Also there's a song by Arctic Monkeys called Plastic Tramp, about a fake beggar. The lyrics are pretty good but harsh. Unfortunately it's the truth though...
Printable View
Also there's a song by Arctic Monkeys called Plastic Tramp, about a fake beggar. The lyrics are pretty good but harsh. Unfortunately it's the truth though...
That trip was Dec/Jan, '07/'08.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I'd been there several times with my job and my señora wanted to go. Oddly enough, we both found ourselves with time off during the holidays, so we did a last-minute, shoot-from-the-hip visit to India.
In Mumbai, she and I stayed at a Sheraton in a pleasant neighborhood in town. It was a low-key area, the people were friendly, the food was good and inexpensive, and there was a gorgeous Hindu Temple near by.
One day we went down to the Taj (that's were I'd stayed earlier with my job) and over to the Oberoi to do the tourist thing. I agree with you - the begging down there is industrial-strength, and we suspected the kids were working for the man.
So anyway, we were standing out there by that big Gateway edifice and a little girl comes up to La Señora Sancho. Hollywood couldn't have come up with a better beggar. She was about belly-button high, skinny, darkly complected, barefooted, had rats-nest hair, and was wearing a dirty yellow dress. She didn't want me to take her picture, so I didn't. This is where it's important to know that my wife comes from a long line of cops and has a cynical streak a mile long. Here's the conversation between the two of them as best as I can recall:
Girl (with hands out, palms up): Money for milk, madam?
La Señora Sancho (with hands on hips and slightly bent at the waist): Where's your mother!?
G: Mother sick. Mother with baby, madam.
LSS: Where's your father?
G: Father dead. Please, madam, money for milk. Milk for baby.
LSS: Why aren't you in school?
G: No money for school, madam.
LSS: Do you have any brothers or sisters?
G: No, madam. Only me. And mother. And baby. Please, madam, money for milk.
Well this back-and-forth went on for a while and, impressively, the little girl had an answer for everything. She was quick. And so, Mrs Sancho finally fished around in her purse and gave the girl several coins. And then we wandered along the embankment for a while. Twenty minutes later we're back at the gateway and we spotted the girl standing by an ice cream stand, eating a kolfi on a stick. Mrs Sancho marched right over there and demanded and explanation:
LSS (one hand on hip, one hand pointing at girl): You said you needed money for milk!
G (one hand out, one hand firmly gripping kolfi treat): Money for milk, madam?
But she knew the gig was up.
Later that same day we were over by the Victoria Train Station, which was were I snapped the photo of the little guy. I'm certain he was not working for the man. He was self employed - half-pint entrepreneur. And he had brass. We'd've brought him home with us if we could've gotten away with it. A kid with tenacity like that would be on the fast track to a fortune 500 corporate board room in the States.
Speaking of tenacity, I agree with you Paul, the caste system has a tenacious hold on the mindset over there. I won't defend it. But I will say this: while it's tragic that there's little opportunity for upward mobility there, there's also a weird sort of piece of mind. (Weird to western minds anyway) The poor people there don't have the angst of poor people in the west, who see wealth all around them and know they have somehow failed to achieve it. For many Indians, a caste is a state of being, and hence, I don't think the upper castes look down upon the lower castes in the same way the western upper classes look down on the lower classes. In the USA anyway we see poor people as failures. There must be something wrong with them. Probably they're too lazy or stupid to make a decent living. Whereas in India, those people are poor because that's just the way it is.
Here's another thing that shocked me about India: they don't pickpocket over there. The first few times I went there, I was in my anti-pickpocket mode - walking everywhere fast, pretending I knew where I was going, with my wallet in my front pocket, and my hand on my wallet, just like I do in Paris or Madrid. Finally some British dude in a bar told me, "You know, mate, they don't pickpocket here." I said, "No kidding."
Who'd'a thunk it?
The problem of beggars has existed since time immemorial but its present increase is, in my view, connected to globalisation. The enormous disparity in wealth between those who have used the new technology to massively increase their wealth and the rest was bound to result in a situation where the world's conurbations are increasingly blighted by those at the bottom of the scale who resort to begging. Of course, there are some beneficiaries of globalisation, such as Bill Gates, who have philanthropically donated large sums to worthy causes but it's small scale compared to the huge wealth that is increasingly being concentrated in fewer hands than perhaps at any time in history.
I thought chugger when I saw beggar.
They are kind of same but different at the same time.
In South Africa we have A LOT of homeless people and beggars (poor people in general for that matter). They are everywhere. Actually I'm sitting here giggling to myself at all the 'shocked' posts...you should see my neighbourhood on trash day. It shouldn't be so funny, but the contrast in our experiences...I can't help but laugh.
I encounter the most beggars at home* actually. They knock on the door asking for food, clothes, money or work (once off jobs, not permanent employment).
Food – my mom freezes left overs in empty 2 litre ice cream tubs, so when they’re full and someone asks for food, she’ll put the frozen block in a plastic bag for the beggars to take home and heat up. But then you get people who get cocky…one guy asked for frozen raw chicken pieces because he had people coming over for the weekend. Some people have asked for canned food, as in, that’s all they are willing to take. Lulz…so beggars can be choosers, people, but they really shouldn’t be. My parents’ house got a lot of traffic at one point and one day my mom was threatened by this one guy when she said she didn’t have anything to give. He was beating on the door until my mom called the police and they put him in the back of the van (because he sassed the officers). We had people begging at the door four times a day, so I told my mom that she has to pick her three or four favourites (I know) and only give to them (we only have so much food to give anyway), otherwise it’s just too dangerous and she’s home alone during the day. We also give them old clothes when they come round and we’ve cleaned out the closets or what have you.
Clothes – like I said, usually we give our old clothes to the food regulars, but sometimes we have people asking for clothes specifically, so we’ll give if we have. And then of course you get ones who ask for specific type of shoes or clothing items: “I want work boots…size 8”. Oh yes, of course sir, kindly wait here while I go see if we have something in your size. Seriously, some people think there is an endless supply of food and clothes. I know why they think that, but it’s still annoying sometimes. I don’t expect someone to grovel or anything, but not even my family walks into my house demanding I hand over certain items.
Work – some people ask to wash the car or do some gardening. We don’t take people because we have garden services etc.
Money – we usually don’t give money, but every now and then we give to people who ask for shelter admittance or paraffin, or something like that. This post is going to get out of hand though if I tell all my ‘money’ stories too: you get the scammers and crazies who come round to tell you the exact same looooooong sob story about whatever, every time. They NEVER get money. I’ve also heard a lot of stories where people decline giving money but offer to make food and then as the beggars are walking away, while the home owners are looking through the window, they can see the beggars throwing the food away.
As for other kinds of beggars…
I never give anyone a lift. EVER. It’s just plain dangerous. You stop for a woman and her baby and next thing you know people are jumping out of bushes jacking your car. True story, and many more where that came from.
If there’s a beggar in front of a super market or a fast food place I’ll buy something from them to eat. They always take the food when they’re there.
I hardly ever see buskers, when I do I don’t mind giving.
As for people who are, very obviously, drinkers. Most of the time I give them money too (when I don’t have food with me or there’s no shop nearby). Once the money leaves my hand it’s theirs to do with it as they please. Wine and beer have calories too… And what if they actually did want to buy food? I live in a town outside of Cape Town, and even though I see homeless kids here too, in the city there’s obviously a lot more, but I see many of them walking around with empty chips packets inhaling glue fumes. I give them money sometimes, sometimes I don’t, but then what if they really want something to eat? And then some of the kids are ordered by their parents to give them the money, so the parents can buy glue or alcohol or whatever. Beggars who look like meth addicts only ever get food from me though.
Then you get the traffic light beggars. Again, usually I’ll give. Some people don’t give to beggars who look too well-dressed, but what happens if I lose my job and have to go begging on the streets? My clothes will be clean (in the beginning), I have all my teeth and my hair is professionally dyed and cut… :/
I always try to have coins and ten rand notes with me, because we have ‘car guards’ here, so I usually have something to give and then I also keep some coins in the car’s ashtray. I know some people think I’m a sucker and I give too freely (when it’s comes to tips and car guards too), but I have so much. I’m not rich or anything, but compared to some of these people I might as well be the bloody Queen of England. And really, if I give away a few Rand a day it’s not going to bankrupt me. I might have to eat out less or something, poor poor me. I’ll probably eat out anyway and just put it on my credit card and pay it off next month. Such a hard life I have.
Many years ago, when I was a first year in university, or there abouts, I went into a shop…I got three fashion magazines, sweets, and ice-cream for me and my brother. It cost me a lot of money. But there I was standing in the queue to pay, with a couple, who were obviously poor, standing in front of me unpacking their basket: small packet of coffee, small packet of flour, some rice, 1 litre of milk, you get the picture. I felt awful. I was spending twice the amount they were and I was buying crap, essentially, with pocket money!
I used to work at a co-op/hardware store for extra pocket money while I was studying. People would come in, sweat dripping off them, because they had to walk kilometres on a hot summer’s day (sometimes really old people) to get their gas canisters filled. Then when they have to pay and I say, “R39.50 please” and I can see their faces fall, because they only brought R37 because they didn’t know the price of the gas went up. Some of them looked like I had just informed them of a death in the family. I always paid the extra. How can I send them home when I got paid R120 for half of Saturday, for pressing a few buttons?
I drive by people going through trash cans every day. In fact, when I sit in my lounge and I look out my sliding doors, past my teeny gravel garden onto the park behind my place, I will see a few homeless or poor people walk by during the day and go through the trash can that’s there. It’s winter here now. Most mornings I see homeless people walking around with soaked through clothes and blankets, or sitting in parks with their clothes laid out on the grass in the cold morning sun hoping for them to dry. When I lie in my bed at night and the rain is coming down hard and I imagine them having to curl up in a doorway on the street somewhere... When it’s snowing and I get dressed in front of my fan heater…
When I see things like that all the time (or think about it) how can I not give when I have something to give?
Good idea for that end-of-the-month cash shortage. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tonywalt
*I say home, but I mean my parents’ house, not really mine. I live in a closed complex.
PS: Sorry for the big post.
The situation is very different in Europe. There are fewer beggars here, but they are not in the same situation as the ones you describe. They are most often, but not exclusively, men, and many clearly have drug and alcohol problems, and/or mental health problems too. There are agencies to help them which it sounds as though there aren't in your country - ours will be entitled to benefits of some kind.
Yip, I got that from the other posts, but that's also why I decided to make such a long post about what it's like in my country. It's so different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Honestly, I don't know if there are any agencies like that in South Africa, but if there are, my not knowing of them just shows that it's not a prevalent thing.
It's a sad situation, the amount of poor people we have. That's why I feel South Africans who have are obligated to give or do what they can. We might have a lot of people living below the bread line, but we also have a decent amount of people who are financially able to help, if only a little.
It would also help if our government managed itself and the country's financial matters better, but I'd rather not go into politics ;)
Yes - we're lucky with the welfare state.Quote:
Originally Posted by TurquoiseSunset
I was thinking this morning, as I walked through town, about this discussion. I wondered can you disassociate your giving to beggars from the consequences of their misuse of the money? I don't mean it as a criticism, but wondered whether the act of giving is tainted if it is used for drugs or alcohol. Also, is ignorence a defence? I think the use if money may be something we don't as citizens think about enough. For exanple if giving is tainted, even in ignorence about its use, what about the use of money with unethical companies such as Nestle who exploit child labour?
This makes me wonder if charity is charitable when it is conditional. Do the conditions attached make it less worthy or more effective?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I am tired of the beggers. In the past few months, I've been approached more times than I have in the past few years. It's getting worse. The first couple of times, it didn't really bother me, but the woman who approached me with a piece of paper in her hand and asked if I was local before she asked me for money really pissed me off.
She had a backpack on, and was carrying a piece of paper and she held it up when she asked, "Are you from around here?"
My first thought was that she was lost and was looking for a specific place, and that the piece of paper she had in hand was a set of directions or something that she needed help with. So I was prepared to tell her whether or not I knew how to get where she was trying to go. But then she started to speak again, and she told me she had some kind of tumor in her head, and she suffered from seizures, and that she was 2 months pregnant, and then there were a few other ailments that she listed but by then I was ready to keep moving. If she had just stopped after tumor and seizures, I may have reached into my pocket for a wadded up dollar bill that I had. But she went on with her litany of ailments, and I decided she wasn't getting anything from me.
When she sensed that I was losing interest, she showed me the piece of paper which was an email print out listing some medications. Her story was that she went to the hospital where she was given the prescriptions and that she had then gone to Walgreens to get the prescription filled, and that Walgreens declined her card, and would not give her the needed medicine. So she needed me to give her money for her medicine. As she told her tale, I noticed her missing teeth, and the huge stain on the men's undershirt she was wearing and how she seemed so full of ****e. I told her I wasn't carrying cash and she promptly told me that there was an ATM around the corner, and we could go over together and I could get the $20 she needed. I said, "No I can't." and then she got real huffy, and said "Please???!!!" and I said no, and walked away, and she made some noise at me like I was being unreasonable.
Maybe she really did have all those issues, I don't know, but it didn't seem like it. Other beggers were happy with anything I could spare, but she wanted $20.00. That's a bit much. Why didn't she take that attitude with the hospital personnel who sent her on her way with a prescription she had no means of filling? Do they not advise about charity services? When I went to the dentist, the first thing they asked me before they did a thing was how was I going to pay for the parts that insurance didn't cover. They had a detailed breakdown of the charges for the services that I needed that they hadn't yet provided. So, is our hospital system that lousy that they would send her on her way without making sure that she could procure the needed medicine? I guess it must be. Or she's a liar. Or both A and B are correct.
A few days later I was walking downtown on my lunch break and I was approached by someone from Greenpeace who wanted donations and I would have been happy to do that, but they wanted my credit card number, right there down on the street. I called Greenpeace, and told them that I was approached by someone with a donation request, and she told me that yes, they had representatives canvasing the area, and she told me which city they were from, and it matched what the Greenpeace rep had told me, so it wasn't a hustle. But still, it irritated me just the same.
It's one thing to ask for spare change, or a dollar or something, but when they walk up to you on the street and want your credit card it changes things. I pull out the credit card on MY terms...
There are also homeless people who stand outside of where I work holding newspapers which cost $1. The newspapers are special publications related to homelessness. There is one man who always stations himself on a bench, and he will say "Have a Nice Day" to whoever walks past. I will buy his paper sometimes. There are a lot of homeless people selling newspapers. If it was just one or two people standing around outside, I would probably buy their papers regularly, but there are too many clustered in one area, and now when I see them I am uncomfortable. I'm sure they are not comfortable either though. There are some who just stand there and hold the papers up and I'm not really inclined to buy their papers. If I was homeless, that's probably what I would do. I wouldn't speak and therefore wouldn't sell any papers.
Seriously, someone post here. If nothing else, just say that yes, beggars are asking a bit much when they ask you to go to the ATM to withdraw money from your account to fund their sob story. Seriously.
Yes, beggars are asking a bit much when they ask you to go to the ATM to withdraw money from your account to fund their sob story.
Oh yeah, that's way over the top behavior. Giving someone some pocket change and letting somebody follow you to a cash machine are in whole other categories. Warning flags ought to be going up all over the place if you've lost your free will and are starting to feel obligated. But then that's how begging works, isn't it? That's their shtick. Bonafide charities do it too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalot
Seems to me, beggars are good at bringing you in quickly. They have to. They only have a few seconds to make their case while you're walking by on the street, or sitting at a stoplight, or standing on the sidewalk looking at all the cool stuff in the window. They're also good at picking out their mark: out-of-towners, charity-minded folks, young guys who don't want to look like a schmuck in front of their girl. Anyway, opening lines are almost always designed to draw you out and let them in:
"Hey, where you from?"
Big smile, "Oh, I'm from a little town near Kenosha, Wisconsin. Where're you from, friend?"
- You might as well break out you're checkbook. Better, just cut to the chase:
"Sorry, man, I'm broke." and keep on walking.
"Hey, can I ask you question?"
"Why sure. Ask away. You got questions, I got answers."
-You might as well just give her your pin number. Better:
"You just did. What's your next question?" (now she's playing you're game)
"Hey, can you do me a favor?"
"Of course, Jesus always said..."
-You've probably got yourself a new roommate at this point. Better:
"Well now, that all depends on what it is that you want." (Sets you up to easily say, "Sorry. No can do, Todd."
Anyway, they're good at catching you off guard. Practice makes perfect. Just go out and have some fun - but try not to get yourself knifed.
Why bother re-iterating what Emerson already articulated perfectly?
"There is a class of persons to whom by all spiritual affinity I am bought and sold; for them I will go to prison, if need be; but your miscellaneous popular charities; the education at college of fools; the building of meeting-houses to the vain end to which many now stand; alms to sots; and the thousandfold Relief Societies; — though I confess with shame I sometimes succumb and give the dollar, it is a wicked dollar which by and by I shall have the manhood to withhold."
J
I have to disagree with Emerson, and say that I am more in agreement with TurquoiseSunset.
I found these statistics:
http://www.endhomelessness.org/pages...f_homelessness
(yes, it is a charitable organization, but don't feel obligated to give :))
Homelessness and poverty are on the rise in the United States. I think each individual person will have to decide for themselves if they want to give money to the individual beggar in front of them. I think all of us are savvy enough at this point to know that there is a probability that the person, be it adult or child, who is asking is scamming us to a degree. Could it be said, Sancho, that that child was not in dire need? Even if she's working for the man? What kind of a life is that? I would hardly have begrudged her an ice cream cone for her trouble, even while recognizing that she probably gets a meal from somewhere. That's probably all she gets. What about a home, parents who can keep her off the streets, an education, a future? I think it's unlikely she has those or even the chance of any of them.
That's one thing I cordially dislike about the United States, this attitude toward the poor. That they are poor because they are lazy. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have worked in an inner city school for many years. The reasons for poverty and the failure of schools to help their students climb out of said poverty are complex and not easily understood, not least by those running these schools and districts. It was painful to watch them do all the wrong things and blame all the wrong people.
Perhaps we could deepen the discussion by questioning the root causes of poverty in these various societies and what could be done to end it or at least lessen its effects.
The thing is, giving a dollar to a beggar says more about the character of the person who is giving it than it does to alleviate the problem of poverty. Even helping out at a soup kitchen doesn't really do anything to solve the problem. Each situation is going to be different and will possibly call for a different response. You are correct, Shalot, to be cautious about giving out your credit card number. I can think of no occasion when I would do that.
So give a dollar, or don't-if you choose to do so, you will have stopped for only the briefest moment any pain or hunger that person is feeling. It will not stop the cold, it will not stop the gnawing desire for a drug or a drink or the pain of a rotting tooth or frostbitten toes.
But if you want to give, it might make both of you feel better about the human condition, if only for a moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalot
:nopity:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalot
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Volya
I do think charities and voluntary organizations are underestimated, though. I've personally witnessed the substantial material aid, as well as counselling, that charities give to homeless people in my city who otherwise would have been long dead or, at least, much worse off. Charities nowadays don't simply give temporary handouts but help with overcoming addictions, finding jobs, providing a (relatively) safe place to stay and of course serving meals. Clearly charities aren't the solution to homelessness and poverty, but they are a lot more proactive than the state in providing concrete aid. I recognize many charities receive quite a bit of their funding from municipalities, but this is often scarce and from what I understand most organizations rely on donations. They also run on volunteer service -- administrators, while employees, get extraordinarily meagre salaries -- so "helping out" actually helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by qimissung
That said, I agree with your broader point that perceptions of poverty as individual moral failures do nothing to devise and carry out concrete solutions. What I find troubling is not just these perceptions, which are rampant in Canada as well, but the supererogatory attitude taken towards solving these issues. Peter Singer said in a famous essay, which I wholly agree with, that any society serious about tackling poverty cannot approach it as an option -- it requires a collective obligation. So I'll stress, once again, that charities aren't the solution given their private nature, although they are doing observable good.