it is choice, not chance, that not only determines our belief in God but also our eternal destiny. So choose wisely. Your life depends on it. Eternity awaits us all.'' (source: ACTS)

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Awsome...

AOA Mazhar.. i would say that one can find God through rational mind as well. and infact i beleive rational mind ,whose base is strong argument and logic, is one who can only recogonize lord.

evidences everywhere , yes u r right , strongest argument is quran. full with scientific facts, prove one fact wrong rationaly and get rid of Lord. this suggestion is for those who think that they have rational mind.

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Originally Posted by cafolini

One of the most interesting religions exists on the basin of the Orinoco in Venezuela. The natives there, being black, clain that after creating the world, God saw a lot of bad people and punished them by turning them white.

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sounds quite funny yet it may be true. Bad people have been stated in other literature as well to have been turned into elephants and monkeys,etc. This statement cannot be set aside on the mere basis that it doesn't have proof. It is also clear from the belief in Awagon, ie from the theory of reincarnation.
By what other name would you call ''animism'??

I cannot feel the types of personal gods most religions have faiths in. My God if any is universal. My God is all pervasive and does not care whether prayed or not.

I do not believe the God in heaven. There is nothing called heaven or hell. This is just an idea, an invented idea. God is much subtler than what we understand. The cohesive force that keeps the planets moving and the earth revolving comes from that force and I do not have to name it as Jesus or any other things.

My God does not live in temples. God lives only in understanding and the ones we come upon in societies are ideologically warring Gods

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Originally Posted by osho

I cannot feel the types of personal gods most religions have faiths in. My God if any is universal. My God is all pervasive and does not care whether prayed or not.

I do not believe the God in heaven. There is nothing called heaven or hell. This is just an idea, an invented idea. God is much subtler than what we understand. The cohesive force that keeps the planets moving and the earth revolving comes from that force and I do not have to name it as Jesus or any other things.

My God does not live in temples. God lives only in understanding and the ones we come upon in societies are ideologically warring Gods

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I believe in pistachio parfait.

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Originally Posted by cafolini

I believe in pistachio parfait.

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It is really interesting caf

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Originally Posted by osho

It is really interesting caf

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Ah, yes. But I disbelieve in strawberry shortcake.

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Originally Posted by cafolini

Ah, yes. But I disbelieve in strawberry shortcake.

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Just want to point out that your disbelief in it does not make the strawberry shortcake any less existent or tasty, Cafolini.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

Just want to point out that your disbelief in it does not make the strawberry shortcake any less existent or tasty, Cafolini.

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I fully agree with that. Neither does it make it stop being a three-dimensional occurrence when it comes to tasty. Good point.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

Just want to point out that your disbelief in it does not make the strawberry shortcake any less existent or tasty, Cafolini.

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Well, yeah - except that strawberry shortcake was invented by Emily Penn-Fulwell in her 1897 novel The Road to Marianneville, and was only then actually made real by the Elbury Confectionery Company of Westfield, Mass, who marketed it as a sort of comestible tie-in to the book.

In other words, a storyteller made it up and readers made it real. Like God.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

In other words, a storyteller made it up and readers made it real. Like God.

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Except that you cannot see, smell, touch or taste God (nor digest for that matter) ... Which is more reason to believe, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

Except that you cannot see, smell, touch or taste God (nor digest for that matter) ... Which is more reason to believe, I guess.

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Or disbelieve. As you please. No doubt. And when it comes to reason, I'll make it plural. Again on bull's eye.

I think it's a good thing that there is God. But a lot of harm can be done if we misunderstand Him. That's why I like how Apostle John described God as love, and how the Gospels of Christ tell us to reach out to God by faith in His grace. I think this is a well of grace for us and for our lives.

The problem of evil can be really huge though. Sometimes I speak with christians from poor places and how hard and difficulty they have it. They often can't afford a doctor, must contend with litte food and a cold home. I don't think I could handle it if I had to live such a life. I feel burdened already, and I'm living in a western place.

But I suppose one must just look for how even poor people often retain their happiness. I think God can make us happy even in bad circumstances. And happiness is much better than grim survival. Even dying in happiness is preferable to living but being bitter, I think.

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QUOTE=osho;1086036]I cannot feel the types of personal gods most religions have faiths in. My God if any is universal

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One way or the other almost all religions (except agnostic) universally believe in the same God, by whatever name they call it. As you say your God is universal then He falls in the same domain.

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My God is all pervasive and does not care whether prayed or not.

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That's your point of view. Whether you pray Him or not will not make him any difference because he is 'without need'. Apart from praying to Him, He ordains better way of worshipping Him by caring and loving His Creation.
God says demolishing Ka'aba is not as bad as harming someone. For a God of such attributes one has to be grateful to Him for His kindness and love for us. If you don't thank people how can you deem to thank your Lord???All depends on your outlook.

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I do not believe the God in heaven. There is nothing called heaven or hell. This is just an idea, an invented idea. God is much subtler than what we understand. The cohesive force that keeps the planets moving and the earth revolving comes from that force and I do not have to name it as Jesus or any other things.

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Jesus may not be minding the business of the Universe but Someone surely is. Force, yes, force that you are alluding to doesn't come of itself unless someone had Created it. Can you tell me who is the CReator or Causator of that Force??? I call Him God, and you??
Heaven and Hell may be sybolic but they tend to mean that every person would be accountable for his actions. I don't believe putting all the blame on Jesus for ridding us of our sins. No, why should he??? at least I would be guilty of bad conscience if i put the blame of my sins on anyone else, including Jesus.

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My God does not live in temples. God lives only in understanding and the ones we come upon in societies are ideologically warring Gods

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Yes, God doesn't need splendid edifices to live in. But people do need a ''proper place'' to offer their thanks (prayers) to Him, in this case worship edifices of all sorts. As you need a cozy corner to find relaxation so do worshippers need a comfortable corner to offer their thanks or prayers to God.

You got a well-deserved deluge, Osho.

If the OP read what was previously here, my apologies. I got threads mixed up.

Going to a Catholic School that contained about one actual Catholic in it my religion teacher once said something along the lines of. "I believe in a soul because music can touch it."

Obviously never went to a Michael Jackson concert.

But seriously, I liked what he was saying yet; no.

I am a believer also , I don't even remember a time in my childhood not believing , i think nature is the best example , everything is in a balance ,i have some insects in artificial ember(bought for educational purpose) and watching the scorpion how beautiful the design is,nothing chaotic the exoskeleton design so simetric so perfect, the diversity of the fauna and many wild creatures have a design that is not chaotic , a talent for something is another proof , greatest artists create from stone perfect imitations of life, musicians create a sound that resonates with your soul
If you know where or how to look you can find enough proof

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Originally Posted by Chris1991

I am a believer also , I don't even remember a time in my childhood not believing , i think nature is the best example , everything is in a balance ,i have some insects in artificial ember(bought for educational purpose) and watching the scorpion how beautiful the design is,nothing chaotic the exoskeleton design so simetric so perfect, the diversity of the fauna and many wild creatures have a design that is not chaotic , a talent for something is another proof , greatest artists create from stone perfect imitations of life, musicians create a sound that resonates with your soul
If you know where or how to look you can find enough proof

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So true!!:)

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Originally Posted by Chris1991

I am a believer also , I don't even remember a time in my childhood not believing , i think nature is the best example , everything is in a balance ,i have some insects in artificial ember(bought for educational purpose) and watching the scorpion how beautiful the design is,nothing chaotic the exoskeleton design so simetric so perfect, the diversity of the fauna and many wild creatures have a design that is not chaotic , a talent for something is another proof , greatest artists create from stone perfect imitations of life, musicians create a sound that resonates with your soul
If you know where or how to look you can find enough proof

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Is everything in a balance, and what does that mean? Global warming, third world poverty and animal extinction suggests that nature is not in balance. Also the appreciation of beauty is so subjective. A beautiful meadow is one way of looking at a natural landscape, but if you look closer you see a field where animals and insects are eating each other and suffering.

I remember the hymn "All Things Bright and Beautiful" which continues "All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful, the Lord God made them all."
It's a nice song, but the message grates. Life for humans and animals is not nice a lot of the time.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Is everything in a balance, and what does that mean? Global warming, third world poverty and animal extinction suggests that nature is not in balance. Also the appreciation of beauty is so subjective. A beautiful meadow is one way of looking at a natural landscape, but if you look closer you see a field where animals and insects are eating each other and suffering.

I remember the hymn "All Things Bright and Beautiful" which continues "All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful, the Lord God made them all."
It's a nice song, but the message grates. Life for humans and animals is not nice a lot of the time.

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The idea behind everything being in balance is that 'mother nature keeps everything in balance' through the instrument of Life and Death. Nature maintains 'variety' which in fact is the beauty of this universe. If all things were equal there would be no Variety, nothing to choose from. Nature is amazing indeed and seems 'cruel' but it has its own 'priorities' which must not amaze anyone. If there weren't poor who would work for the rich?? If there was no day who would survive the night?? This change of weathers, this global warming, this big fish eating the small fish, etc are all mechanisms of Nature. Nothing to be amazed or surprised at. Variety, yes variety, is the beauty of this Creation, this Universe!

I have faith in god.He listens to our prayers he is almighty our savior.

in beauty i meant how well the "design" is , how beautiful placed are the exoskeleton plates on the scorpion, what i mean is that i see a certain order to these characteristics ,they do not look random

global warming third world poverty and animal extinction are caused by human hands , and extinctions happened before humans, climate changed before humans,what we see today are consequences of our actions