The Christian Hell

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Originally Posted by skasian

Disproven theories? In top of my head, I can think of a theory that was disproven. Quite old, but shows what science started off from : In the 1700s two people, Ptolemy and Nicolas Copernicus argued their theories on the positions of the planet and sun in the solarsystem, and Galileo supported Ptomley and wronged Copernicus's theory.

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I take it then that you didn't see what I said about accurate measurements. Shows my point if that's the best you have.

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Originally Posted by skasian

Are you are scientist yourself?

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No.

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Originally Posted by skasian

I talked to a group of scientist before, and I am sure they explained mordern science in this definition. How creativity and abstract thinking is what sets a great scientist from the rest.

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Sure it does. Creativity is knowing what to look for and interpret results and abstract thinking is designing experiments to observe.

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Originally Posted by skasian

The dictionary sure knows what its talking about when describing an atheist.
Thanks to that I know what I am talking about.

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Well, I'm sure I won't be the last to tell you that dictionaries do not confer meanings.

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Originally Posted by skasian

Telepathy and some psychics are rather true, even though they are very few in the world.

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Nope, sorry. Proven countless times to be fake.

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Originally Posted by skasian

In my country there are old traditions with psychic people that do supernatural,calling evil spirits. Few years ago, an actor was playing a role around this, and she got possessed and had to be treated in a church.

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How convenient.

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Originally Posted by skasian

Disproven theories? In top of my head, I can think of a theory that was disproven. Quite old, but shows what science started off from : In the 1700s two people, Ptolemy and Nicolas Copernicus argued their theories on the positions of the planet and sun in the solarsystem, and Galileo supported Ptomley and wronged Copernicus's theory.

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Totally totally wrong!

Actually, Nicolaus Copernicus lived from 15th to 16th century, Galileo Galilei from 16th to 17th; and Galiliei proved Copernicus theory of heliocentrism.
They both disagreed with Ptolemy on geocentric system, which was in confrontation with RCC inqusition. If you want, I can find some links to prove my statements.

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Originally Posted by skasian

Telepathy and some psychics are rather true, even though they are very few in the world.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Nope, sorry. Proven countless times to be fake.

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No. It has never been proven that there are absolutely no psychics or telepaths in the world.

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Originally Posted by dzebra

No. It has never been proven that there are absolutely no psychics or telepaths in the world.

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The Atheist didn't claim that. He/she said telepathy and the like had been proven countless times to be fake, i.e. individual instances had been shown to be false.

There's a department of Edinburgh University devoted solely to researching the possibilities of telepathy and related capabilities, however notional. Don't you think if they'd turned anything up, we'd have heard about it?

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Originally Posted by dzebra

No. It has never been proven that there are absolutely no psychics or telepaths in the world.

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Originally Posted by blp

There's a department of Edinburgh University devoted solely to researching the possibilities of telepathy and related capabilities, however notional. Don't you think if they'd turned anything up, we'd have heard about it?

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There are actually a whole heap of universities studying the field, if I may dignify it with that term. But you're quite right that if there were any truth to the myth, we'd have heard about it, long and loud.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

There are actually a whole heap of universities studying the field, if I may dignify it with that term. But you're quite right that if there were any truth to the myth, we'd have heard about it, long and loud.

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I hate to jump in on this totally ignoring theology (where are those hungry lions of Roman Empire fame when you need them, eh?) but there are studies that show consciousness seems to have subtle effects on our material environment. When I rebelled against my former employer over services, I was left to my own devices, and worried about my power chair failing--and fail it did, to the tune of thousands of dollars for a motor I am hoping I won't be forced to spend, so this study makes sense to me, since the brain/mind dynamic is still not fully understood.

Thinking is still a process, Atheist, and something interesting may happen that we don't fully understand with all those billions of neurons flashing orders continuously, even in minute insect brains.

I can't believe this discussion is turning into a debate about telepathy. Never seen that in a religious thread before.

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Originally Posted by Jozanny

I hate to jump in on this totally ignoring theology (where are those hungry lions of Roman Empire fame when you need them, eh?) but there are studies that show consciousness seems to have subtle effects on our material environment. When I rebelled against my former employer over services, I was left to my own devices, and worried about my power chair failing--and fail it did, to the tune of thousands of dollars for a motor I am hoping I won't be forced to spend, so this study makes sense to me, since the brain/mind dynamic is still not fully understood.

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Nope.

This is just mistaken cause and effect. Check out the Parapsychological Association. They are quite sure that minds do have power, but they think it's only an extremely small amount. They're still wrong, but even proponents of telekinesis wouldn't accept your thoughts breaking an electric wheelchair.

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Originally Posted by Jozanny

Thinking is still a process, Atheist, and something interesting may happen that we don't fully understand with all those billions of neurons flashing orders continuously, even in minute insect brains.

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I just can't see it. Millions of claims have been made and investigated - result: nada.

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Originally Posted by blp

I can't believe this discussion is turning into a debate about telepathy. Never seen that in a religious thread before.

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Makes a pleasant change!

I would like to add to this discussion simply because I believe that God is loving and he gives everyone the chance to accept him or not. It's not his fault if a person goes to hell for their sin of not accepting him. We are given a choice...freely. I do think that hell is a place that will be destroyed along with its followers after Christ comes back (for the people who have accepted him as Lord and Savoir.) The reason I don't believe in someone burning forever is because in Revelation it says that the devil and his followers will be devoured and consumed. What does consume mean? I also think no more sin will be left so when it's consumed it will be gone forever. My take on it.
Cat

I never said I was in defense of telepathy, and the study I read did not claim to be either, but I can certainly see the process of thought being one day tied to the symmetry of anti-matter, because as far as I know, thought has no physical manifestation, and while we infer its activity through the cellular observation of the brain, thoughts themselves are not matter.

I heard a critique yesterday on the radio by a female author, which I think was fairly valid: Atheists are so busy showing up religions as nonsense that they forget about the wonder of life, and the joy of it just for itself--and I think you lose that here in these forums Atheist. In pushing back against prescriptive moral codes non-believers wind up as equally dogmatic.

In a bone to this topic: Christians co-opted hell from other pagan sources; it was not derived from messianic writings from the time that Jesus started his teaching. Theologians have a great deal of trouble with it, because punishment cannot be *eternal*.

You punish to correct behavior, not to simply change the conditions of existence. So when believers talk about choice, what they really mean is that the soul has two sets of conditions: One involving unification with the creator, and one involving separation and distinction of identity away from it, but the latter is not punishment, because it corrects nothing. Prisoners in a confined environment know that freedom is still a possibility, even if they are on death row, but if the soul cast out from heaven knows there is no possibility to correct the state of separation, then the state of separation is simply the condition the soul is in, and ceases to be in and of itself a corrective measure.

Some prisoners go too far and do get put to death. They have committed the crime that puts them to death. People who do not accept Christ did so at their own choosing and they are put to death. Sin is then gone through out eternity. Satan will be burned and consumed along with them. That is the punishment. Its called going too far as in our criminal system. And with God, the penalty of sin is death and that sin is NOT accepting him as Lord and Savior. We have choices just like someone who goes out and kill others.
Hugs, Cat

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Originally Posted by Cat_Brenners

I would like to add to this discussion simply because I believe that God is loving and he gives everyone the chance to accept him or not. It's not his fault if a person goes to hell for their sin of not accepting him.

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Don't you think it's a bit odd? On one hand, Moses and Jesus both give commandments, but the only one which must not be broken is atheism?

You can lie, cheat, commit adultery, rape and even murder, and be forgiven, but failing to believe will bring an eternity of torture.

I do find it extremely odd that you'd accept that sort of god and call it loving.

If he created us, he created the sin, he created the ability for me not to see him, and he created the alternative chocies I can see clearly.

What kind of perverted, insane entity would act like that? Seriously, the bible tells us that Satan is the father of all lies, but it seems to me that the god is far, far worse.

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Originally Posted by Cat_Brenners

We are given a choice...freely. I do think that hell is a place that will be destroyed along with its followers after Christ comes back (for the people who have accepted him as Lord and Savoir.) The reason I don't believe in someone burning forever is because in Revelation it says that the devil and his followers will be devoured and consumed. What does consume mean? I also think no more sin will be left so when it's consumed it will be gone forever. My take on it.
Cat

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Ah, so we only get tortured for however many millennia it takes for Jesus to come back?

That's ok then.

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Originally Posted by Jozanny

I never said I was in defense of telepathy, and the study I read did not claim to be either, but I can certainly see the process of thought being one day tied to the symmetry of anti-matter, because as far as I know, thought has no physical manifestation, and while we infer its activity through the cellular observation of the brain, thoughts themselves are not matter.

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Nor is energy.

I'm pretty comfortable with the notion that the brain is 100% material in the action of thought processes, emotion and delusion. MRI scanning consistently shows the same thoughts producing the same neuronic activity in different people. Give it another decade or two and we'll be able to give you a printout of what you're thinking.

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Originally Posted by Jozanny

I heard a critique yesterday on the radio by a female author, which I think was fairly valid: Atheists are so busy showing up religions as nonsense that they forget about the wonder of life, and the joy of it just for itself--and I think you lose that here in these forums Atheist. In pushing back against prescriptive moral codes non-believers wind up as equally dogmatic.

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I can only disagree. I don't ever forget the wonder of life, the universe and everything. I go outside most nights just to admire the universe, and walk around with both eyes open all the time.

As to the dogma argument, I really don't care. It seems to be a theist defence and it's certainly defensive as an attitude to suggest it. Christianity has had 2000 years of dominance, so some of us putting some curry into the odd theists' pockets is hardly dogmatic. Have you ever seen an atheist billboard? An atheist evangelical tv program? Atheists singing xmas carols and collecting for their church? Atheists fishing for recruits door-to-door?

Charges of dogma against atheists avoid the blatant fact that christianity - in western countries - is combative, very visible and in most cases, completely repugnant. Honestly, if there were no fundies, I'd take my wife's title and be a copro-agnostic*. I'm more than happy for Anglicans, Protestants and Left-footers to have their Communions and services and go about their charitable works, but when christians start demanding teaching creationism and claiming that kids will go to hell because they don't believe in a stupid, illogical and ultimately idiotic story about a dead Jew and a ghost, then I will go and kick bottoms.

If that's seen as dogmatic, it really doesn't worry me, because the charge can only come from ignorance or bigotry.

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Originally Posted by Jozanny

In a bone to this topic: Christians co-opted hell from other pagan sources; it was not derived from messianic writings from the time that Jesus started his teaching. Theologians have a great deal of trouble with it, because punishment cannot be *eternal*.

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Luckily, most christians agree with that.

Unluckily, the ones who don't are great experts at being squeaky wheels.

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Originally Posted by Jozanny

You punish to correct behavior, not to simply change the conditions of existence. So when believers talk about choice, what they really mean is that the soul has two sets of conditions: One involving unification with the creator, and one involving separation and distinction of identity away from it, but the latter is not punishment, because it corrects nothing. Prisoners in a confined environment know that freedom is still a possibility, even if they are on death row, but if the soul cast out from heaven knows there is no possibility to correct the state of separation, then the state of separation is simply the condition the soul is in, and ceases to be in and of itself a corrective measure.

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Yes, that's the logical position, if I can any position logical when discussing gods, but as you can see above, it's refuted simply in the minds of wanna-believers, because the bible says so.

*Doesn't know, doesn't give a ..... crap?

:D

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Originally Posted by Cat_Brenners

We have choices just like someone who goes out and kill others.

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Again, a god who equates murder with unbelief wouldn't be much of a god. And that's for murderers who don't repent, because those who do, escape divine retribution.

Cute story, really; I bet it keeps the kids believing. The bogeyman in the closet is mild by comparison, he can only eat you once, but a god who can torture for thousands of years, now that's scary.

("Ah, so we only get tortured for however many millennia it takes for Jesus to come back?

That's ok then.")

I did not mention anything about a millennia now did I? I believe when God comes back the disbelievers and satan will be destroyed. That's how and why I call Him a loving God. They had their whole life to accept or not.

("If he created us, he created the sin, he created the ability for me not to see him, and he created the alternative chocies I can see clearly.

What kind of perverted, insane entity would act like that? Seriously, the bible tells us that Satan is the father of all lies, but it seems to me that the god is far, far worse.")

God created us to live a wonderful life..one free of sin. Man chose to sin and Satan was the creator. He knows he is going to die by fire and he is trying to get as many people taken down with him as he can. He is mad and angry and wants others to suffer so he decieves us if we let him. God is not the creator of sin. Why would a creator want his people to rebel against him? He would not. He loves us and wants our love and obedience.
Hugs, Cat

Someone seems to not be listening. I don't believe that disbelievers burn forever. I believe God is kind in that respect. The murderer that repents and believes in God will not be one that burns. I only meant that we have choices and we make them. We have a life time to make them. So, we really should make them wisely. You can make fun if you like but let's keep this at an adult level ok?
Hugs, Cat