Prostitution: English major styles

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Originally Posted by Ecurb

Obviously Billl is correct that the student learns more from writing an essay than from plagiarizing it. I don’t deny that. But the options aren’t always writing a decent essay or plagiarizing one. They might be plagiarizing an essay or failing to turn one in, and having the teacher embarrass you in front of the class. Some kids might face a beating at home if they don’t get a “C”. There are all sorts of excuses for cheating that I see as reasonable. Maybe a good student has had some personal crisis and wants to slide by, just this once. Minor indiscretions, that harm nobody and protect some child from emotional or physical harm, don’t seem so bad to me.

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You have brought very good points. I agree that there are many reasons why students choose to plagiarize. The educational system is far from being perfect. There are students who don’t have any interest in literature and writing but they are great in math or physics, or perhaps, they will be a good computer programmer, doctor, or electrician. But they have to finish high school.
Life is not black or white.

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Originally Posted by Jack of Hearts

That's right. Jack of Hearts wasn't preparing discourse for the overarching argument, and has no desire to (having largely ignored it- which to disdain more, academia or the exchanges that imitate it?).
J

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If you can't be bothered to engage in the discussion, can't you just plagiarize something? At least that way, we'd keep the communication flowing.

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Originally Posted by Ecurb

If you can't be bothered to engage in the discussion, can't you just plagiarize something? At least that way, we'd keep the communication flowing.

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Haha, classic.

But seriously, must bow out now. There are others interested in having the discussion, even if this reader is not. He just came in to empathize with and express something regarding qimissung's post. And apparently give bill street cred for some reason.






J

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Originally Posted by Ecurb

How about turning it over to some sophisticated, generous, brilliant cheater? How would that make you feel?

In addition, I think the "If I write something I want it to be mine" is silly. Surely you want people to READ what you've written, and when they do the words are no longer "yours". They are shared by the author and the reader.

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Yes, Ecurb, I do understand the interchange between writer and reader-but that's not what this thread is about. The only question being discussed is that of writing something in order to sell it to someone who plans to say they wrote it. Under those circumstances my answer stands.

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Originally Posted by ftil

LOL! It sounds that you don’t consider the possibility that somebody can use your idea and take to the highs you can’t imagine. I guess everything goes back to self confidence. If we trust ourselves that we we create more and better ….we can share our ideas with an open heart.

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Well, of course I would prefer to be the one taking an idea to highs heretofore unimagined, but back to the main point...

Have you ever seen the movie "Finding Forrester"? In it a young man is given the first couple of paragraphs of a novel (it's given to him by the author) and from that he proceeds to write a short story (I think) which wins a prize. He is then accused of plagerism. It all ends well, but the point I am making is the generosity of the author in sharing his work with the novice writer and what the young writer then did with it.

A lot of rap music nowadays also "sample" or take a portion of other musicians music to create something of their own.

All art builds on other existing art. Nothing is created in a vacuum. I get that-and thrive on it as an artist (of sorts).

Again, this thread is not about that. It is about someone who, with the permission of another, passes off their work as his/hers. Not the same thing at all. I mainly object because of the sheer laziness of it all. To even suggest that it is remotely similar in nature to the act of creation is almost sacreligious to me.

Billl, your rebuttal was a thing of beauty, and I would like to thank you and Jack of Hearts for your show of support. I have always depended on the kindness of strangers, as Blanche Dubois once said. :)

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Originally Posted by qimissung

Y



Well, of course I would prefer to be the one taking an idea to highs heretofore unimagined, but back to the main point...

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You can relax then. If somebody will take your idea….you will create a better one.

My last point is that we didn’t have these rules, for example, 100 years ago. They didn’t need that. Humans don’t change that much. Only rules that….we may accept without questioning.

As Alan Watts said,
“Insecure society are the most intolerant….So unsure of the validity of their game rules. Everybody must play the rule. We become more conformist………..Everybody is equally inferior”. :p

I couldn't do it -- it completely undermines educational legitimacy. I mean, one of my jobs as a teacher is to know (as best I can) what it is that students know. This basic premise is the bedrock of grade assessment and value.

If we think the “grade assessment and value” system a worthy one, you are correct. However, as I pointed out, not all students DO think that the teacher’s “grade assessment” is a legitimate method of rating, categorizing, and placing them in tracts. I have sympathy for these opinions.

That being the case, qimissung I’m not sure the “sheer laziness” of copying merits your objections. If Mozart copied a Physics Lab report, because he was too busy writing symphonies to bother with writing boring physics lab reports, but needed to pass the class or get punished, we can hardly think him “lazy”. Rather than laziness, it’s simply a matter of the student having different priorities from the teachers. I’ll grant that in most cases the priority might be playing baseball, or watching movies, or making out with one’s girlfriend rather than writing symphonies – but I sympathize with someone who would rather play baseball than write an English essay. There was a time – long before my participation at Lit Forum – where that would have been true of me.

Do it. Writing essays is pretty much the only skill college gives us English majors so if there's an opportunity to make money doing it, take it.

You're officially only writing it so they can use it as a model, so on its face it's legit. If they turn it in as their own then you shouldn't be responsible.

Don't do it, though, if you're still in school too because you might get in trouble for that. :)

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Originally Posted by Ecurb

If we think the “grade assessment and value” system a worthy one, you are correct. However, as I pointed out, not all students DO think that the teacher’s “grade assessment” is a legitimate method of rating, categorizing, and placing them in tracts. I have sympathy for these opinions.

That being the case, qimissung I’m not sure the “sheer laziness” of copying merits your objections. If Mozart copied a Physics Lab report, because he was too busy writing symphonies to bother with writing boring physics lab reports, but needed to pass the class or get punished, we can hardly think him “lazy”. Rather than laziness, it’s simply a matter of the student having different priorities from the teachers. I’ll grant that in most cases the priority might be playing baseball, or watching movies, or making out with one’s girlfriend rather than writing symphonies – but I sympathize with someone who would rather play baseball than write an English essay. There was a time – long before my participation at Lit Forum – where that would have been true of me.

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Hey, I took classes where I skated by, but I never cheated or passed off someone else's work as my own, so yes, they are lazy.

I was lazy, too, or not talented or interested, but mine at least was an honest laziness (if there is such a thing). :D