Drugs related discussion

^Yeah, I was just wondering where Bien went this morning.

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Originally Posted by Calidore

...and Crazy Drugs (crystal meth, crack, PCP).

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Haha, I like that classification.

It surprises me that you don't know what ecstacy is, maybe it's newish. Have you ever heard of the whole "Rave" scene (lame, glowsticks, techno music, pacifiers, neon colors, ecstacy {called "E," or "X" sometimes}, sweaty people, ect.)?

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/p...44/th_rave.gif

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

I've heard it referred to as delerium tremens. I haven't heard the term for a while so i thought it had dropped out of use - but there are links to it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001771/

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That sounds horrible. It's like what I've read about heroin withdrawal, except with hallucinations and siezures - so really, much worse than heroin withdrawal.

Your mention of techno/rave music made me think of this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AyRDDOpKaLM

Which came first, the music or the drugs? It's like the chicken and the egg question, only more confounding.

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Originally Posted by Calidore

I don't like the idea of my brain chemistry being altered to where I think and behave differently, or worse, where what I perceive with my senses isn't what's really there.

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I take it you are also adverse to falling in love then ?

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

It surprises me that you don't know what ecstacy is, maybe it's newish. Have you ever heard of the whole "Rave" scene (lame, glowsticks, techno music, pacifiers, neon colors, ecstacy {called "E," or "X" sometimes}, sweaty people, ect.)?

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I've heard of raves--once in a while the papers would have a story about the police breaking up a rave party in a loft or rented-out club, or a kid overdosing in one.

As for ecstasy, no, I don't know if it's a hallucinogen or amphetamine-type thing or what. (That reminds me of a fifth category--do people even take uppers and downers anymore, or have they been obsoleted by newer and better stuff?)

What little rave music I've heard doesn't do much for me, either. Too much energy, not enough actual music. However, I do have to make an exception for "Speed" by a couple of local guys working as Alpha Team (20 years ago! Ack!). It's a most excellent rave-style remix of the Speed Racer cartoon theme, with sound effects and dialogue clips thrown in. It may help if you're old enough to have watched the cartoon religiously after school, as I did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyhyPLWJDFY

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Originally Posted by Alexander III

I take it you are also adverse to falling in love then ?

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Just a bit different.

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Originally Posted by Calidore

As for ecstasy, no, I don't know if it's a hallucinogen or amphetamine-type thing or what.

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It's like a feel-good sensory type drug. The chemicals released are the same as those released when humans feel that sort of excited-love feeling. You overheat get dehydrated quickly though, I think people actually dry out to death sometimes, and you grind your teeth and clench your jaw which would explain the need for pacifiers.

Apparently the next day you feel the exact opposite, really depressed. I've never taken ecstasy, it's too... touchey-feely for me. Also, it's practically synonymous with raves, which is an atmosphere I'd rather be kicked in the head than experience.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

It's like a feel-good sensory type drug. The chemicals released are the same as those released when humans feel that sort of excited-love feeling. You overheat get dehydrated quickly though, I think people actually dry out to death sometimes, and you grind your teeth and clench your jaw which would explain the need for pacifiers.

Apparently the next day you feel the exact opposite, really depressed. I've never taken ecstasy, it's too... touchey-feely for me. Also, it's practically synonymous with raves, which is an atmosphere I'd rather be kicked in the head than experience.

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Pacifiers? Good grief.

So they're going into an environment that's high-energy + crowded = hot and stuffy and taking a drug that overheats and dehydrates them more rather than, say, Gatorade. And likely adding alcohol (more dehydration) on top to boot. I can see where that would lead to medical issues.

And having to chomp on pacifiers, and depressive crashing + dehydration hangover the next day, and if someone were to ask why they do it, they'd say, "It's fun."

I don't like the thought of not being in control of myself so I don't take drugs. It's enough that once in a while, for some unexplained reason I get drunk and think 'oh crap I shouldn't have done that'

I'll tell you something that you've probably never heard anyone say before and will never hear anyone say again, but, I've never tried drugs and I regret it. I don't mean heroin, cocaine, etc., I'm talking about psychedelic stuff like LSD, mushrooms, peyote or even marijuana. I'm 30 now with a full time job and responsibilities, thus too old to begin experimenting, so my window has really passed. Perhaps the ideals of them as mind expanding are BS, perhaps not. Thing is, I'll never know.

So, is there a list most of us agree on?

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

It's like a feel-good sensory type drug. The chemicals released are the same as those released when humans feel that sort of excited-love feeling. You overheat get dehydrated quickly though, I think people actually dry out to death sometimes, and you grind your teeth and clench your jaw which would explain the need for pacifiers.

Apparently the next day you feel the exact opposite, really depressed. I've never taken ecstasy, it's too... touchey-feely for me. Also, it's practically synonymous with raves, which is an atmosphere I'd rather be kicked in the head than experience.

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What you're likely thinking of are the designer pills that contain impurities. This is "ecstasy," and it's safe to call it a club drug given the energizing effects of the caffeine, meth, cocaine, ketamine and other stuff that's thrown in. The pure version of ecstasy, MDMA, doesn't necessarily lead to the negative side effects you describe (except for jaw-clenching, which pretty much always happens).

I've heard of MDMA users waking up the next day feeling the opposite of what you describe -- they feel refreshed, happier and calmer. Of course, this only applies to occasional users. As for dehydration, it is generally a consequence of over-exertion on the dance floor, not the drug itself. MDMA makes users feel impervious to heat and exhaustion; in other words, raves are probably the most dangerous place to do it. Although compared to the death rates caused by other stimulants, it's relatively safe even in a rave environment.

MDMA originated with the '80s dance club scene, but it's no longer exclusively associated with dancing and raves. It is often approached like a hallucinogen, taken in comfortable environments with close friends. It has been used to treat post-traumatic stress disorder with a fairly high success rate in just a single dosage combined with psychotherapy. So long as it's taken in moderation, and it's pure (can't stress this enough), it can be safe and psychologically useful.

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Originally Posted by metal134

I'll tell you something that you've probably never heard anyone say before and will never hear anyone say again, but, I've never tried drugs and I regret it. I don't mean heroin, cocaine, etc., I'm talking about psychedelic stuff like LSD, mushrooms, peyote or even marijuana. I'm 30 now with a full time job and responsibilities, thus too old to begin experimenting, so my window has really passed. Perhaps the ideals of them as mind expanding are BS, perhaps not. Thing is, I'll never know.

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It may give the illusion of mind expansion (if you're lucky), but all it is is mind alteration. Bottom line, you're introducing foreign chemicals into your brain with the intent of screwing with the delicate chemical processes already taking place there. No reason to regret not doing that.

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Originally Posted by metal134

I'll tell you something that you've probably never heard anyone say before and will never hear anyone say again, but, I've never tried drugs and I regret it. I don't mean heroin, cocaine, etc., I'm talking about psychedelic stuff like LSD, mushrooms, peyote or even marijuana. I'm 30 now with a full time job and responsibilities, thus too old to begin experimenting, so my window has really passed. Perhaps the ideals of them as mind expanding are BS, perhaps not. Thing is, I'll never know.

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I am in the same boat, metal, though I'm still 25 and, at the moment, don't have many responsibilities, so the window of opportunity hasn't completely closed. :D

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Originally Posted by Calidore

Pacifiers? Good grief.

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Haha, I thought you'd like that.

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Originally Posted by Calidore

And having to chomp on pacifiers, and depressive crashing + dehydration hangover the next day, and if someone were to ask why they do it, they'd say, "It's fun."

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Well, the feeling can't be overrated. You know how desperate some people are for love, well, here's a little pill that almost exactly simulates love. *shrug* I can understand the allure. My lame friend Tom likes raves, he says there's a lot of bottled water involved anyway.

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Originally Posted by Shevek

As for dehydration, it is generally a consequence of over-exertion on the dance floor, not the drug itself. MDMA makes users feel impervious to heat and exhaustion; in other words, raves are probably the most dangerous place to do it. Although compared to the death rates caused by other stimulants, it's relatively safe even in a rave environment.

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Ahh, interesting. So it's not that the drug is making them dehydrated, it's that they're dehydrated and the drug is preventing them from becoming aware of it.

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Originally Posted by Shevek

MDMA originated with the '80s dance club scene, but it's no longer exclusively associated with dancing and raves. It is often approached like a hallucinogen, taken in comfortable environments with close friends. It has been used to treat post-traumatic stress disorder with a fairly high success rate in just a single dosage combined with psychotherapy. So long as it's taken in moderation, and it's pure (can't stress this enough), it can be safe and psychologically useful.

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As long as I don't have to go to a techno dance club, and if I could just not risk becomming dehydrated and passing out and being gang-raped by neon scene kids, I would try it.

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Originally Posted by Calidore

It may give the illusion of mind expansion (if you're lucky), but all it is is mind alteration.

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No, it's really true that sometimes you have an experience with drugs that can change your mind forever, and I don't mean physically. You can realize things that stick with you forever, or you can see things that start to become common motifs or which carry a strong emotional association (good or bad, that's the risk) throughout your entire life, and then once you're sober you find that your way of thinking has changed forever, in big or small ways. My boyfriend tried salvia once (legal in Canada) and he'll never think about squirrels the same way ever again. Unless you've experienced that sort of thing you won't get it, in the same way you can't describe what love is to a person who's never experienced it, or you can't describe a color to someone who's color blind.

I use marijuana to root out fears (I don't smoke more than once/week, I'd have trouble studying if I did and also it would be pointless since it would stop working). I think most people carry this sort of tension, this anxiety, around with them. With marijuana, these fears bubble to the surface, you can't repress them. You can distract away from them by watching a movie or listening to music or something which is what most people do when thye're high, but I choose to aknowledge my feelings of unsettlement, unravel them. I smoke when I'm feeling anxious and I don't know what's bothering me, and then once I'm high I realize what it is that's making me anxious, then I unravel that fear, and by conciously examining my worries they become trivial. When I'm sober, I find that I'm no longer worried about it and my outlook is just a little bit clearer.

People have to do drugs at the after-hour clubs and raves, because you can't drink at them. Imagine being sober in one of those hell holes?

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

People have to do drugs at the after-hour clubs and raves, because you can't drink at them. Imagine being sober in one of those hell holes?

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Or you simply do not go to those "hell holes"?

;)

I smoke like a chimney - cigarettes. I am a staunch abstainer from drugs of all kind. I drink occasionally.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

No, it's really true that sometimes you have an experience with drugs that can change your mind forever, and I don't mean physically. You can realize things that stick with you forever, or you can see things that start to become common motifs or which carry a strong emotional association (good or bad, that's the risk) throughout your entire life, and then once you're sober you find that your way of thinking has changed forever, in big or small ways.

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That's the tricky thing: The brain and mind are so complex, and are frequently unable to tell the difference between illusion and reality if the illusion is presented well enough. So if an experience with a drug changes your perception, how would you know that your new perception is true and not a permanent holdover from your altered state?

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

My boyfriend tried salvia once (legal in Canada) and he'll never think about squirrels the same way ever again.

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Is that an example of the good or the bad? :)

I have a friend who also changed his opinion of squirrels, but he did it by cooking a few and realizing that 1) it takes several to make a decent meal and 2) the meat's not that good anyway. So his opinion changed from "possibly useful" to "completely useless."

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

I use marijuana to root out fears (I don't smoke more than once/week, I'd have trouble studying if I did and also it would be pointless since it would stop working). I think most people carry this sort of tension, this anxiety, around with them. With marijuana, these fears bubble to the surface, you can't repress them. You can distract away from them by watching a movie or listening to music or something which is what most people do when thye're high, but I choose to aknowledge my feelings of unsettlement, unravel them. I smoke when I'm feeling anxious and I don't know what's bothering me, and then once I'm high I realize what it is that's making me anxious, then I unravel that fear, and by conciously examining my worries they become trivial. When I'm sober, I find that I'm no longer worried about it and my outlook is just a little bit clearer.

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That's probably the clearest example I've ever been given on how pot can be used in a positive fashion. I still don't like being around people who are high, though. They're not changed as such, just off somehow, like the pod people in Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Clarification: That applies to people high on pot. One night as a teenager I was with a friend and a few of his friends at the movies, and it turned out one of them had dropped acid. That not only ruined our whole night, but was one of the scariest damn things I've ever seen. He essentially had steel shutters slammed down between all of his senses and the real world and was a slave to whatever movie was playing in his mind. Reality, however, doesn't get out of your way if you can't perceive it.

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Originally Posted by Calidore

It may give the illusion of mind expansion (if you're lucky), but all it is is mind alteration. Bottom line, you're introducing foreign chemicals into your brain with the intent of screwing with the delicate chemical processes already taking place there. No reason to regret not doing that.

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Maybe that's true and maybe it isn't. But I would prefer to have found out for myself.

It's worth noting that most drugs work by bulking up on the drugs that are already in our body, dope gets you high because it's already in you and your brain knows to react to it, too much of it is too much of it. So it's not really adding foreign chemicals, because if the drug wasn't already in you it wouldn't do anything to you. Maybe kill, or make you poop a bunch, but most likely won't get you any sort of high.

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Originally Posted by metal134

Maybe that's true and maybe it isn't. But I would prefer to have found out for myself.

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Well if you're 30 and have a full-time job, responsibilities, etc you can still try pot at night. It's not too late. The effects will last 4-6 hours max. Try marijuana or hashish first. You can experiment with LSD, mushrooms, ecstasy, etc. on the weekends, but I wouldn't recommend it.

It does have the ability to expand your consciousness. This is almost always a good thing, but bad trips are possible at any age. The thing is, you will probably never be quite the same, for better or worse. To me, it's worth it, but sometimes I wish I would have never tried drugs. You can't put the genie back in the bottle once you've done it.

Meditation and exercise can get you as high as most drugs.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

Meditation and exercise can get you as high as most drugs.

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True, but drugs are more satisfying. They satisfy one of the greatest desires in the hearts of men. What Freud labeled the Death Drive

Of course not all men have that desire, it depends on character.

^
That’s interesting. I’ve had the thought that dependence and addiction may be an actual desire for destruction, subconscious or not. I really don’t know. But it’s been something I’ve thought of from time to time, usually when somebody I know leaves this world through misadventure.

If you had guess, what percentage of addicts do you suppose are slowly and intentionally committing suicide?

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Originally Posted by Sancho

^
That’s interesting. I’ve had the thought that dependence and addiction may be an actual desire for destruction, subconscious or not. I really don’t know. But it’s been something I’ve thought of from time to time, usually when somebody I know leaves this world through misadventure.

If you had guess, what percentage of addicts do you suppose are slowly and intentionally committing suicide?

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I think the same thing has been said about alcoholism - a slow suicide, though I'm not saying it's true, just interesting.

.............

I need a list that has no more than 10 options. Can we agree on one?

^Then the question would have to specify frequency. Like, "which of the following have you tried" to be really general, or "which of the following have you used in the past year," or even "which of the following do you use at least once/month." I guess it would have to be:

-tobacco
-alcohol
-marijuana
-prescription sedatives
-cocaine
-ecstasy
-natural hallucinagens (eg. mushrooms, peyote)
-synthetic hallucinogens (eg. LSD)
-opiates (eg. heroin, morphine)
-amphetamines (eg. speed)

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Originally Posted by Calidore

I still don't like being around people who are high, though. They're not changed as such, just off somehow, like the pod people in Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

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Haha, it sucks for the person who's high too, because they know you think there's something off about them, and that freaks them out. That's why being high around other people is terrible.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

I've heard it referred to as delerium tremens. I haven't heard the term for a while so i thought it had dropped out of use - but there are links to it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001771/

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Good link, explains so much.
Anyone ever noticed how quickly alcohol resistance decreases. You spend ages building it up, think your all good for ages and you have six standard serves and youre drunk and your head's like what is this?! I don't get drunk, pfft, I must just be hungry.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

I think the same thing has been said about alcoholism - a slow suicide, though I'm not saying it's true, just interesting.

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But you could argue that about anything, salty food, living in a city, being left handed. Practically everything we do leads to an earlier death. Are we all slowly killing ourselves by living?

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Originally Posted by Dina12

But you could argue that about anything, salty food, living in a city, being left handed. Practically everything we do leads to an earlier death. Are we all slowly killing ourselves by living?

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Yes, life kills you in a general sense. Except that there are some choices which hasten it more than others such as drinking. You also hear of people drinking themselves to death, but not of people salting themselves into oblivion.:D

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Yes, life kills you in a general sense. Except that there are some choices which hasten it more than others such as drinking. You also hear of people drinking themselves to death, but not of people salting themselves into oblivion.:D

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Aside from the Slug People that is. They exist, it's the truth. I've seen 'em :arf:

I would say that excess of salty foods might have something to do with one of our number one killers, heart attacks.

Alcohol related deaths are one of the top deaths too, some times people salt their beers. That's something. I've used mexican food spices lol wasn't half bad.

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Originally Posted by Revolte

Aside from the Slug People that is. They exist, it's the truth. I've seen 'em :arf:

I would say that excess of salty foods might have something to do with one of our number one killers, heart attacks.

Alcohol related deaths are one of the top deaths too, some times people salt their beers. That's something. I've used mexican food spices lol wasn't half bad.

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:D
Definately - but the consumption has been hidden by producers rather than it being added to by saly users.

The number of alcohol related deaths has gone up here in the UK, and has led to minimum pricing in Scotland where the problem is greater. It's widely blamed upon the accessibility of cheap booze from Supermarkets. It's not a new problem though as gin was blamd for many social ills in the 18th century, and could be cheaply produced.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

:D
Definately - but the consumption has been hidden by producers rather than it being added to by saly users.

The number of alcohol related deaths has gone up here in the UK, and has led to minimum pricing in Scotland where the problem is greater. It's widely blamed upon the accessibility of cheap booze from Supermarkets. It's not a new problem though as gin was blamd for many social ills in the 18th century, and could be cheaply produced.

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Yep. Found it! William Hogarth extolling the virtues of beer over that demon gin, London, circa 1751:

Gin Lane:
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/a...no/GinLane.jpg


Beer Street
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/a...BeerStreet.jpg

My drug of choice is coffee.

IlikecoffeeIdon’thaveaproblemwithitIcanhandleitbut IlikecoffeecoffeeCOFFEEyeahbabygimmesomemoreofthat wonderfulbeanjitteryjitteryjitteryJoeColombianArab icaFrenchroastItalianroastIdon’tcarejustfillupmymu gandmakeitsnappyI’minahurrythat’sagoodfellow

Coffee is good

That's the one Sancho.

I've reduced my coffee intake this year due to the effects of the strong stuff. I still drink instant though haha.

One of the bad things about drugs is of course the difficult social position it puts people in. Though they choose the route, they were often led on by people who, perhaps a bit older with a bit more experience, seem to have all the answers and the safeguards. These people are really not your friend. I've met a few charming, friendly and fun drug people who will quite happily accommodate you on their ship - whether it sinks or floats.

You can see the young addicts around any town - scruffy and unkempt with that odd and desperate air about them. The very things that will encourage a person onto a better life - a stable partner and responsibilities of some kind - are often closed. They have to do it all themselves then. Difficult.

Yes, you pick up 'speed' as you go downhill...

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Originally Posted by Delta40

Yes, you pick up 'speed' as you go downhill...

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Excellent. :hurray:

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Originally Posted by Delta40

Yes, you pick up 'speed' as you go downhill...

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Yes - brilliant. :lol:

I've been having this thought the entire time, but...

Um, ok, I'll try to put it as simple as I can. Drinking is bad, so is drugs, smoking and all the other wacky other stuff. People who do those things actually know (and probably got sick of hearing others telling them) how bad they 'can' get if they go on. But they still go on, why?

I've gone along the latest posts about the desire of Death, but that doesn't really give me a satisfying answer. If you're so into Death, why use the slow methods? Just stick a knife in your brain, heart or eye and be done with it. You'll be meeting your sweet Death faster that way.

Ok, jokes aside (horrible ones at that,) why do we keep consuming those things? It's like we know the bad effects but find pleasure in them.

I've had this thought about the human race being rotten, but this is outrageous. =/

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Originally Posted by Monamy

I've been having this thought the entire time, but...

Um, ok, I'll try to put it as simple as I can. Drinking is bad, so is drugs, smoking and all the other wacky other stuff. People who do those things actually know (and probably got sick of hearing others telling them) how bad they 'can' get if they go on. But they still go on, why?

I've gone along the latest posts about the desire of Death, but that doesn't really give me a satisfying answer. If you're so into Death, why use the slow methods? Just stick a knife in your brain, heart or eye and be done with it. You'll be meeting your sweet Death faster that way.

Ok, jokes aside (horrible ones at that,) why do we keep consuming those things? It's like we know the bad effects but find pleasure in them.

I've had this thought about the human race being rotten, but this is outrageous. =/

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Because addiction simply doesn't have an off switch.

Especially with harder drugs like coke. It's a nice thought, but it takes at least a year after use for an addict's natural supply of dopamine to return. Dopamine being the reason you can be happy.

Most addicts don't do drugs to get high, or to feel good. But to feel normal, and really to be normal. Because of how drugs work, it replaces the natural supply of those drugs with a third party source in which you become dependent on.

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Originally Posted by Monamy

I've been having this thought the entire time, but...

Um, ok, I'll try to put it as simple as I can. Drinking is bad, so is drugs, smoking and all the other wacky other stuff. People who do those things actually know (and probably got sick of hearing others telling them) how bad they 'can' get if they go on. But they still go on, why?

I've gone along the latest posts about the desire of Death, but that doesn't really give me a satisfying answer. If you're so into Death, why use the slow methods? Just stick a knife in your brain, heart or eye and be done with it. You'll be meeting your sweet Death faster that way.

Ok, jokes aside (horrible ones at that,) why do we keep consuming those things? It's like we know the bad effects but find pleasure in them.

I've had this thought about the human race being rotten, but this is outrageous. =/

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You know there's a distinction between addiction and recreation, right?