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Yes, I once heard that when she died he had his poems buried with her I think or was it when he died he had them buried with him? Now I am not sure which was it was but eventually the grave was opened and the poetry retrieved. DM is that the legend you are referring to?
Thomas Hardy had his heart buried with his exwife - his first wife. Pretty strange, don't you think?
Yes, but as the story goes, it was the woman who was burried, but he later decided he wanted the poems back, so a friend of his, along with a judge, and an officer of the law, and a doctor I think came to see to the digging up of the body, and all them swore, that when the grave was dug up, she looked just as she had the day she died, as if she had only been sleeping, there was no sign of rot or decay upon her, the only thing that changed was her hair continued to grow and filled the whole coffin, while the poems themslves had showed signs of age, thier pages had yellowed and began to tatter on the edges.
Dark Muse;) Sounds like a likely tale. I know I am a cynic, but you know these myths do grow and become exaggerated in time, to impart a very romantic notion. I can actually believe the woman still looking good after many years, because a friend of mine is an undertaker; he told me of an exhuming of a body, at which he was present, and he made the comment that the man looked so good, they could easily have had another viewing, as he was. Odd, isn't it? But it can be true. Back in Rossetti's time I don't know if they had inbalming, but they may have prepared the body in such a way to prevent decay and also it depends on conditions - perhaps the body was sealed in the casket so no air got to it or in a dry vault. I have heard the hair tale before, about hair continuing to grow, but I am not sure that can truly happen. I would have to look it up. The papers sheets would most probably yellow and tatter naturally, but then who knows? It does make for a fine romantic myth and story, doesn't it? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I wonder, if Thomas Hardy's first wife's grave were exhumed, if they would find poor Hardy's heart beating away....:eek: Now that would be truly bizzare!
I know that it is true that hair and nails can continue to grow after a person dies it was in part because of this phenomen that the led to the beleif and myth of vamprisim, becasue a body would be dug up, and discovered to have longer hair and nails, so it was belived they were indeed the living dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
That is really strange, isn't it? how can that be when the cells are die? There is no life left in them so how can they still grow. I wonder how I would research that phenomen online? Do you know?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I really do not know how it happens, but I have heard nuermous times about it, as I have done a lot of study into vamprisim and vampire lore and seen it said more then one by experts on the subject.
Which story are you guys reading? I think I might get some time this weekend to read it.
The Man Who Loved Islands
Hi Quark,good to see you here. It is a very good story this time. I hope you get time to read it on the weekend. We already have a lot of good posts (do review them, after your reading, if you have the time). I am not sure now where everyone ran off to. As for myself, I just needed a short break. I will re-read the story this weekend, if I have a chance to. I am sure you will have some very good comments and ideas, to add to this discussion. I always enjoy hearing what you have to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
DM, I guess we better get back on topic, or everyone will think we are discussing vampires instead of 'Islands'. :lol:
Here are some thoughts I had the other day ,so I made some notes on particular segments of the text that interested me:
Even from the beginning of the story, I noticed that - by contrast, Lawrence is demonstrating in this paragraph the opposite conditions to his idyllic world and what negative results (specifically) would develop, if this island could be populated, or overpopulated. This world is the world the islander has left to found a new world of his own making, I believe.Quote:
Since, if you are like Abraham, and want your offspring to be numberless as the sands of the sea-shore, you don't choose an island to start breeding on. Too soon there would be overpopulation, overcrowding, and slum conditions. Which is a horrid thought, for one who loves an island for its insulation. No, an island is a nest which holds one egg, and one only. This egg is the islander himself.
In contrast, the next paragraph shows this ‘new world’ to be a splendid, idyllic place and there seems to be only one word in this paragraph to foreshadow this feeling of paradise and that is the word ‘gloomy’ to describe the main dwelling-house; curious. Also, curious to me is the fact and the authors stating so, that the island is ‘quite near at home’ it is ‘not in the remote oceans’. I am thinking that in actuality, L fashioned this story after his friend, who indeed did own an island just off the coast of Scotland, and Scotland is part of a larger island, the UK, which was ‘home’ at one time to Lawrence. I find the words ‘all neat and white-washed interesting, because later in the story, it was stated and emphasized that the man liked to wear white clothing, also that he was always clean and neat…which reflects a kind of ‘perfection’ in mannerism.
Interesting to me are the three islands together, one larger, one smaller – not that he owns them all, but perhaps the number might be prophetic or representative of the three islands of the story and this is suggestion set early in the story. Could the larger island be Scotland, or the land of the islander left behind? Someone already quote that last line; I think it is worth quoting again. It is a great statement!Quote:
The island acquired by our potential islander was not in theremoteoceans. It was quite near at home, no palm-trees nor boom of surf on the reef, nor any of that kind of thing; but a good solid dwelling-house, rather gloomy, above the landing-place, and beyond, a small farmhouse with sheds, and a few outlying fields. Down on the little landing bay were three cottages in a row, like coastguards' cottages, all neat and white-washed.
And when you came to the edge, you could see another, bigger island lying beyond…….you saw to the east still another island, a tinyone this time, like the calf of the cow. This tiny island also belonged to the islander.
Thus it seems that even islands like to keep each other company.
Thus it has a lovely description suggesting the image of a 'paradise', in the presentation of beautiful natural elements of the island; and in the final statementQuote:
Our islander loved his island very much.
In contrast the next paragraph stated…Quote:
Wonderful what a great world it was!
Interesting personification of the island “cowerd dark, holding away from you”, also “the resentful spirit coiled upon itself”, as though it were indeed a human or a distinct character in the story. I like the references of the ‘dog coiled in gloom” and the snake in this limbo state of neither sleep or awakedness. This seems to reflect the state of this man.Quote:
So autumn ended with rain, and winter came, dark skies and dampness and rain, but rarely frost. The island, your island, cowered dark, holding away from you. You could feel, down in the wet, sombre hollows, the resentful spirit coiled upon itself, like a wet dog coiled in gloom, or a snake that is neither asleep nor awake.
I like this part of the statement describing the island at night in the wind and how the islander felt:
Note this exquisite use of words and repetition of the word 'infinite', which is especially significant to these thoughts.Quote:
….you felt that your island was a universe, infinite and old as the darkness; not an island at all, but an infinite dark world where all the souls from all the other bygone nights lived on, and the infinite distance was near.
I think those lines are amazing. Here 'time' or the concept is repeated and emphasized. It is written so poetically. Just so beautiful!Quote:
Strangely, from your little island in space, you were gone forth into the dark, great realms of time, where all the souls that never die veer and swoop on their vast, strange errands. The little earthly island has dwindled, like a jumping-off place, into nothingness, for you have jumped off, you know not how, into the dark wide mystery of time, where the past is vastly alive, and the future is not separated off.
That is great and the whole concept of ‘time’ or perhaps ‘time in relation to isolation’ is embodied here in these statements. I found this so interesting when I first read it. I was thinking of how time chances or is perceived differently by people who are in captivity. This whole passage also seems to me to question the idea of perception and how we view things from different vantage points. I think this part of the story is brilliant writing.Quote:
This is the danger of becoming an islander. When, in the city, you wear your white spats and dodge the traffic with the fear of death down your spine, then you are quite safe from the terrors of infinite time. The moment is your little islet in time, it is the spatial universe that careers round you.
But once isolate yourself on a little island in the sea of space, and the moment begins to heave and expand in great circles, the solid earth is gone, and your slippery, naked dark soul finds herself out in the timeless world, where the chariots of the so- called dead dash down the old streets of centuries, and souls crowd on the footways that we, in the moment, call bygone years. The souls of all the dead are alive again, and pulsating actively around you. You are out in the other infinity.
LOL yes I must take the blame for that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
You did bring up a lot of really good points, as well as found some great passages to post.
Yes this is a good point. I really like the linesQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
For some reason this makes me think of the cookoo bird. Mother cookoo birds will lay only a single egg, within another birds nest, and when the cookoo hatches it will kick out its "adopted" siblings, the hatchinlings of the true owner of the nest, so the best will become his own without compeition from other birds for nourishment.Quote:
No, an island is a nest which holds one egg, and one only. This egg is the islander himself.
I never thought of the idea, that the larger island might in fact be Scotland itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
That is a very good point about the state of the island here refelcting the islanders own state. As well it seems to be another use of foreshadow. It seems as if there are a lot of clues within the first island as to what the ultimate outcome for the islander will be.
That was a great passage, and an intresting concept. I think it also shows that beyond the basics of the changing of the seasons, and the passage from day to night, time is indeed a human invetion and human preception. If you are living upon an island apart from the world. What does it really matter what week it is, or if it is Saturday or Thrusday, or if it is 10 o clock or 2 o clock. And indeed people do tend to loose track of time when the world and responseablities of the world are not there to remind them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I am sure many have had that exeprince as a kid during the summer months when you were out of school of loosing track of time, when you really did not have to pay attention to what time it was becasue you were free of your usual responsbilites.
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Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Thanks, I'll take a look at it over the weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Sorry don't want to take this off-topic. But I read this only a few days ago that the belief of nails and hairs growin after death is a myth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
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Strangely, from your little island in space, you were gone forth into the dark, great realms of time, where all the souls that never die veer and swoop on their vast, strange errands. The little earthly island has dwindled, like a jumping-off place, into nothingness, for you have jumped off, you know not how, into the dark wide mystery of time, where the past is vastly alive, and the future is not separated off.
They are beautiful, Janine. Such beautiful language.Quote:
But once isolate yourself on a little island in the sea of space, and the moment begins to heave and expand in great circles, the solid earth is gone, and your slippery, naked dark soul finds herself out in the timeless world, where the chariots of the so- called dead dash down the old streets of centuries, and souls crowd on the footways that we, in the moment, call bygone years. The souls of all the dead are alive again, and pulsating actively around you. You are out in the other infinity.
I haven’t done much pondering or reading or anything :blush: Am just reading people’s posts at the moment. And they are very thought-provoking.:thumbs_up
Thanks for sharing that poem, Nossa. I was wondering, initially the islander didn't particularly want to be alone in it
But he never really tried to have that relationship with people, initially he was the Master. Never liked anyone man-to-man or man-to-woman. And then onwards onto the second island. He never attempted to seek that balance. On the third, of course, he recoiled from any sort of company, companionship altogether. So, I think its a very good point you make and which I think Amalia, was it? pointed out earlier.Quote:
He wanted an island all of his own: not necessarily to be alone on it, but to make it a world of his own.
P.S. He buried his heart with his wife? Gosh. Curious.
P.P.S. I know next to nothing about art or artists Janine, wouldn't know anything about the Pre-Raphaelites. I'll look them up.
P.P.P.S. Every time I try to post there is a power failure, lol.
DarkMuse, Not your fault at all. We all took a little detour while things were slow. Just need now to get back on-track.
DM, thanks for taking the time to read them. Hope they were helpful.Quote:
You did bring up a lot of really good points, as well as found some great passages to post.
Thanks, and glad you agree, I like those lines very much, too.Quote:
Yes this is a good point. I really like the lines
That is an interesting idea and thought in relation to his line and Lawrence did know a great deal about birds. No doubt he knew this, as well.Quote:
For some reason this makes me think of the cookoo bird. Mother cookoo birds will lay only a single egg, within another birds nest, and when the cookoo hatches it will kick out its "adopted" siblings, the hatchinlings of the true owner of the nest, so the best will become his own without compeition from other birds for nourishment.
Well, I think it could be any island or all islands such as an archipelago, which is a group of many islands. It could even represent a continent...aren't these surrounded by water, too? But considering Lawrence's source for his idea (merely) to form the story, I thought of Scotland and England - this representing the civilized industrial world, he might be indicating in that passage - the world the islander originally called 'home' which is in one of the first passages, before he bought island #1 and moved there. This would make sense to me from a personal Lawrence history in which Lawrence became disgusted first with his own England and later exciled himself from his homeland, to live abroad. However, Lawrence never truly departed from his 'Englishnish'.Quote:
I never thought of the idea, that the larger island might in fact be Scotland itself.
I thought it definitely a use of 'foreshadowing' because Lawrence does this in all his stories and novels. It is very characteristic of his writing.Quote:
That is a very good point about the state of the island here refelcting the islanders own state. As well it seems to be another use of foreshadow. It seems as if there are a lot of clues within the first island as to what the ultimate outcome for the islander will be.
Yes, time is certainly a human convention - it is merely a division and a calibration and to some cultures there is no sense of weekends or working days or this distinct division of time. The American Indians lived by the sun, moon, stars; all time just flowed from this point of the day into the next like a wheel turning...like the blank face of a clock. If someone is marooned on a island alone, their whole concept of time is completely changed. Now time passes in the same way, the movement of the sun and the stars and moon at night become the timepiece and are significant. Even when a person no longer works or follows a routine schedule, it hardly matters when a weekend arises or a week begins, does it? We all have a strong concept of weekends in modern working societies. Also, when doing a task one truly loves, have you ever noticed, just how fast the time seems to advance, but then the opposite is true, when in pain or having to wait for something? Then time seems almost to halt and we are anxious for it to passby quickly.Quote:
That was a great passage, and an intresting concept. I think it also shows that beyond the basics of the changing of the seasons, and the passage from day to night, time is indeed a human invetion and human preception. If you are living upon an island apart from the world. What does it really matter what week it is, or if it is Saturday or Thrusday, or if it is 10 o clock or 2 o clock. And indeed people do tend to loose track of time when the world and responseablities of the world are not there to remind them.
Absolutely true. Then do you recall how hard it was to get back into the routine of school and the concept of time and schedules?Quote:
I am sure many have had that exeprince as a kid during the summer months when you were out of school of loosing track of time, when you really did not have to pay attention to what time it was becasue you were free of your usual responsbilites.
Quote by Hira:
Hello Hira, I tended to believe this is myth. It was funny, last night I was watching the film "The Secret Garden" and the little girl said that about hair and nails growing after death. I had laugh since life does have it's coincidences. I will read that article. It is quite prominient in many stories and myths I know; but I did not think it truly possible for humans who die to achieve this. When the body is dead all the cells are dead as well. We are one entity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hira
DM, you have been watching too many vampire movies.;)
I agree completely and to think there were critics and still are, of Lawrence's writing skill, who say he had 'no form' or was 'not that great a writer, or poet'. Are they kidding? These passages are poetry and so wonderful to read! So deep and rich with meaning, too.Quote:
They are beautiful, Janine. Such beautiful language.
Hira, ponder all you like! We have lots of time. This is a short story you know; we still have the whole month to discuss it, longer than that if you desire it. These threads never truly close, although in this one, everyone will want to get to the next story by the beginning of next month. It is only the 11th though so, as I said, we have much time left on this story. Ponder all you want to and please do review all the posts...there are some good comments there and valuable information.Quote:
I haven’t done much pondering or reading or anything :blush: Am just reading people’s posts at the moment. And they are very thought-provoking.:thumbs_up
I liked that poem very much. Showed how Lawrence was thinking at that time. I think I will investigate and see just what year her wrote that poem so we have some kind of perspective on how he felt at different times in his life. As I said before, Lawrence did waver in his beliefs and concepts, so you must take this into consideration. Basically he did believe strongly in somethings that never truly changed, like his disgust of the modern industrial world and the 'machine'.Quote:
Thanks for sharing that poem, Nossa. I was wondering, initially the islander didn't particularly want to be alone in it.
Yes, that is true. Kind of abstract in his ideas on forming this utopian society, don't you think. He obviously could not realistically connect with other people and form true bonds of love and friendship. Even his marriage failed as I think someone pointed out that it was only mechanical and never a truly love experience. I agree that there really never was any balance; perhaps there was for a short time on island #1 but it did not last long or having any stability really.Quote:
But he never really tried to have that relationship with people, initially he was the Master. Never liked anyone man-to-man or man-to-woman. And then onwards onto the second island. He never attempted to seek that balance. On the third, of course, he recoiled from any sort of company, companionship altogether. So, I think its a very good point you make and which I think Amalia, was it? pointed out earlier.
He absolutely did. Strange, isn't it? I think his body was cremated but not quite sure of that. He was remarried, also, when he died and send the heart to wife #1. I think wife #2 got his ashes, and maybe a nice urn;) .Quote:
P.S. He buried his heart with his wife? Gosh. Curious.
I will look something up on them and send to you in a PM, so we don't go off topic again.:lol:Quote:
P.P.S. I know next to nothing about art or artists Janine, wouldn't know anything about the Pre-Raphaelites. I'll look them up.
So sorry about that. We had thunderstorms today and I had to unplug...I don't take any chances after my computer got hit with a surge during a summer storm.Quote:
P.P.P.S. Every time I try to post there is a power failure, lol.
Power failures seem to be a common problem in some areas/countries these days. One suggestion to you would be write your post offline and save it continually; then copy, paste and post into the forum. I do that often. It is easier to think that way, and not be under the pressure to post immediately.
Yes I agree that it did not seem that is first and only real attempt at having any sort of relationship and intimate interaction with other people had not come about becasue of any true feelings of love at least on his part. But rather it almost seemed as if it was simply easier to just go along with the relationship instead of his trying to explain to the girl that he really did not care for her, and sense she was there all the time, he figured he might just as well untill it grew to be too much and so he had to leave once again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
When I was frist reading this, I also could not help but to think that it seemed as it the Islander had some issues with conmentiment, in a way he did abandon each of the islands the same way in which he ended up abandoning the child, instead of staying to try and work at something with any one of the islands and develop what could have been a good if not purely perfect long term arragement. But whenever things got too involved with each of the islands he just left. In the first he began to have the finicial trouble so he decided instead of trying to work through the hardships he would start over again, and then in the second island he left to aviod the responseablity of having to take care of the child.
I find it intresting then that the last island ended up comming off as this very cold and baren as well as lonely place and far from the hopeful paradise of the fist island, was full of missery and pain.
Well, I think the man had a real problems connecting with any humans and so the woman was not quite real to him either. He had similiar problems perhaps to Lawrence character, Gerald, in "Women In Love". Since this short story is presented as a fable or folktale we aren't privy to the inner-workings of the minds of the man and the woman and how they interact. We can only assume that he is distant having been his characteristic behavior with the other islanders. True that she was there, available and convenient for him. I think when she had the child and then he married her then it would go into a whole new realm, one he definitely could not handle. He married her as a gesture only and surely after that she became repulsive to him and as you said below he could not really commit to anything, let alone a relationship with a woman and his child.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Absolutely, he had problems from the start with 'commitment'...and actually, doesn't this epitomize or represent many a man or woman who can't commit to a relationship, with another human being or partner? I think the theme of this story is quite universal and it is more broad than we think, on first reading. Yes, you brought up a good point here with his 'commitment' issues. What made this man this way is never really stated. But when he started out he seemed to be able to commit to the first island until hardships arose. This could be just like a love relationship when the honeymoon period ends and reality sets in. I think we already stated that this islander could not deal with 'reality'. He was living a sort of dreamworld existence and a vague idea of what he wanted his utopia to be like, the last being very characteristic of Lawrence himself.Quote:
When I was frist reading this, I also could not help but to think that it seemed as it the Islander had some issues with conmentiment, in a way he did abandon each of the islands the same way in which he ended up abandoning the child, instead of staying to try and work at something with any one of the islands and develop what could have been a good if not purely perfect long term arragement. But whenever things got too involved with each of the islands he just left. In the first he began to have the finicial trouble so he decided instead of trying to work through the hardships he would start over again, and then in the second island he left to aviod the responseablity of having to take care of the child.
Yes, it is really just the opposite of how the story begins in springtime. It ends in winter. Interesting, isn't it?Quote:
I find it intresting then that the last island ended up comming off as this very cold and baren as well as lonely place and far from the hopeful paradise of the fist island, was full of missery and pain.
This just brought an intresting thought to mind. It seems almost as if each of the islands represents a different stage in life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
The first island is like childhood growing into adolecents. Where at first everything seems like paradise, it is knew, there are no worries or cares, but still he is faced with some fears and anctipation in the form of the ghosts which arrise, but still for the most part there seems to be harmony, but then as people are brought to the island, it is like the transistion from child into young adult, where a little more responsblity starts to arise, and things become a little less carefree.
Then the second island if full blown adulthood, on the second island he is never quite as happy as he frist strared on the first island, but for a while at least it seems there is some contentment, but still there is even more responsebalites that arise, and he has a harder time trying to find his uptopia.
And finally the last island is the comming of end of life. Where fears seem to start to emger once again, but even greater then before, and one is truly confronted with thier isolation and aloness in the world.
Sorry I've had to be away form the conversation most of the week. I'm a little overwhelmed. Janine, thanks for bringing us back on topic, and thanks for this excellent post. You bring up a few questions, and I'm not sure if they got answered after your post, since I haven't read beyond this. But let me see if I could comment on what you have here.
Good point. Contrast is a very important method Lawrence uses (actually most writers); remember Lawrence thinks in binary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I agree!Quote:
Interesting to me are the three islands together, one larger, one smaller – not that he owns them all, but perhaps the number might be prophetic or representative of the three islands of the story and this is suggestion set early in the story. Could the larger island be Scotland, or the land of the islander left behind? Someone already quote that last line; I think it is worth quoting again. It is a great statement!
I took the snake reference, like the snake in "Sun" as a suggestion of paradise lost.Quote:
Interesting personification of the island “cowerd dark, holding away from you”, also “the resentful spirit coiled upon itself”, as though it were indeed a human or a distinct character in the story. I like the references of the ‘dog coiled in gloom” and the snake in this limbo state of neither sleep or awakedness. This seems to reflect the state of this man.
Now here's where I would like people's thoughts. What is the significance of the "infinite" references through the story? I think I understand the story pretty well, but this is one aspect I can't figure out.Quote:
I like this part of the statement describing the island at night in the wind and how the islander felt:
Note this exquisite use of words and repetition of the word 'infinite', which is especially significant to these thoughts.Quote:
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….you felt that your island was a universe, infinite and old as the darkness; not an island at all, but an infinite dark world where all the souls from all the other bygone nights lived on, and the infinite distance was near.
Actually this strikes me as another off hand reference to infinite. There are lots of these references to infinite. I should go through the story again and document them. But what's Lawrence suggesting?Quote:
I think those lines are amazing. Here 'time' or the concept is repeated and emphasized. It is written so poetically. Just so beautiful!Quote:
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Strangely, from your little island in space, you were gone forth into the dark, great realms of time, where all the souls that never die veer and swoop on their vast, strange errands. The little earthly island has dwindled, like a jumping-off place, into nothingness, for you have jumped off, you know not how, into the dark wide mystery of time, where the past is vastly alive, and the future is not separated off.
It is brilliant writing. Yes i agree time is in relation to isolation (and I uderstand that), but I think it's also connected to the infinite, and I don't quite understand that. I hope we can work through a meaning for it. :)Quote:
That is great and the whole concept of ‘time’ or perhaps ‘time in relation to isolation’ is embodied here in these statements. I found this so interesting when I first read it. I was thinking of how time chances or is perceived differently by people who are in captivity. This whole passage also seems to me to question the idea of perception and how we view things from different vantage points. I think this part of the story is brilliant writing.Quote:
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This is the danger of becoming an islander. When, in the city, you wear your white spats and dodge the traffic with the fear of death down your spine, then you are quite safe from the terrors of infinite time. The moment is your little islet in time, it is the spatial universe that careers round you.
But once isolate yourself on a little island in the sea of space, and the moment begins to heave and expand in great circles, the solid earth is gone, and your slippery, naked dark soul finds herself out in the timeless world, where the chariots of the so- called dead dash down the old streets of centuries, and souls crowd on the footways that we, in the moment, call bygone years. The souls of all the dead are alive again, and pulsating actively around you. You are out in the other infinity.
DM, Excellent point! I also thought of seasons, on each island, representing these various stages or periods in a man's life; such as spring/summer representing his childhood, autumn his adolescence or even adulthood, and winter mature years when he is anticipating and approaching death and the end of his life. This would make sense in the context of the time period that Lawrence wrote this short story -he was about to approach the death stage. In fact this story is discussed in the biography put out by Cambridge - the third in a the series on Lawrence - called "Dying Game". This period of L's life he pretty much knew that he did not have long to live. He had already cheated death so many times and lived way past the years he was predicted to live, so surely in this period his thoughts turned more towards death and the questions of eternity. His poetry from this time period even reflect this fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
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The first island is like childhood growing into adolecents. Where at first everything seems like paradise, it is knew, there are no worries or cares, but still he is faced with some fears and anctipation in the form of the ghosts which arrise, but still for the most part there seems to be harmony, but then as people are brought to the island, it is like the transistion from child into young adult, where a little more responsblity starts to arise, and things become a little less carefree.
Quote:
Then the second island if full blown adulthood, on the second island he is never quite as happy as he frist strared on the first island, but for a while at least it seems there is some contentment, but still there is even more responsebalites that arise, and he has a harder time trying to find his uptopia.
Yes, it pretty clearcut isn't it. The snow could represent 'death' itself encrouching on us and 'obliterating' life itself.Quote:
And finally the last island is the comming of end of life. Where fears seem to start to emger once again, but even greater then before, and one is truly confronted with thier isolation and aloness in the world.
Interesting Dark Muse. It kind of fits, so I would agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes that is a good point, about the snow being the comming of death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I have also though of the idea of ferlitlity vs bareness particualy with the idea of the seasons.
With the springtime of the first island representing fertility, where there is more life and more of the utoptian idea, and then moving more toward the winter of the thrid island represnting barness and the abcenses of life.
Particuarly with the idea, of how when he leaves his child behind, he is turning away from new life and growth, so he goes to a cold place of winter where life could not grow.
Virgil, no problem. Glad to see you back. I realise you are emersed in the Aeneid discussion and that certainly is enough for one person for this month. I have tried to check occasionally on that progress and it looks like an active thread...great! Sorry you are overwhelmed; you can always review when you are less busy. This story has been going along well. Some were answered but that is ok; I always like to hear your thoughts and feedback on what I have written and considered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yes, I knew it to be a big element in this other stories we studied and the novels, as well. Hey, it is getting easier now to spot these devises of Lawrence's. I think I know how the man thinks - well, to some extent. Is 'binary' the right word to use in this instance? Would you believe it; I had to look it up for exact meaning and I thought it would indicate 'contrast' but according to my pocket dictionary this seems to state having to do with doubles or twos. Can you explain more clearly what you mean by it specifically?Quote:
Good point. Contrast is a very important method Lawrence uses (actually most writers); remember Lawrence thinks in binary.
...haha, brilliant minds think alike!:lol:Quote:
I agree!
I think I did also, but it does seem to indicate the state of the man and the island in winter months and when the trouble and uneasiness set in in this particular image of the snake in this state of not being asleep or awake. Isn't the islander in this limbo state himself? Well, the snake could indeed suggest the snake/serpent of the lost paradise, or Eden. I am not sure how temptation fits into this story except in the case of the widow. What do you think? In his way, this man is seeking the lost paradise, but he never is able to regain that. In seeking it it is the opposite to losing it and being driven out of paradise. He instead drove himself out of the negation of paradise (the industralial world) to embark on creating his own paradise; but of course it never works out for him, same as it never did work out for Lawrence.Quote:
I took the snake reference, like the snake in "Sun" as a suggestion of paradise lost.
I think the idea of infinity has a huge significance here. I think for one thing it must have been greatly on Lawrence's mind at this stage in his life. At the end, when the snow comes to the last island, is that not like the total obliteration of 'life' itself, as we know it and death comes to replace what we have known? We cannot know exaclty what death is as we don't know what infinity is either; both are beyond our earthly comprehension. Time is a limited thing and infinity is the opposite of time; it has no beginning and end. This image of the snow blending into the sea, seems to me, to indicate infinity...a endless space with no limitations and no boundaries. No longer can the island be differenciated from the sea. This represents infinity conceptually.Quote:
Now here's where I would like people's thoughts. What is the significance of the "infinite" references through the story? I think I understand the story pretty well, but this is one aspect I can't figure out.
Warning - Spoiler "for Women in Love".
This so much reminds me of Gerald's ending in the infinite snowy space in the mountains. Was that not an infinity as well? Also, the snow envoking a luminous white light, as one would see after death, representing infinity.
Oh, would you do that? That would be great and to post the passages and bold up the word 'infinity'. That would be totally interesting to me, to see just how many times it is repeated in the text. As DM, stated the three islands do seem to represent various stages in a man's life, the last looking toward death, and I add 'infinity'. I believe at this stage Lawrence was definitely thinking in terms of 'infinity'...during this time period he had visited the Etruscan tombs and any possibilities of an afterlife in infinite space was greatly present on his mind.Quote:
Actually this strikes me as another off hand reference to infinite. There are lots of these references to infinite. I should go through the story again and document them. But what's Lawrence suggesting?
I hope I started to work through it; or gave you some ideas towards that end. I know also, that L, soon after this writing, wrote his "Apocalypse", which I read this past year. This Cambridge text, the last in the biography series, looks incredibly interesting to me; I only own the first two editions/installments of the biographies. I looked it up on Amazon and it is highly expensive, but I will keep an eye out for a reasonable copy. How I would love to read it, eventually. First I do hope to read the preceeding two: "The Early Years" and "The Outsider". These are incredibly detailed works and very good with wonderful information.Quote:
It is brilliant writing. Yes i agree time is in relation to isolation (and I uderstand that), but I think it's also connected to the infinite, and I don't quite understand that. I hope we can work through a meaning for it. :)
OK I will do that. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Virgil - thanks, that would be great!Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Hey, I was hoping that you would give me some feedback on my last post and my ideas on the 'infinity' question....well, when you have the time to. Also, in relationship to the ending of "Women in Love"...I value what you think; your opinion of what I was getting at.
That is interesting. I did not notice the seasons of the different islands. But what is it on the second island?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Let the infinity question hold until I look through the story for references. As to Gerald at the end of WIL, yes the same thought came to me as I read. Also reminded me of The Prussian Officer. It seems Lawrence's death scenes are similar. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Janine is the one who first began to talk about the idea of seasons and the islands, I just sort of linked that idea of seasons to my ideas of fertility vs. barness as the story progressess.
That is an intresting question though.
I would think that Autumn might be the best match for the second island becasue it is the transition period between spring and winter, as well it is in Autumn that things first begin thier decay and that life first starts to wither, and yet it can still have its beauty and pleasent moments.
As we can see on the second island, it is leading up to the ultimate downfall of the last island, and is not quite as fresh as the first island was, and yet there seems to be some contentment there at least for a time.
Well, this is the thing; this idea crops up often in Lawrence's work. He seems to link 'white' and 'luminous' and 'snow' and 'ice' with death. Did you read the 'Prussian Officer', Dark Muse, or "Women in Love"? If you did, then you see what I mean. I think that the cold could also indicate death - the body goes cold and also the fact the man keeps getting trapped in his house at the end, when the snow comes - the house becomes as a tomb. He desperately keeps digging out and even his boat must be dug out so he has an escape means and route, but ultimately all this is useless and he gives in to death. I can see how Lawrence would understand this entirely from the vivid memory of his own mother's fight for life when she was wasting away slowly and dying of cancer. At this point in Lawrence's mind he must have felt his own death encrouching upon his life and existence and he must have had these feelings of what it would be like to struggle for life but know one would ultimately have to succumb to the inevitable, the final dissolving into nothingness or eternity/infinity.Quote:
Yes that is a good point, about the snow being the comming of death.
That is an interesting idea to bring into this discussion. Afterall, the woman was fertile and bore the islander a child, even though he did not show it love or take it into his life. The first island was full of fertile qualities and full of life and the second less so, almost there to be a transition to island #3, but then he had Flora's fertiliy on the second island. Do you think this 'fertiliy vs bareness' idea coincides with the seasons? Both mark the passage of time, as do the days and the nights, the sun and the moon, the light and the darkness. Without clocks and calibrations, we are shown that time still passes and is not something needing to be measured. It flows naturally; one season flows into the other, darkness flows into light, spring into summer, summer into fall, fall into winter...a natural progression....and thus a natural concept of time and of a man's life proceeding into the realm of death.Quote:
I have also though of the idea of ferlitlity vs bareness particualy with the idea of the seasons.
Yes, quite a contrast between island #1 and island #2, isn't there?Quote:
With the springtime of the first island representing fertility, where there is more life and more of the utoptian idea, and then moving more toward the winter of the thrid island represnting barness and the abcenses of life.
Again a stark contrast indeed! Even to consider - human warmth to cold aloneness.Quote:
Particuarly with the idea, of how when he leaves his child behind, he is turning away from new life and growth, so he goes to a cold place of winter where life could not grow.
DM, thanks for giving me the credit for that idea. We did good, linking our two ideas/concepts into one, didn't we? As they say 'two heads are better than one!':lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
It is an interesting question.Quote:
That is an intresting question though.
I will check the text tonight, but that certainly would make sense and follow the progression or regression here. Yes, 'transition' seems to be the key idea here on island #2.Quote:
I would think that Autumn might be the best match for the second island becasue it is the transition period between spring and winter, as well it is in Autumn that things first begin thier decay and that life first starts to wither, and yet it can still have its beauty and pleasent moments.
Seems to start out with some contentment but then it goes sour pretty quickly when things don't go as expected.Quote:
As we can see on the second island, it is leading up to the ultimate downfall of the last island, and is not quite as fresh as the first island was, and yet there seems to be some contentment there at least for a time.
No I have not yet read either of those books. Though Women in Love is on one of my reading lists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I did breifly mention in one of my other posts, the idea of the seaons inccorperted into the baren/fertility idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
And how the springtime of the first island and the paradise like feel of it at the begining could relate to ideas of fertility and life, while the cold and wintertime of the last island corresponded with ideas of barness.
Hehe it seemed only fair, and yes that is true. The two ideas do tie into each other nicely I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes that is trueQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
"Women in Love" is great. We recently discussed it on the forum. "Prussian Officer" is a longer short story. We also, discussed it on this thread, not long back; check out the post - there were many. It is a very good story; captivating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Dark Muse, I guess it all got jumbled in my mind, sorry about that...you had linked them; you are quite right. It is like the saying 'which came first, the chicken or the egg' - we both seem to be inspiring the other's thoughts, which is actually a positive thing. I am also thinking how seasons and the fertility processes are based on cycles. These tie in with a conceptual idea of time. Some cultures count out time by cycles and know nothing of clocks.Quote:
I did breifly mention in one of my other posts, the idea of the seaons inccorperted into the baren/fertility idea.
And how the springtime of the first island and the paradise like feel of it at the begining could relate to ideas of fertility and life, while the cold and wintertime of the last island corresponded with ideas of barness.
Like I said above, we are stimulating each others thought processes, a very good thing; discussions should work this way, don't you think? We learn more when we exchange thoughts and ideas.Quote:
Hehe it seemed only fair, and yes that is true. The two ideas do tie into each other nicely I think.
Yes, agree.Quote:
Yes that is true
Last night I did look up whether island #2 mentions being 'autumn' or starting out that way. It does seem Lawrence emphasises the spring/summer beginning the islander's occupancy on the first island and then on island #2 just a short way in he does mention the work 'autumn'. Now, we know that on island #3, he certainly emphasis' 'winter'....
So all our thoughts on the 'seasons' would seem to be accurately observed. If nothing more, the major part of the time spend on each island relates somehow to one of the seasons, even though that season evenually flows into the next.
Most pre-Christain cultures also viewed time a cyclical, instead of linear which is a newer Westeren idea that first began to emerge with Christainty. As many ancient cultures beleived in the idea of the earth going through a rebirthing process opposed to just comming to an ultimate end as in Armageddon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Alot of this would come from with the idea of traking time by the rise and fall of the run and moon, and the changes of the seasons, as well as star posistions in the sky, opposed to clocking or tracking hours.
As for most needs of surivival such as planting, harvesting, hunting, it would nto matter the hour in which it was done, only that it was done when the earth would be the most favorable.
[Yes, that is very true, and I do agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Is the story online anywhere? I'm going to look for it in the library tomorrow, but I don't foresee having much luck there.
DM, Thanks for posting that link for Quark. I read it offline (in my book), but I am using that online text, to post from for quotes. I copied and pasted it and keep it on my desktop to work on from time to time, or to review. It works out well, this new method of mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
No Problem, I had the site book marked becasue it is where I first got the story from.
I find this passage particularly interesting and these thoughts are expressed so beautifully. It makes me think of how a writer must feel at times:
Note this deliberate repetition and use of the word 'gossamer'. This is very effective and sets a definite mood of a dreamlike state. I feel this passage is spinning a kind of web of dreams or subconsicousness. The man seems to be working and writing fluidly, but he is not consciously doing so. He is emersed in another 'unworldly realm' within himself. This mimics the state of the snake in an earier passage of being neither 'awake or asleep'. I love this line also: "letting the writing spin softly from him as if it were drowsy gossamer." Gossamer - what a great word that is!Quote:
The islander said to himself: "Is this happiness?" He said to himself: "I am turned into a dream. I feel nothing, or I don't know what I feel. Yet it seems to me I am happy."
Only he had to have something upon which his mental activity could work. So he spent long, silent hours in his study, working not very fast, nor very importantly, letting the writing spin softly from him as if it were drowsy gossamer. He no longer fretted whether it were good or not, what he produced. He slowly, softly spun it like gossamer, and, if it were to melt away as gossamer in autumn melts, he would not mind. It was only the soft evanescence of gossamery things which now seemed to him permanent.
then, the paragraph continues...
The very mist of eternity...this is a very interesting line and starkly contrasts the next lines stating the fact of the temporary resistence, but inevidable fall of the, seemingly, permanent structures, made by man.Quote:
The very mist of eternity was in them. Whereas stone buildings, cathedrals for example, seemed to him to howl with temporary resistance, knowing they must fall at last; the tension of their long endurance seemed to howl forth from them all the time.
While reviewing I recalled two passages where Biblical references were made and wondered if anyone had any ideas on these two passages:
Oddly enough later, the islander does just that and breeds, only to spur him to separate himself even more from humanity.Quote:
if you are like Abraham, and want your offspring to be numberless as the sands of the sea-shore, you don't choose an island to start breeding on.
Especially, this second statement fascinates me, which I find curious and I think must have some definitel significance to the story. I have one idea. This is that Christ suffered on earth from earthly imperfection and he died in the end. He was isolated as the islander was. The islander, like Christ, is seeking perfection on earth and he must also die at the end of the story, because on this earth 'perfection' cannot be realised. Only in the realms of eternity and infinity, can this perfection be realised and obtained.Quote:
He was wonderful with children, talked to them simply wonderful, made you think of Our Saviour Himself, said the woman.
Let me know what you think of these ideas. I just through them out there for debate.
One of the things I have noticed about the story is the way in which it seems to mix its references.
It useses refercenes to the ancient celts, Greek Mythology, and Christianty and varrious points within the story.
This is quite characteristic to Lawrence. In "Women in Love" he did this sort of referencing quite often, I am thinking mainly of the Greek and classical Mythology and Christianity, but he also referenced to other past cultures, such as African or Egyptian. I think these Celtic references in this story are pretty native to this area, he was thinking of when he fashioned this story, after a certain place in his mind. The fact he does use these Celtic references, do clue us in on the location of the story, don't you think? There is something northern or nordic about the location. He said from the start it was not a tropical island with palm trees. Lawrence was quite well read in the classics, aware of local myth and these Biblical references, which lead me to believe that they are very symbolic to Lawrence. This is why I sited them in my last post. I feel if he took the time to include them specifically, in the story, they must have some greater significance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Oooh, I love those usages of gossamer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I find that very interesting. Even though I didn't in my mind think him to be a compassionate Christ-like figure while reading. In the end, as he approaches the end, there is the phrase Once, like a wraithQuote:
Especially, this second statement fascinates me, which I find curious and I think must have some definitel significance to the story. I have one idea. This is that Christ suffered on earth from earthly imperfection and he died in the end. He was isolated as the islander was. The islander, like Christ, is seeking perfection on earth and he must also die at the end of the story, because on this earth 'perfection' cannot be realised. Only in the realms of eternity and infinity, can this perfection be realised and obtained.
Let me know what you think of these ideas. I just through them out there for debate.
so maybe he became one with those ghosts mentioned in the first island and will perhaps finally attain that perfection, that eternity, that infinity, in his death.Quote:
Once, like a wraith, he got out, and climbed to the top of a white hill on his unrecognizable island. The sun was hot. "It is summer", he said to himself, "and the time of leaves." He looked stupidly over the whiteness of his foreign island, over the waste of the lifeless sea. He pretended to imagine he saw the wink of a sail. Because he knew too well there would never again be a sail on that stark sea.
Isn't it a wonderful word?! It evokes such images. Funny, I just saw the older 'Midsummer Night's Dream' film and in one scene these tiny fairies help to weave a gossamer net over the head of the fairy queen and it becomes a veil. It was so magical and so beautiful. The gossamer came from a spider weaving his web. I was thinking how this passage was like that spider web and not existing in the physical realm or sense, but magical or mystical. It suggests that to me...a dreamlike state. I think the islander is now deep in a trance or dreamlike stage of 'unreality'.Quote:
Hira;513296]Oooh, I love those usages of gossamer.
Well, I thought of this correlation, because Lawrence had a real fascination with crucifixes and felt he got crucified by his public and publishers, even his closest friends, time and time again; crucifixes and Christ images are prevalent in Lawrence writings. He once walked through the hills and mountains of Italy, writing his fine travel novel, "Twilight in Italy", and the whole time he notes the various shrines and crosses along the way. Also, late in life he wrote "The Man Who Died" about his Christ figure remaining on earth and exhibiting very human characteristics. Instead of a crucified Christ dying and ascending to heaven, Lawrence's Christ is resurrected to live out his days on earth. It is a complicated story and one you should read someday, when you have devoured more of the early Lawrence work. It needs to be worked up to. It is however a very interesting short piece work.Quote:
I find that very interesting. Even though I didn't in my mind think him to be a compassionate Christ-like figure while reading. In the end, as he approaches the end, there is the phrase Once, like a wraith
Possibly, but not sure of this idea. Ghosts are still restless spirits so I think if anything the man, before his death, is a ghost since he is indeed a restless spirit in the flesh.Quote:
so maybe he became one with those ghosts mentioned in the first island and will perhaps finally attain that perfection, that eternity, that infinity, in his death.
I agree about the quotes; there are lots of pretty quotes throughout the story. I'll have to post one or two myself.