suicides in novels

And what would the artwork of the cover be???

Well, I'll tell you something. If I keep seeing the beauty of the English language butchered like this, I might consider suicide myself.

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Originally Posted by Volya

Why do you find the idea of ritual suicide disgusting?

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Oh, I don't know. I guess it's the way they go about it. The guy pushes his samurai sword into one side of his stomach and then slides it very slowly across to the other side. Eventually his intestines fall out.

No doubt I need to be more postmodern and respect the diverse cultures of other people.

What I wonder is where did they get the idea of doing something like that? Probably someone told them a story of how that would be a cool way to regain their honor.

Yeah, and where do those Muslim terrorists get the idea that blowing themselves up in a market place where women and children are congregating is doing anyone any good? Probably someone told them a story of how that would be a really cool way to die and take others with them at the same time and regain their honor.

And where do those Buddhists get the idea that taking a swig of gasoline and pouring the rest over their bodies and then lighting a match does any good? Probably someone told them a story of how that is the way to regain their honor and like morons they believed it.

And what about those people who leap off cliffs or fall under a train when they mess up their relationships? Probably someone told them a story.

YesNo it's easy to be blase about other people so you can uphold your views and perhaps even allow yourself to feel superior to them. It's the same reason why I think Americans who are progun are uneducated animals, dragging their fists along the ground engaging in weekly incest...

It's all far, far from the truth.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

cacian... let's be real, here. If writers followed all of your rules (no sex, no vulgarity, no profanity, no suicides, no villains, no character abandoned, no fantasy, nothing unrealistic...) we'd be left with a body of literature that no one on earth would have the least interest in reading.

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Yes. It would be the mythical Garden of Eden discovered. Oh no. Wait. They were naked. Highly distasteful. Scratch that. Instead, a Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve wore leaves over the distasteful bits of their anatomy.

YesNo - your in depth analysis of the causes for suicide (a term that covers a wide spectrum of methodology and causality) as all being due to someone telling them to do it in a story. . . unbelievable. And I thought cacian was the only delusional one in our midst.

H

Here is a thought I think is worth pointing out and it is this:
why write about complex tragic things about life with such an ease in stories when one knows they are so not easy to talk about or do in real life?
suicide is a tragedy in real life and we all know that if it could be avoided by banning it tomorrow we will. Yet we seem to write about it in such a manner a blaze way perhaps that it does come across as if it was a futile everyday thing which we know it is not.
It is just an observation and I may well be interpreting in this way because there is so much of it in literature. Of course one does what one feels right about and yes it is up to the writer to decide.

Here is a thought I think is worth pointing out and it is this:
why write about complex tragic things about life with such an ease in stories when one knows they are so not easy to talk about or do in real life?

Ummmm...

1. Because artists feel the need to be able to confront issues from life that are complex and not easy to talk about.

2. Because only creating art about that which is easy and pleasant can become tiresome and lacking in drama.

3. Because it is ART and not LIFE.

There are good books and bad books, boring and intriguing ones, but it´s definetely not the fact of dealing with the suicide subject which determines the qualitiy of a book.
If literature -as a form of art- isn´t allowed to visualize the depths of human nature, the things people avoid talking about openly, where is the sense in writing/reading?
Not a very tempting thought...
By the way, is it more reasonable to stay alive than to kill oneself?
If one doesn´t find a reason to rather live than die, suicide seems to be quite sensible and consequent, although it is a catastrophy for the bereaved. No question about that.
Glamorizing suicide (or violence/crime) is quite a different thing. Bad taste. The mere fact of commiting suicide won´t give a character substance.

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Originally Posted by hillwalker

YesNo - your in depth analysis of the causes for suicide (a term that covers a wide spectrum of methodology and causality) as all being due to someone telling them to do it in a story. . . unbelievable. And I thought cacian was the only delusional one in our midst.

H

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So you are saying there is no one telling a story to justify the suicides, making them seem glamorous, or giving them a bogus, irrational, self-righteous justification? Then what is causing these people to commit suicide and doing so in a similar way in their respective cultures? What triggers these copy-cats?

Regarding cacian, she is not delusional, nor is she a troll.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

YesNo it's easy to be blase about other people so you can uphold your views and perhaps even allow yourself to feel superior to them. It's the same reason why I think Americans who are progun are uneducated animals, dragging their fists along the ground engaging in weekly incest...

It's all far, far from the truth.

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What is the truth regarding suicide and literature--or language in general?

Suicide didn't suddenly come about because someone wrote a story about it. Writing stories in which suicide features is not going to cause an epidemic of suicides any more than writing about vampires suddenly turns everyone who reads such stuff into vampires.

Suicide is a life v death choice - presumably dying is preferable to living in the mind of the person who decides suicide is the only option they have left.

To suggest suicide (presumably from the times of Boudicca, Nero and Van Gogh to Hemingway, Sylvia Plath and Kurt Cobain) is a copy-cat crime motivated by having it written about in 'stories' is a bizarre conclusion to reach. There have been instances where teenagers have entered some kind of suicide pact following on-line glamourisation of such behaviour - but censoring the exploration of the human condition in literature will not suddenly change the human condition.

And for the record, cacian is delusional because she believes a world where Art and Literature are sterilised, bowdlerised and Disneyfied would make our lives more rewarding and meaningful than this dreadful world we currently inhabit where everything is laid open to discussion.

H

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Originally Posted by YesNo

Oh, I don't know. I guess it's the way they go about it. The guy pushes his samurai sword into one side of his stomach and then slides it very slowly across to the other side. Eventually his intestines fall out.

No doubt I need to be more postmodern and respect the diverse cultures of other people.

What I wonder is where did they get the idea of doing something like that? Probably someone told them a story of how that would be a cool way to regain their honor.

Yeah, and where do those Muslim terrorists get the idea that blowing themselves up in a market place where women and children are congregating is doing anyone any good? Probably someone told them a story of how that would be a really cool way to die and take others with them at the same time and regain their honor.

And where do those Buddhists get the idea that taking a swig of gasoline and pouring the rest over their bodies and then lighting a match does any good? Probably someone told them a story of how that is the way to regain their honor and like morons they believed it.

And what about those people who leap off cliffs or fall under a train when they mess up their relationships? Probably someone told them a story.

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Yes, but couldn’t you say that about almost anything? Why focus on such a limited range of religions, such a limited scope of circumstances?

Where do those soldiers get the idea that it’s honourable to kill or be killed for the honour / love / glory of their country? Maybe someone told them a story.

Where do those Christians get the idea that it is better to die than renounce their faith? Maybe someone told them a story.

Where do firemen get the idea that it’s right to throw themselves into a burning building to save another person? Maybe someone told them a story.

Where do men get the idea that a girl wearing a short skirt is asking for it? Maybe someone told them a story.

Where do the nationals of one country get the idea that it’s righteous to bomb civilians going about their business in another country, because someone unconnected to them put a bomb in a building? Maybe someone told them a story.

Ad infinitum. And eventually it gets you to wondering: which came first, the belief or the story? And maybe ‘culture’ is merely the summation of a people's stories that most compellingly represent their beliefs? And maybe the story exists not to glorify or glamorise the belief, but merely to lay it bare, to lay it open to scrutiny.

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Originally Posted by kaethe

There are good books and bad books, boring and intriguing ones, but it´s definetely not the fact of dealing with the suicide subject which determines the qualitiy of a book.
If literature -as a form of art- isn´t allowed to visualize the depths of human nature, the things people avoid talking about openly, where is the sense in writing/reading?
Not a very tempting thought...
By the way, is it more reasonable to stay alive than to kill oneself?
If one doesn´t find a reason to rather live than die, suicide seems to be quite sensible and consequent, although it is a catastrophy for the bereaved. No question about that.
Glamorizing suicide (or violence/crime) is quite a different thing. Bad taste. The mere fact of commiting suicide won´t give a character substance.

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Agreed I think substance and determination is what these characters committing suicide lack. The reason for this is that suicide is a real thing and for it to be dismissed in this way as a fait du jour just because it is a story makes it all the more dismissive of its intricacy. No one should slip away from life in these circumstances because humans are more then capable. Suicide tells the opposite that humans are failing to address such gravity. It is to me unjust to throw suicide at a character just because it is there and we can.
More thoughts into recovering such character ismore interesting in my views then telling me he or she committed suicide. I feel there is more to a life then ending it.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

What is the truth regarding suicide and literature--or language in general?

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I'm sure US La La land is filled with enough morons to educate you about the rest of the world. I was told a story where it warned against engaging in discussion with morons because their view isn't relevant.

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Originally Posted by cacian

Agreed I think substance and determination is what these characters committing suicide lack. The reason for this is that suicide is a real thing and for it to be dismissed in this way as a fait du jour just because it is a story makes it all the more dismissive of its intricacy. No one should slip away from life in these circumstances because humans are more then capable. Suicide tells the opposite that humans are failing to address such gravity. It is to me unjust to throw suicide at a character just because it is there and we can.
More thoughts into recovering such character ismore interesting in my views then telling me he or she committed suicide. I feel there is more to a life then ending it.

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I don't think writers go into a story with an end result of suicide already in mind. At least I wouldn't, I can't speak for everyone. And even if so, that doesn't mean the character would lack substance. Your presuming there's better paths characters can take, other than suicide, which if you feel that way fine. But if you set out for every character to end happy and blissful, then you'll probably lack more substance than the former. Conflict is key to a story: some characters overcome it, some don't. Even in fairy tales, some characters don't end well. Why couldn't Cinderellas step sister's find prince's like her? Why couldn't Gaston survive?

It seems your advocating fairness on the behalf of fictional characters, which is a bigger attack on reality than suicide.

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Originally Posted by hillwalker

To suggest suicide (presumably from the times of Boudicca, Nero and Van Gogh to Hemingway, Sylvia Plath and Kurt Cobain) is a copy-cat crime motivated by having it written about in 'stories' is a bizarre conclusion to reach. There have been instances where teenagers have entered some kind of suicide pact following on-line glamourisation of such behaviour - but censoring the exploration of the human condition in literature will not suddenly change the human condition.

And for the record, cacian is delusional because she believes a world where Art and Literature are sterilised, bowdlerised and Disneyfied would make our lives more rewarding and meaningful than this dreadful world we currently inhabit where everything is laid open to discussion.

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I'm not interested in censoring any story justifying suicide. I prefer to see the story on display so it can be examined. I would call any justification of suicide "delusional", to use your term. That's where I think I agree with what I hear cacian saying.

The stories that I am referring to need not be classic literature, but just the narratives that go through the mind of the person trying to justify suicide. Where do these justifications come from? Too many of the sources for these justifications are treated with too much respect.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

Yes, but couldn’t you say that about almost anything? Why focus on such a limited range of religions, such a limited scope of circumstances?

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Yes, it could, but we are talking about suicide here. I only picked a few circumstances that came to mind that had little to do with my personal life. Regarding suicide, the most interesting case for me personally has to do with the elderly or those who are crippled.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

Where do those soldiers get the idea that it’s honourable to kill or be killed for the honour / love / glory of their country? Maybe someone told them a story.

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Not all stories are toxic.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

Where do those Christians get the idea that it is better to die than renounce their faith? Maybe someone told them a story.

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Another good example.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

Where do firemen get the idea that it’s right to throw themselves into a burning building to save another person? Maybe someone told them a story.

Where do men get the idea that a girl wearing a short skirt is asking for it? Maybe someone told them a story.

Where do the nationals of one country get the idea that it’s righteous to bomb civilians going about their business in another country, because someone unconnected to them put a bomb in a building? Maybe someone told them a story.

Ad infinitum. And eventually it gets you to wondering: which came first, the belief or the story? And maybe ‘culture’ is merely the summation of a people's stories that most compellingly represent their beliefs? And maybe the story exists not to glorify or glamorise the belief, but merely to lay it bare, to lay it open to scrutiny.

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I think the belief is the story. Stores that open beliefs to scrutiny are better than those that do not.

You mentioned stories about whether a girl is asking for it if she wears a short skirt. How do you compare stories justifying rape with stories justifying suicide? I would put them on the same level.

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Originally Posted by cacian

More thoughts into recovering such character ismore interesting in my views then telling me he or she committed suicide. I feel there is more to a life then ending it.

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You're over-simplifying this to quite a large degree. It seems that you're suggesting that suicide is written into books out of laziness or as an easy way out of developing a character further. What book have you read in which the author has a minor character up and off him/herself for no reason at all, as though at random, as though an arbitrary act?

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Originally Posted by Shaman_Raman

I don't think writers go into a story with an end result of suicide already in mind. At least I wouldn't, I can't speak for everyone. And even if so, that doesn't mean the character would lack substance. Your presuming there's better paths characters can take, other than suicide, which if you feel that way fine. But if you set out for every character to end happy and blissful, then you'll probably lack more substance than the former. Conflict is key to a story: some characters overcome it, some don't. Even in fairy tales, some characters don't end well. Why couldn't Cinderellas step sister's find prince's like her? Why couldn't Gaston survive?

It seems your advocating fairness on the behalf of fictional characters, which is a bigger attack on reality than suicide.

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Well I am not suggesting a happy and blissful end to each character of course not in life that is not even close let alone prose.
What I am trying to say is that instead of giving suicide the heroic upper hand, the justifier of the act, that a character is not able to cope because his or her lover does not want them, I am trying to look at other better justifiable alternatives.
Reality is twisted in stories when it comes to suicide because on a one hand a story copies life harmonies and harrows and on the other hand twists it as if to try and say well I am not sure now so I will throw in the towel and my character get the suicide he or she deserves. To me it comes across as that.
I would rather as a writer conduct endurances with words and instead of a character terminating their lives I would suggest new way outs. A character would resumes life by trying to solve disasters or pains he or she is exposed. This to a substantial benefit is a new story to be written.
By subjecting a character to suicide one has weakened words and in a way advocated assurances that life is nothing but despair. One has also let readers down because one has simply cut someone's life short and that in itself signals the end to a story. From a reader's/writer's point of views this is a clichés and clichés are what they are no longer serving when time is up for them to run out. The other thing is that the reader learns quickly to predict how stories will end. This in itself is tedious. Suicides occurs at the end of the stories and that is predictability. I would not be interested in reading anymore because I can predict what will happen before I even finish the book.
So to a writer this means one has reached their capacity of words teller and have no more surprises to pull of the bag. Suicide is obvious and I the writer more obvious then it.
A writer 's talent is advocated by words of knowledge heroic pacificism intricacy as well as credibility of thoughts but if suicide is one to be had then his or her stories no longer prescribe to longevity. In fact one has closed themselves in so he or she is much rather seek other avenues to get the credit deserved.

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

You're over-simplifying this to quite a large degree. It seems that you're suggesting that suicide is written into books out of laziness or as an easy way out of developing a character further. What book have you read in which the author has a minor character up and off him/herself for no reason at all, as though at random, as though an arbitrary act?

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There are plenty of books I have read where suicide was thrown it as an act to defy heroism as the only option. It comes across as blasé and that the writer has either given up or cannot predict ways out to the plots they have digged themselves in. It feels as if one has plotted themselves a task where they no longer see how or when to end it so suicide comes in handy . A bit like an exam where does not understand the question so scribbles out whatever in the hope of getting it right but in fact one is showing off lacks of skills in dealing with the question and therefore gets a zero at the end of it. A zero here is compared to a suicide act in a story.
I personally think it says a lot about a writer's ability to conjure up life expectancies with plausible concepts. It gives perhaps a view on how they would or would not cope if faced themselves with the same dilemmas. This is my opinion and of course you are to disagree with it.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I'm not interested in censoring any story justifying suicide. I prefer to see the story on display so it can be examined. I would call any justification of suicide "delusional", to use your term. That's where I think I agree with what I hear cacian saying...........
............You mentioned stories about whether a girl is asking for it if she wears a short skirt. How do you compare stories justifying rape with stories justifying suicide? I would put them on the same level.

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You're seriously arguing that suicide is just as bad as rape?

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I'm not interested in censoring any story justifying suicide. I prefer to see the story on display so it can be examined. I would call any justification of suicide "delusional", to use your term. That's where I think I agree with what I hear cacian saying.

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Well, there goes Christianity and the God of the trinity. The way the New Testament is commonly interpreted, Jesus Christ engaged in behaviors he knew with certainty would result in his death, apparently in fulfillment of a divine mandate. Moreover, since it was God's (the Father's) intention that Christ die for the sins of humanity, God himself committed suicide with what he apparently thought was a reasonable justification. Another delusional story that should never have been written?

The lesson here might be that suicide is justifiable if it serves a greater good and that writing such stories is worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by Volya

You're seriously arguing that suicide is just as bad as rape?

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Yes. Perhaps more so, but no less so. I assume you think that suicide is an individual choice that involves no one but the person committing suicide and rape involves at least two people, but that is not how I see it. Consider the surviving relatives, the copy-cats, the people blown up in the bomb.

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Originally Posted by WyattGwyon

Well, there goes Christianity and the God of the trinity. The way the New Testament is commonly interpreted, Jesus Christ engaged in behaviors he knew with certainty would result in his death, apparently in fulfillment of a divine mandate. Moreover, since it was God's (the Father's) intention that Christ die for the sins of humanity, God himself committed suicide with what he apparently thought was a reasonable justification. Another delusional story that should never have been written?

The lesson here might be that suicide is justifiable if it serves a greater good and that writing such stories is worthwhile.

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I do have a problem with the Christian story. Some of it doesn't make sense to me, but perhaps I don't understand it. I suspect many of the early Christians who were sent to the lions actually wanted to be killed to imitate the crucifixion.

I think one has to be careful about suicide justified to help others. This is especially the case when one is dealing with the elderly or those terminally ill. There might be cases where this is acceptable, but they would be the exception rather than a pattern to imitate.

EDIT: This is how I see the story of the crucifixion. (I'm not a member of one of these religions, so no doubt this is heretical.) Jesus did not want to commit suicide. The Jews did not want to have him killed, let alone crucified. Pilate was a butcher. Jesus became visible to him the previous week. Pilate wanted to humiliate the Jewish population by killing one of their popular teachers on their feast of the Passover. So Jesus was murdered. He did not commit suicide. Christians later experienced shared-death experiences of Jesus which led to his resurrection.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I do have a problem with the Christian story. Some of it doesn't make sense to me, but perhaps I don't understand it. I suspect many of the early Christians who were sent to the lions actually wanted to be killed to imitate the crucifixion.

I think one has to be careful about suicide justified to help others. This is especially the case when one is dealing with the elderly or those terminally ill. There might be cases where this is acceptable, but they would be the exception rather than a pattern to imitate.

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So, it seems you are saying there are issues with respect to suicide and its justification that are highly debatable and of critical moral weight. Do you not believe that novelists who make the best possible case for controversial stances on this issue might be furthering the discussion by actually portraying suicides and suicidal characters? And wouldn't many writers consider it their duty—a matter of artistic integrity—to make the best possible case for their characters' actions, whether or not they ultimately endorsed their positions?

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Originally Posted by YesNo

Yes. Perhaps more so, but no less so. I assume you think that suicide is an individual choice that involves no one but the person committing suicide and rape involves at least two people, but that is not how I see it. Consider the surviving relatives, the copy-cats, the people blown up in the bomb.

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That may be true, but WHY is suicide wrong? If it is their own life, why should they not be able to choose to end it?

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Originally Posted by WyattGwyon

Well, there goes Christianity and the God of the trinity. The way the New Testament is commonly interpreted, Jesus Christ engaged in behaviors he knew with certainty would result in his death, apparently in fulfillment of a divine mandate. Moreover, since it was God's (the Father's) intention that Christ die for the sins of humanity, God himself committed suicide with what he apparently thought was a reasonable justification. Another delusional story that should never have been written?

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It is a story indeed and that is what it is by no mean a true one if one does not wish to believe it or follow it because it lacks logic. If God could send someone to ensure he or she dies for humans sins he could also send someone to ensure that sin does no longer become a stigma a part of our lives. There is a paradox there. God power extends beyond human sacrifices surely that is the most credible way to any story. Why would God chose death over success? I am not sure I bite into this ambiguous rather conflicting reasoning.

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The lesson here might be that suicide is justifiable if it serves a greater good and that writing such stories is worthwhile.

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I am not sure I follow. How is someone killing themselves help me and you and the world in general? how does it stop someone from doing something? suicide sets the wrong example in that it sends the message that it is ok to kill oneself . It also says that we humans have given up on each other. Caring for each other's well being is telling someone to not take their lives away. That is a better more sensible if not the credible message.

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Originally Posted by Volya

That may be true, but WHY is suicide wrong? If it is their own life, why should they not be able to choose to end it?

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It is not about wrong or right. It is about humans being seen to care for one another. It is logical and safer long term if we are seen to want to save people's live and not be passive about it as if it were a right of passage. It is important for humans to show that they are capable of feeling for one another and that hope is worthier then death. Being passive about a subject such as suicide is saying we humans give up and also give up on others. Existence is worth living and living is about wanting to be alive wanting to quit it is contrary to what life is about.

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Originally Posted by cacian

It is a story indeed and that is wht it is by no mean a true one if one does not wish to believe it or follow because it lacks logic. If God could send someone to ensure he or she dies for humans sins he could also send someone to ensure that sin does not longer become a stigma part of our lives. There is a paradox there. God power extends beyond human sacrifices surely that is the most credible way to any story. Why would God chose death over success? I am not sure I bite into this ambiguous rather conflicting reasoning.

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I don't believe in supernatural phenomena of any kind. Personally, I think the whole premise under Christian mythology is absurd since an omniscient, omnipotent supreme being in the Christian mold cannot be reconciled with free will. (Calvin, among many others, figured this out but made the mistake of doing away with free will rather than with God.) My point was that for anyone who believes it is wrong to write about and glorify suicide, the divine suicide underlying Christianity should be problematic at the least.

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Originally Posted by cacian

I am not sure I follow. How is someone killing themselves help me and you and the world in general? how does it stop someone from doing something? suicide sets the wrong example in that it sends the message that it is ok to kill oneself . It also says that we humans have given it on each other. Caring for each other's well being is telling someone to not take their lives away. That is a better more sensible if not the credible message.

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In Christian mythology, God's suicide, enacted through Jesus Christ, atones for the sins of mankind, which, according to all Christian religions, is a great benefit to humankind. As I hinted, I am not a Christian.

"I don't believe in supernatural phenomena of any kind." ~ WyattGwyon

Well, that's what's possible to believe in, not in what you know, which is incredible.

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Originally Posted by cacian

It is not about wrong or right. It is about humans being seen to care for one another. It is logical and safer long term if we are seen to want to save people's live and not be passive about it as if it were a right of passage. It is important for humans to show that they are capable of feeling for one another and that hope is worthier then death. Being passive about a subject such as suicide is saying we humans give up and also give up on others. Existence is worth living and living is about wanting to be alive wanting to quit it is contrary to what life is about.

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But if somebody wants to take their own life surely it is more compassionate to allow them to do so than to deny them that right.

I think cacian is getting confused between the morality (or otherwise) of committing suicide and the morality of writing about a fictional character who commits suicide. The point she raised in her OP was that suicide should not be written about in literature because it sets a bad example (lol!). I assume that writing about war or murder or deceit or grief or poverty is also to be avoided because they might also set a bad example. Oh what a wonderful planet she must live on.

H

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Originally Posted by YesNo

Yes. Perhaps more so, but no less so. I assume you think that suicide is an individual choice that involves no one but the person committing suicide and rape involves at least two people, but that is not how I see it. Consider the surviving relatives, the copy-cats, the people blown up in the bomb.

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I'm sorry but this is disgusting. To suggest suicide is as bad as (or possibly even worse than) rape, is appalling.

Regardless of what you think, suicide is an individual choice. It involves others indirectly, not directly. And we're not talking about suicide bombings here, that is something entirely different; in a suicide bombing, the act of killing others takes precedence over the suicide, the willingness to sacrifice oneself in order to kill others just makes it an easier task to accomplish. It has a direct affect on its victims. A suicide where one is just ending one's life due to any number of factors only directly affects the actual suicide, sure there are others affected indirectly, but that is also their choice to allow this to affect them. It has been said that suicide is the most selfish of acts, but it has also been said that those who want someone who (is miserable) and wants to die to go on living are really the selfish ones.

Rape has a direct victim; it is a violent act of aggression, generally against a weaker victim. It is a terrible, life-altering experience. I cannot believe you are suggesting that the victim of a rape, is affected less so than someone who has a family member or close friend commit suicide. Disgusting.

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Originally Posted by hillwalker

I think cacian is getting confused between the morality (or otherwise) of committing suicide and the morality of writing about a fictional character who commits suicide. The point she raised in her OP was that suicide should not be written about in literature because it sets a bad example (lol!). I assume that writing about war or murder or deceit or grief or poverty is also to be avoided because they might also set a bad example. Oh what a wonderful planet she must live on.

H

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H, I think you have this right. Maybe even more so than you realize. Cacian does think that writing about war, murder, deceit, grief, and poverty are to be avoided. In her words only "a literature that uplifts" is okay... So, a literature entirely devoid of all meaning, of the binary oppositions (and the grey areas between) that make up life, art, etc. Cacian seems to fail to comprehend that life is about contrast, without dark we cannot appreciate light (and vice versa), without sorrow we cannot appreciate joy.

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Originally Posted by cacian

It is not about wrong or right. It is about humans being seen to care for one another. It is logical and safer long term if we are seen to want to save people's live and not be passive about it as if it were a right of passage. It is important for humans to show that they are capable of feeling for one another and that hope is worthier then death. Being passive about a subject such as suicide is saying we humans give up and also give up on others. Existence is worth living and living is about wanting to be alive wanting to quit it is contrary to what life is about.

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Wanting to quit life in moments of despair and even committing this act, this is not contrary to life at all. It is just another pathway to the one inevitability of life. Death. We all die. Of old age, disease, murder, suicide, accident. How is this contrary to life? And who are you to decide what life is about for others? Life is obviously not worth living for many people, hence the reason they kill themselves. They surely do not commit suicide because they read about it in a book and thought that they might as well give it a go. To suggest that an author who includes suicide (a very natural act) in his/her work is incapable of empathy, compassion, in general, caring about life and others, is ludicrous. I think it's quite obvious to just about everyone (but you) that good literature can and should explore all of life's many facets, both positive and negative.

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Originally Posted by Volya

But if somebody wants to take their own life surely it is more compassionate to allow them to do so than to deny them that right.

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It depends how you understand compassion. By compassion I understand it is care and knowledge in the sense that I will partake in showing gratuity towards life by sharing it with others. For me to be able to fullfill life enjoyement and its meanings i therefore will must help someone else in need to overcome whatever it is that is leading to wanting to quit their lives. To prove to myself that I enjoy life to the full and that I think about the various meanings of life I shall therefore help someone else in needs to do the same. Compassion is about showing others what you know yourself is beneficial and good about life. To let someone take their lives means that we have not yet grasped the values of life and what it wants us to achieve.
Think of it in a different contest. Would you let someone starve themselves or not wash ever ie hygiene because they think it is piety and that is good for them?
The answer for me would be no because there is food and water and therefore there is no reason for wanting to deprive oneself when there is to be had. Life is about having what is on offer and not rejecting it. That for me is logic. Let's not take away life from life when it gives it to us for free.

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Originally Posted by cacian

It depends how you understand compassion. By compassion I understand it is care and knowledge in the sense that I will partake in showing gratuity towards life by sharing it with others. For me to be able to fullfill life enjoyement and its meaning i must help someone else in need to overcome whatever is leading to wanting to quit their lives. To prove to myself that I enjoy life to the full and that I think about the various meanings of life I shall therefore help someone in needs to do the same. Compassion is about showing others what you know yourself is beneficial is good. To let someone take their lives it is in a way we have not yet grasped what life is about and what it wants us to achieve.
Think of it in a different contest. Would you let someone starve themselves or not wash ever ie hygiene because they think it is piety and that is good for them?
The answer for me would be no because there is food and water and therefore there is no reason for wanting to deprive oneself when there is to be had. Life is about having what is on offer and not rejecting it. That for me is logic. Let's not take away life from life when it gives it to us free.

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I think you just spoke about empathy, a natural parameter of feeling. Com-passion is passion in common, and rare cases do exist, but they are not the norm.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I'm not interested in censoring any story justifying suicide. I prefer to see the story on display so it can be examined. I would call any justification of suicide "delusional", to use your term. That's where I think I agree with what I hear cacian saying.

The stories that I am referring to need not be classic literature, but just the narratives that go through the mind of the person trying to justify suicide. Where do these justifications come from? Too many of the sources for these justifications are treated with too much respect.



Yes, it could, but we are talking about suicide here. I only picked a few circumstances that came to mind that had little to do with my personal life. Regarding suicide, the most interesting case for me personally has to do with the elderly or those who are crippled.



Not all stories are toxic.



Another good example.



I think the belief is the story. Stores that open beliefs to scrutiny are better than those that do not.

You mentioned stories about whether a girl is asking for it if she wears a short skirt. How do you compare stories justifying rape with stories justifying suicide? I would put them on the same level.

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YesNo I always respect and often agree with your opinions, but here I think you're way off base. Suicide and rape are not at all comparable. Rape is a violent act committed against another, suicide is a violent act committed against oneself. A rapist is simply a bad person, a suicide is not.

I despise the popular sentiment towards suicide. No one can know what it is to inhabit the mind and feel the pain of another. I think suicide should be a right. We did not choose to be born, why must we feel obligated to live?

The main character in my novel kills himself. I see no valid justification for the prohibition of suicide in literature. No subject is out of bounds when it comes to art.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

YesNo I always respect and often agree with your opinions, but here I think you're way off base. Suicide and rape are not at all comparable. Rape is a violent act committed against another, suicide is a violent act committed against oneself. A rapist is simply a bad person, a suicide is not.

I despise the popular sentiment towards suicide. No one can know what it is to inhabit the mind and feel the pain of another. I think suicide should be a right. We did not choose to be born, why must we feel obligated to live?

The main character in my novel kills himself. I see no valid justification for the prohibition of suicide in literature. No subject is out of bounds when it comes to art.

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I respect your opinion as well, Darcy, and have always enjoyed our discussions.

The only time that I can think of that I would be sympathetic to someone who commits suicide is if their entire family were killed and they were the only survivor. I could see them committing suicide. I don't think this would be right, but I could understand the survivor guilt.

Regarding the right to commit suicide, I don't think it is possible to stop someone from doing it. The most one can do is not pay the survivors any life insurance as a result of the death and legal things like that.

Regarding prohibiting suicide in literature, I am not in favor of prohibiting it. However, I would disagree with the final result if the suicide were portrayed in a positive manner. The market however determines what survives in literature not censors.

We mainly differ on comparing rape with suicide. I consider suicide worse than rape. Imaginatively, (don't actually do this, because there is no point in causing her stress) ask your mother which would hurt her more: (a) being raped or (b) going to your room and finding that you killed yourself. I think she would choose (b). Alternatively, you could ask yourself this question: which would hurt you more (a) being raped while detained in prison or (b) finding your girlfriend or your mother with a self-inflicted gunshot wound through her head?

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

I'm sorry but this is disgusting. To suggest suicide is as bad as (or possibly even worse than) rape, is appalling.

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I was counting on responses like this, islandclimber. Let me make sure my point is clear: Suicide is worse than rape and the suicides's victims are the survivors. Just ask the parent of a teenager who committed suicide.

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

Regardless of what you think, suicide is an individual choice. It involves others indirectly, not directly. And we're not talking about suicide bombings here, that is something entirely different; in a suicide bombing, the act of killing others takes precedence over the suicide, the willingness to sacrifice oneself in order to kill others just makes it an easier task to accomplish. It has a direct affect on its victims. A suicide where one is just ending one's life due to any number of factors only directly affects the actual suicide, sure there are others affected indirectly, but that is also their choice to allow this to affect them. It has been said that suicide is the most selfish of acts, but it has also been said that those who want someone who (is miserable) and wants to die to go on living are really the selfish ones.

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We should not eliminate the political-religious-philosophical motivations for suicide. They are the the most inane aspects especially when seen at a distance from the issues involved. And as far a literature goes, which is what this thread is about, they usually involve stories--some pretty sick stories.

Why is it that the suicide's victims are expected to handle themselves appropriately, but the person who actually commits suicide is given a free ride? That is like saying, the girl who has been raped should realize that it is her "choice to allow this to affect" her?

I hadn't heard before that suicide is the most selfish of acts. Let me say, having heard that, that I totally agree. Couple that with political-religious-philosophical self-righteousness that is motivated by stories, it is the most disgusting of acts.

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

Rape has a direct victim; it is a violent act of aggression, generally against a weaker victim. It is a terrible, life-altering experience. I cannot believe you are suggesting that the victim of a rape, is affected less so than someone who has a family member or close friend commit suicide. Disgusting.

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Let me be clear. I am not suggesting. I am asserting that the person who commits suicide has harmed his or her family as much--no, more so--than a rapist.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I respect your opinion as well, Darcy, and have always enjoyed our discussions.

The only time that I can think of that I would be sympathetic to someone who commits suicide is if their entire family were killed and they were the only survivor. I could see them committing suicide. I don't think this would be right, but I could understand the survivor guilt.

Regarding the right to commit suicide, I don't think it is possible to stop someone from doing it. The most one can do is not pay the survivors any life insurance as a result of the death and legal things like that.

Regarding prohibiting suicide in literature, I am not in favor of prohibiting it. However, I would disagree with the final result if the suicide were portrayed in a positive manner. The market however determines what survives in literature not censors.

We mainly differ on comparing rape with suicide. I consider suicide worse than rape. Imaginatively, (don't actually do this, because there is no point in causing her stress) ask your mother which would hurt her more: (a) being raped or (b) going to your room and finding that you killed yourself. I think she would choose (b). Alternatively, you could ask yourself this question: which would hurt you more (a) being raped while detained in prison or (b) finding your girlfriend or your mother with a self-inflicted gunshot wound through her head?

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I'd be far more devastated by finding my girlfriend or mother dead after their suicide than I would be after being raped, but I would think lesser of the rapist than I would of my girlfriend or mother. Likewise, I think my mother would think the person who raped her is morally lesser than her suicided son. I suppose overall you could try and argue that suicide is in a certain sense "worse" than rape, but that would be in the wider emotional devastation it causes on others and not in regards to the moral status of the person who commits the act.

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Originally Posted by Volya

That may be true, but WHY is suicide wrong? If it is their own life, why should they not be able to choose to end it?

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Suicide is wrong, if you affirm that the universe is good. It is neither right nor wrong, if you assume the universe is not good.

This has nothing to do with any theistic position or atheistic position.

So, you are asking the right question and given that, I would ask you, what is your position on the goodness of the universe?

Regarding someone having the right to kill themselves or not, the fact of the matter is that people will kill themselves whether they have the right to do so or not. You can't stop them from doing so. However, you can tell them stories that might encourage them one way or the other.