I liked the music too, you had to actually listen to it.
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I liked the music too, you had to actually listen to it.
Castrate rhyming poets? You're talking bollocks surely Wolf.
We'd never have had this by Philip Larkin:
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/178055
or this by the same,
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/178051
And might I add that these two are far more shocking than the poo wee sperm wank that you write Wolf, because they are really critical, and really say something about society then and now.
The problem - as others have mentioned - is that rhyme is all too often forced and misused. Rhyming poetry still has its place, when crafted carefully. One of the interesting aspects of rhyming poetry is the intellectual constraint it places upon the poet.
Wolf is certainly talking nonsense. Evidenced even more so by his exclusion of contemporary rap poetry from what he deems "terrible rhyming poetry." His statement: "rhyming poetry written by white people sucks!" might be one of his most absurd. Contemporary rap lyrics are for the better part, awful, regardless of rhyme. There are some talented rap lyricists/poets but to offer this up alongside a statement that white people suck at rhyme is so misguided. For poetry, one could list many examples by Leonard Cohen of great contemporary rhyming poetry. Or how about Bob Dylan's spoken word "Last Thoughts on Woody Guthrie"? Here it is, in all its rhyming glory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0OdNY8Aybw
If we are looking at poets from the musical side of things, how about the Canadian spoken word indie band The Fugitives? The song Shiny Plastic Bags is brilliant with its use of rhyme. Or Tom Waits. Or GA Johnson from Piano Magic? Jar of Echoes is pretty amazing. Lyrics are here along with the song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWXbi-huWD8
There are many contemporary poets who use rhyme quite effectively. I prefer free verse, almost exclusively, and am in general apprehensive about any new poetry with rhyme, yet this does not mean all contemporary rhyming poetry besides African American rap poetry is trash. What an absurd idea.
Robert Frost once said something like: "Writing free verse is a bit like playing tennis without a net." I don't agree with this, but to advocate the opposite is pretty silly Wolf.
Start with rhyming, and once you believe that you've mastered that, then try free verse.
Not bad, but better (a thousand times better) is the Jewish poet David Lerner. Perhaps only the literary world could make a Jewish poet so sick to his stomach that he would entitle a poem about it “Mein Kampf” :Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
“Mein Kampf”
by David Lerner
all I want to do is
make poetry famous
all I want to do is
burn my initials into the sun
all I want do do is
read poetry from the middle of a
burning building
standing in the fast lane of the
freeway
falling from the top of the
Empire State Building
the literary world
sucks dead dog dick
I’d rather be Richard Speck
than Gary Snyder
I’d rather ride a rocketship to hell
than a Volvo to Bolinas
I’d rather
sell arms to the Martians
than wait sullenly for a
letter from some diseased clown with a
three-piece mind
telling me that I’ve won a
bullet-proof pair of rose-colored glasses
for my poem “Autumn in the Spring”
I want to be
hated
by everyone who teaches for a living
I want people to hear my poetry and
get headaches
I want people to hear my poetry and
vomit
I want people to hear my poetry and
weep, scream, disappear, start bleeding,
eat their television sets, beat each other to death with
swords and
go out and get riotously drunk on
someone else’s money
this ain’t no party
this ain’t no disco
this ain’t no foolin’ a
grab-bag of
clever wordplay and sensitive thoughts and
gracious theories about
how many ambiguities can dance on the head of a
machine gun
this ain’t no
genteel evening over
cappuccino and bull****
this ain’t no life-affirming
our days have meaning
as we watch the flowers breath through our souls and
fall desperately in love
this ain’t no letter-press, hand-me-down
wimpy beatnik festival of *****ing about
the broken rainbow
it is a carnival of dread
it is a savage sideshow
about to move to the main arena
it is terror and wild beauty
walking hand in hand down a bombed-out road
as missiles scream, while a
sky the color of arterial blood
blinks on and off
like the lights on Broadway
after the last junkie’s dead of AIDS
I come not to bury poetry
but to blow it up
not to dandle it on my knee
like a retarded child with
beautiful eyes
but
throw it off a cliff into
icy seas and
see if the the mother****er can swim for its life
because love is an excellent thing
surely we need it
but, my friends…
there is so much to hate These Days
that hatred is just love with a chip on its shoulder
a chip as big as the Ritz
and heavier than
all the bills I’ll never pay
because they’re after us
they’re selling radioactive charm bracelets
and breakfast cereals that
lower your IQ by 50 points per mouthful
we get politicians who think
starting World War III
would be a good career move
we got beautiful women
with eyes like wet stones
peering out at us from the pages of
glassy magazines promising that they’ll
**** us till we shoot blood
if we’ll just buy one of these beautiful switchblade knives
I’ve got mine
If these lyrics were posted on this site I can image others telling the author that he or she should stop rhyming. It would be easy to remove the few end-rhymes in this song, but what would that accomplish? One would get nothing better than what one had before.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
That's why the focus on rhyming is misplaced. Artists and critics should focus on the message and improve the sound quality of the writing rather than preaching ideology that bans some sound components.
What I like about Wolf's thread is that he caricatures, perhaps unintentionally, this anti-rhyming inanity.
Both Larkin and Lerner are self-righteously angry. There's nothing wrong with that, but if one wants to have a major impact one has to go beyond anger.Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfLarsen
Lerner writes, as Wolf quoted:
I come not to bury poetry
but to blow it up
He didn't succeed in blowing up poetry, at least not with that piece. However, many artists do succeed. Here's an example of poetry being blown up. I like to think Adele Adkins wrote most of the lyrics but credit is also given to Dan Wilson.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwsaoLEvWbw
It looks like the Royal Albert Hall was packed. At about 2:50 into the video, Adele took the microphone and directed it at the audience. She asked them to sing the lyrics, and they did. Not only did they all know the lyrics, they loved them.
Now that's what I'm talking about.
I found it insipid and uninteresting.Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfLarsen
Speculation on what Beethoven would compose today is silly. Do you mean someone of his genetic makeup raised by a completely different set of people in a different environment? Or do you mean Beethoven transported through a time machine and forced to make a living as a composer today? If the former I wouldn't assume he would become a composer. If the latter, he would find the posted piece incomprehensible or a bad joke.
The hand that signed the paper felled a city;
Five sovereign fingers taxed the breath,
Doubled the globe of dead and halved a country
These five kings did a king to death.
The mighty hand leads to a sloping shoulder,
The finger joints are cramped with chalk;
A goose's quill has put an end to murder
That put an end to talk.
Two stanzas from Dylan Thomas. Write something better and then complain about rhyming verse.
I like it - but a thousand times better? I don't think it's better, but then that's just my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfLarsen
The problem with this kind of poetry, as I see it, is it presumes on action from essentially a passive situation. I've just glanced at his bio - so he lived a bohemian life. What did he change but fail to give himself the chance to pursue belief/ non-belief through his writing and poetry. I'm not criticising someone for leading a bohemian lifestyle, or for taking drugs, but what does it achieve if your write all the rage and then kill yourself through selfish indulgence? It is preachy and apocalyptic whilst the poet himself is self indulgent and ultimately impotent. He could well have become great - it's a good poem of its type. At least Larkin had the courage to pursue his lifelong disillusionment towards a flowering of his poetry. Lerner talks of a kind of subversive courage,but the hyperbole is unachieveable. Larkin had a downbeat courage which he pursued to the end.
OK just one think. What happened to the shoes? How unclassy is that look?!Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
Trust a woman to focus on shoes (or the lack thereof) :lol:
H
Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattGwyon
Actually the piece that Emil posted reminded me a bit of Beethoven's last quartets. I think there was a nod in his direction in them.
I missed her shoes.Quote:
Originally Posted by cacian
I don't think she is high class. Her accent, when she is not singing, sounds lower-class, but I'm not sure not being from England. For all I know, that's how the Queen talks, but I doubt it.
She started the concert out, which is available on DVD, being amazed that she was actually in "Lord f*cking Albert Hall", which doesn't sound classy, but it was funny. She also clarified at the concert that her ex-boyfriend, who was an inspiration for this song, was not totally to blame by explaining, "He's an ahsshole and I'm a b*tch." I'll take her at her word.
My daughters like Adele. I've enjoyed this song and Rolling in the Deep. I wanted to pick someone who was young, female, who wrote her own rhyming lyrics that had gone beyond any initial anger and who was currently popular as an example. This would contrast with the Dylan, Cohen, Larkin and Lerner examples that were already presented.
I am not opposed to poetry that does not rhyme nor do I like all rhyming poetry. The Larkin poem about his parents and grandparents messing him up doesn't appeal to me because of the content even though it does rhyme. I do think language, whether poetry or prose, is basically sound and meaning. Too much of the 20th century disparaged the sound component of language as well as its meaning. Thankfully, we are now in the 21st century.
The class system in England died out about 100 years ago. No one outside the Royal family and the landed gentry speaks like the Queen, thank goodness (monotonously robotic).Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
H
The rhyme is just the form, but the poem is shocking for the fact that Larkin seems so anti his own family. There is a kind of truth that he's getting at there. The undoubted influence of parents upon their children is what he's on about, and there are plenty of examples of people being messed up by their parents. When I first read it, I didn't like it because of the shock and content. This is despite the poem being very true of my own parents, both in the effect their parents had on them, and the effect they had on my own siblings.Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
I've no doubt that it has relevance for a lot of people, though it is a shocking poem - and much more shocking than the stream of consciousness expletives used by Wolf.
Larkin is more shocking that Wolf.
The anger in Larkin's poem did not seem resolved to me. That's the main reason I didn't like it. Perhaps the anger shouldn't be resolved. Larkin is right that parents mess up their children. They also give them at least one blessing which is the chance to live and do things differently. Maybe the poem is fine the way it is. I can see why people like it.
I do find Adele's accent attractive. Of course, it could be just those long eyelashes.
This reminds me that we should revive the "Poem of the Week" discussions again.
I was inspired:Quote:
Originally Posted by Emil Miller
Loud Echo . . . Loud Echo
Screeching through the soul;
Eech, eech, eech, O, leech,
who slurps life’s faint swells.
Listen to the blasted wastes,
the belching concrete abysses,
the arguments of everyday,
the quotidian expenses.
All the girls whistle low,
puking on Michelangelo.
Knock, Knock,
woodpecker’s incessant call
inflames these migrained senses
where nuclear war bursts
against sanity’s weak defenses.
Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!
Oh, that cacophonous breath
like rancid meat left five days
in hell’s spectacle of shames.
All the girls whistle low,
puking on Michelangelo.
Gobble, Gobble, Munch, Munch!
They chew and spit my flesh,
each of these pretty snowflakes
drifting lost in the dreariness of death.
I've written free style verse, but i consider that being able to write a sonnet that conforms to the form, has rhyme that adds to the sense of the poem, develops an interesting/ significant argument, and is stimulating to read - or in other words is worth reading - would be something for me to aspire to.
As for castration - you'll have to sew them back on first.
( Thanks to Basil Fawlty for that one).
Well it was slightly more similar to Beethoven's late quartets than it was to the sound of an exhaust fan or a flushing toilet. Does that constitute a nod?Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
Perhaps the Wolf is just cryptically saying blank poetry is really good especially when it is blank. Rap hum hum "beo is cunnertach"
Ah! That should do it. And it almost rhymes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkshadow03
I volunteer for castration. I rarely rhyme in my own poetry, yet... SOLIDARITY?!?!?
Hand me the scalpel....
*Hands scalpel over with a nervous shiver, thinks about running yet remains, stoic even unto the death of this genetic line
Just be gentle? Can castration be gentle?
It depends where they stick the result.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
I have no objection with rhyming and in fact i still enjoy the rhyme when i studied as a child during my nursery days and i feel nostalgic about the days when i had to rot beautifully versified, metered rhymes and today in my adulthood i am told to believe rhyme is unimportant. Yet i do not want to agree that rhymes to be totally given a zero score. There are competent writers who has the dexterity to write beautiful rhymes at no expense of theme and the philosophy.
Yes, and so should poets who write in free verse.
Because in English rhyme draws attention to itself more than I assume it does in French or Italian (nobody accused Racine or Dante of writing pantomime verse) it tends to be rather comical in effect. And there is some wonderful comic verse depending on the use of rhyme:
He thus became immensely rich
And built a splendid mansion which
Is called The Cedars, Muswell Hill
Where he resides in affluence still
To show what everybody might
Become by simply doing right. (Hilaire Belloc)
The clunky rhymes on the weak words (which, still, might) highlight the utter smugness of the sentiments which are being sent up. Brilliant.
of course it can!Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
Snaps on latex gloves, a spot of gel and a surgical mask.
'Ankles together Mr Islandclimber. That's good. Now just let your knees slowly fall away. What's that? You need to calm your nerves? Nurse just lodge a spoon firmly between his teeth will you we seem to have run out of whiskey.....'
Or.. sit on the high chair with the hole in the middle...
I piss off people when I write
And let my drivel show.
I like to tick 'em off and might
Decide to drop some more tonight
And cover them in rhymes to 'white'
Like streets in cozy snow.
Double scalpel, no whiskeyQuote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
:lol::lol::lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
Well, I can't rhyme, but I have enjoyed much poetry in the past that does, like this:
O CAPTAIN! my Captain! our fearful trip is done;
The ship has weather'd every rack, the prize we sought is won;
The port is near, the bells I hear, the people all exulting,
While follow eyes the steady keel, the vessel grim and daring:
But O heart! heart! heart!
O the bleeding drops of red,
Where on the deck my Captain lies,
Fallen cold and dead.
All things are beautiful in their time. Like rhyme :) Hear-tell the accordian's makin' a comback in newly released pop. Just last year ... who knew? May be the sympathy factor, following the mass castration of accordian men over the last several years.
Any reasons why you think so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jassy Melson
How is one supposed to write if everything else is telling not to?
How does one cross? oh I know there is a zebra crossing, poor zebra, it is more flabs of paint thrown across for shine effect.
Does the mind really think that painting strips white, that reminds prison suits, one is safe from crossing?
who is the genuis behind the white strips? What a donk!
Who is anyone to tell anybody how other should write? what right have they got?
Haha this tickled me here is my take I wish it dubbious read.Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
i write to avoid
and those who do
annoy
let them shine the troy
he'll come off horse's
clops
and begins to sprout
toss
will see if he will
poss
the land of
literature lords
and then this :
he did not reach the dine
he'd realised the fine
he'd bought a watch
and can
never tell the time.
Freedom is a beautiful thing. I write both in rhyme and non-rhyme and make no apologies. I embrace my freedom to do whatever I feel like doing whenever I want. I read both, appreciate both, enjoy both. Sure, there are times when abuse of rhyming leads to groaning but there is equally abuse in non-rhyming that leads to groaning.
I'm new at writing poetry and recently tried my hand at writing a ballad in iambic pentameter with rhyming. I now have a new appreciation for how difficult it is to do this without it sounding sing-songy, trite, forced, archaic, childish, sappy....there's an art to it and it's not easy, but history has shown it can be mastered. I'm a novice. I hope I never become so advanced as to set parameters for other's creativity. That's when I'll stop learning.
^ YesNo...bravo!