What does it mean to respect another's religious beliefs?

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

What's important to me is how people are. If they are tryin to shove it down my throat then I don't respect that. I don't find that much here though. In my work i mix with Atheists, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and we all get on. Belief doesn't come up, but there's a lot of respect because of how peple conduct themselves.

I work for the local authority teaching english and maths to many people from different countries as well as english people. I don't tend to find anyone broadcasting their beliefs either. It's just not an issue on an interpersonal level. I'm not sure ifthat's the same in other countries - there seems to be a bit more evangelism in the US. I would find that a bit annoying I think.

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Where I live there are billboards all along the highways that "advertise" Jesus. Last week I was traveling between Coeur d'Alene and Post Falls, which are towns just a few miles apart, but we drive the interstate. I saw at least 2 billboards which said "He will draw you closer to Him," and such. And these signs are in addition to the churches and the church signs.

A few weeks ago when my brother drove through Montana, he saw a giant billboard by the interstate that said, "In this valley, Jesus Christ is Lord."

There are no Muslims where I live. There are no Sikhs. I don't know what a Sikh is. I read in the newspaper that there are a few isolated Jews here, but I don't know where. Also, there are no blacks, no Asians or anything else. When I say there are NONE, I mean there are very, very few.

I don't want to sound prejudiced, because I'm not, but if I met some Muslims, I would be uneasy, because I've never met them before and all I know is stereotypes. But, again, I'm not prejudiced.

I've been in the Costco store in CdA a couple of times recently when the store was very busy. If you don't know what Costco is, it's a very large major store. When I look around in there, I don't see a single black person - I mean not one. You don't see a single Asian. Well, occasionally there could be one, but usually not. I saw one woman who looked perhaps Mexican. Occasionally you see a family that has come over from Washington for the day, that is something like Mexican. But it is rare to see a black family, ever. There are a couple of "token" blacks that work at Costco. I think, by law, they have to hire one or two - that law must be a federal law because it would never be a state law. The black persons who work at Costco don't live in Idaho, they live in Washington and commute. I think there is one apartment complex in this area where some blacks and Mexicans live, but for some reason, they aren't seen around town. Also, when you look around in the store, everyone is dressed similarly - now for summer, a lot of loose, casual clothes, such as shorts with a shirt hanging out.

The Aryan Nations have kept minorities out of this area. The A.N. has been suppressed a bit in recent years and they aren't so well organized anymore, since this area has been promoted as a resort. But the Aryan Nations are here. And there's no question but that the people of North Idaho appreciate the work that they continue to do.

I was speaking to one of the A.N. He's kind of an unofficial member, as many are. I asked him what's going on with them. He said there has been a plan on the table for some time to take back Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and I think Utah and part of Canada to make an all-white zone. He said, "We could do it easily because there's only a mud colored person here and there in these states." He said, "We could clear them out of Washington too, even though there are many minorities there, we could easily clear them out." He said, "We've got the guns!" The only problem he said is that the Conservative has become lazy. All the Conservative cares about now is his big screen television, his money and his stuff, and they've lost their b---s, (that word for male power.) ...Anyway, the attitudes are very much alive.

I hope this doesn't come out wrong. I'm not promoting this, I'm just stating facts.

There were some Buddha dolls in the bookstore and I thought they were cute. I thought about buying one and setting it in my window. I changed my mind because it would draw attention to me, and people would be averse to me. There could be areas in CdA where a Buddha doll could be set out, I don't know. The small towns are very intolerant.

And then crosses and flags go together. The American flag is EVERYWHERE.

Another thing is that any gay seeming boy here is forced to drop out of high school because they are brutally harassed in school.

I admit that I'm glad we don't have gang activity or graffiti - things like that. The minority gang members are the ones who shoot innocent bystanders in California or Chicago.

It's also good that we don't have wild nightclubs or strip clubs. For that, people go to the state-line, on the Idaho/Washington border.

Gee, as always I feel strange to post this, because I don't know how it looks. I don't want to be viewed as intolerant - it's just this is where I live, and to an extent I'm a product of it. I guess I'm a bit afraid of minorities because I've never known any. I'm also afraid of the Aryan Nations.

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Originally Posted by Vonny

I don't want to sound prejudiced, because I'm not, but if I met some Muslims, I would be uneasy, because I've never met them before and all I know is stereotypes. But, again, I'm not prejudiced.

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"....I would be uneasy , because I've never met them before and all I know is stereotypes..."

That's pretty much a dictionary definition of prejudice.

When I was in a small town on the Arkansas/Texas border, there was a very large billboard that proclaimed, "PRAISE JESUS OR BEWARE." I was a pilgrim in an unholy land.

Hi Vonny. The county in the UK that I'm from is very intolerant of minorities in parts - usually the smaller vilages, so I understand the atmosphere a bit. it's almost like a casual topic in some areas, though the big towns are multi racial. There are problems in certain other Northern towns too such as Blackburn. What there isn't is the big focus on Christianity.

I think attendance started dropping in church as soon as it was no longer an offence not to go. I always thought that WW1 had had a big influence on church attendance, but apparently numbers were seriously dropping in the 1850s here. People are nominally Christian usually - meaning they aren't in any meaningful sense of the word.

As for meeting people - people are people Christian, Sikh whatever. The vast majority are nice. You just have to get past appearances. I see and speak to many on a daily basis.

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Originally Posted by billl

"losing one's cool" and "getting angry" aren't necessarily the same thing. Maybe it would just be a semantic difference for some people. Anyhow, I can see "being angry" as being different from "losing one's cool" pretty clearly.

In Kill Bill, the protagonist has a huge store of anger within her, and it gives her strength. She doesn't flail around and act with uncontrollable lizard-brain rage at the sight of her enemies, however.

Many athletes are powered by such emotion, as well--Michael Jordan often got angry at opponents, and to see Asashoryu wrestle in his prime, just the look on his face (the complete disdain for his opponent) was enough to assure all who were watching that he would win.

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I think you are right about Kill Bill. The movies remind me of revenge fantasies now that I think about it.

I recall the scene when the protagonist removed the remaining eye from one of the bad guys (girl, in this case) with some special martial arts technique. The protagonist was cool, but not without anger. Her opponent just raged helplessly.

It seems that the movies were created to generate anger in the audience as well and then to have the protagonist resolve the anger through violence.

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Originally Posted by Vonny

There are no Muslims where I live. There are no Sikhs. I don't know what a Sikh is. I read in the newspaper that there are a few isolated Jews here, but I don't know where. Also, there are no blacks, no Asians or anything else. When I say there are NONE, I mean there are very, very few. ... I guess I'm a bit afraid of minorities because I've never known any. I'm also afraid of the Aryan Nations.

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I never knew about the Aryan Nations until you posted this and I searched it. ... It's frightening. But I understand why that would happen in your area; most immigrants don't think of settling in such places anyway. Usually they come to the cities of the East Coast, or on the West Coast, California or Seattle. Cities like Chicago and Pittsburgh are also pretty popular considerations. Once they've settled down more they might move into the suburbs but usually not too far from the city.

I don't think anyone can clear all the minorities out of Seattle and surrounding area that easily ...

About your view of minorities, I'd like to comment. I live in a suburban area of well-off immigrants, mostly Asian, and it's extremely secure. There's virtually no crime (excepting what some stupid high school students do, but I think there are students like that everywhere) and there are definitely no gangs or graffiti.

There's a stereotypical view that minorities in general bring crimes, gangs, etc. I think there has to be some financial factor as well. There aren't many places near me where there are only poor whites, so I don't know about that situation, but many areas with poor minorities tend to be more dangerous.

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Originally Posted by cl154576

I never knew about the Aryan Nations until you posted this and I searched it. ... It's frightening. But I understand why that would happen in your area; most immigrants don't think of settling in such places anyway. Usually they come to the cities of the East Coast, or on the West Coast, California or Seattle. Cities like Chicago and Pittsburgh are also pretty popular considerations. Once they've settled down more they might move into the suburbs but usually not too far from the city.

I don't think anyone can clear all the minorities out of Seattle and surrounding area that easily ...

About your view of minorities, I'd like to comment. I live in a suburban area of well-off immigrants, mostly Asian, and it's extremely secure. There's virtually no crime (excepting what some stupid high school students do, but I think there are students like that everywhere) and there are definitely no gangs or graffiti.

There's a stereotypical view that minorities in general bring crimes, gangs, etc. I think there has to be some financial factor as well. There aren't many places near me where there are only poor whites, so I don't know about that situation, but many areas with poor minorities tend to be more dangerous.

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Yes. During the UK riots, the Asian shopkeepers etc were the ones out on the street protecting properties in Birmingham.

@Yes/No (sorry should have used the quote, and now I have to go!) And anger is a useful and healthy part of the human emotional spectrum, the potential for "overdoing it with the anger" aside. The capacity for self-control can be thought of as a separate issue.





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Originally Posted by YesNo

I think you are right about Kill Bill. The movies remind me of revenge fantasies now that I think about it.

I recall the scene when the protagonist removed the remaining eye from one of the bad guys (girl, in this case) with some special martial arts technique. The protagonist was cool, but not without anger. Her opponent just raged helplessly.

It seems that the movies were created to generate anger in the audience as well and then to have the protagonist resolve the anger through violence.

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(There, I had time to go back and paste it in! I had posted and then realized there were several subsequent posts that I hadn't read yet.)

That's an interesting idea that the director might be trying to generate anger in the audience. For me, I remember rooting for the protagonist as she sought revenge, but I don't think I actually shared in the anger. It definitely might vary from person to person, though, or even within the same person on different viewings, who knows. There was a lot of action and violence--I think people like seeing the extreme stuff in movies kind of like we like riding a roller-coaster. We're safe, but still get to experience the thrills.

The "Aryan Nations" thing is a strange matter to bring up on this thread. I sincerely doubt they have any sway in Washington state at all. Really, they like to make their numbers sound larger than they are. There are a lot of racist people in the bible belt, but they aren't organized. They don't keep places like Mississippi or Louisiana from being populated mostly by African Americans. No one will drive ethnic diversity out of America. It's a stupid goal.

I've lived in California my whole life and I have never encountered gang violence. I have grown up near the border and seen what loving, hardworking families Mexican Americans have. There are black people here, Asians, islanders, Canadians, Germans, Irish etc. We all get along, for the most part. I never experienced racism once before traveling outside of California. I'm sure it happens in small, impoverished burbs, but it's certainly not the norm. It's the safest state I've been to. My issues with the increases in Christian extremism don't have anything to do with race or gangs. I don't want to get political, but gangs happen where poverty is rampant. Miami is a perfect example because there is no middle class. Immigrants arrive with nothing. No one helps them. There is crime. The South is full of poor people who vote down educational funding in favor of sending their kids to Christian schools or homeschooling them. The lack of a progressive educational system, coupled with poor parenting practices, is the biggest factor contributing to racism, so it can't all be blamed on religion.

To sum up, racism and religious extremism are two separate issues.

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Originally Posted by Arrowni
To respect someone beliefs you have to believe they are believable. If you cannot bring yourself to believe in belief, you'll not achieve real respect.

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I would argue that. Beliefs are just beliefs. We don’t respect people because they are entrenched in their belief system. We respect people who have integrity and honesty is integral part of having integrity. I have found very freeing reading Carl Rogers theory as he stated that psychologically healthy people have a flexible belief system. They don’t need to invest all energy to defend their belief system but they are open minded and change their beliefs when introduced with new information. Secondly, I have found quite interesting to see striking similarities in many religions. It doesn’t matter if it is Buddhism, Hindu, Egyptian, Greek/Roman, Gnostic, Muslim, Judaism, or Native American religion. We may ask question: why we argue? :ihih:

The "Aryan Nation" is nothing to be worried about. The "nation" in they're name is misleading. Something more accurate would be "Aryan Group of a Dozen or so White Trash, Beer Swilling Morons Who Have No Real Power and Like to Occasionally Hold Signs." I'd doubt if the actual number of people in the "Aryan Nation" goes higher than a 1000.

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Originally Posted by ftil

I would argue that. Beliefs are just beliefs. We don’t respect people because they are entrenched in their belief system. We respect people who have integrity and honesty is integral part of having integrity. I have found very freeing reading Carl Rogers theory as he stated that psychologically healthy people have a flexible belief system. They don’t need to invest all energy to defend their belief system but they are open minded and change their beliefs when introduced with new information. Secondly, I have found quite interesting to see striking similarities in many religions. It doesn’t matter if it is Buddhism, Hindu, Egyptian, Greek/Roman, Gnostic, Muslim, Judaism, or Native American religion. We may ask question: why we argue? :ihih:

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There are similarities, but also many differences. It's interesting to note that the three religions who are the most similar, and indeed come from related traditions - Christianity, Islam and Judaism - have had the most trouble between them.

I agree that a person who is openminded, whatever their personal belief, is likely to be less intolerant. True tolerance comes from accepting that people believe totally different things from oneslf, but that this doesn't matter in normal interpersonal relations.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

There are similarities, but also many differences. It's interesting to note that the three religions who are the most similar, and indeed come from related traditions - Christianity, Islam and Judaism - have had the most trouble between them.

I agree that a person who is openminded, whatever their personal belief, is likely to be less intolerant. True tolerance comes from accepting that people believe totally different things from oneslf, but that this doesn't matter in normal interpersonal relations.

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You have only mentioned Christianity, Islam, and Judaism and it is obvious. I have found fascinating to find similarities in Buddhism, Hindu, Greek, Egyptian, or Gnostic. I have found more similarities than differences. :brow:

There's quite a bit I'd like to say but my mind is a bit muddled.

First, if I am prejudiced, it's not something I'm proud of.

Mutatis, I can relate to how you felt on the AR/TX border. I don't feel any better about Christians than I do Muslims, it's just that Christians are more familiar.

Washington is a different world from Idaho, Montana, etc.

It's true that there are not a great number of Aryan Nation members, but the average person on the street here has those sentiments, at least to an extent. And when you go into a store here, you do not see minorities - just a fact. They aren't tolerated here. Now, the black man who works at Costco is treated well, but that's because everyone understands why he's there.

Anyway, this is just a point I want to make because it seems that here on the forum people don't believe this is true. I've become very aware of our difference from coming here and reading how people interact with Muslims and whatnot on a daily basis, and I'm in a different world. Varenne, I really don't know why we have no minorities, maybe we don't have all the poor people - yet, anyway.

In CdA there are a group of men who have a computer repair business, and they are all gay. They even have a picture of two of them getting married setting out. This is very new for here, and they are taking a chance. They couldn't do it in a small town.

I know of a woman who had a boyfriend from Tailand. I don't know how she met him, but he moved here. He was determined that he was going to stay here, but after he got beat up a couple of times, he moved to Hawaii. She also had a black boyfriend who came over from Washington for a weekend. He didn't understand why they couldn't go out together to a bar here. This woman is actually rather daring, but she said she told him, "You just don't understand!!" They did go out somewhere together, but she said that it was an uncomfortable evening.

Paul and cl15 - Thanks for your comments. I know that what you say is true. The truth is that I have a sort of social anxiety, and I avoid all kinds of people a lot, at least for the time being.

I know I'm not prejudiced at all towards Asians or Jews because I have studied them a lot -- and the Holocaust and Anne Frank is very heartbreaking. Also, I don't want to be political, but my heart goes out to, especially, the children of Iraq.

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Originally Posted by ftil

You have only mentioned Christianity, Islam, and Judaism and it is obvious. I have found fascinating to find similarities in Buddhism, Hindu, Greek, Egyptian, or Gnostic. I have found more similarities than differences. :brow:

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The point I was making is that there has been a lot of confict between the three religions that are closely related.

Of course there are similarities between religions, but on the one hand you have a religion with multiple Gods, Karma, rebirth, caste, meditation practice, Tantra and Yoga, - Hinduism, and on the other you have a monotheistic religion with a trinity, a single Holy Book, prophets, heaven/hell afterlife - christianity. I'm not whether your point is useful, but you could argue that there are as many differences as similarities.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

The point I was making is that there has been a lot of confict between the three religions that are closely related.

Of course there are similarities between religions, but on the one hand you have a religion with multiple Gods, Karma, rebirth, caste, meditation practice, Tantra and Yoga, - Hinduism, and on the other you have a monotheistic religion with a trinity, a single Holy Book, prophets, heaven/hell afterlife - christianity. I'm not whether your point is useful, but you could argue that there are as many differences as similarities.

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Not to mention there are far more differences than there are similarities. The Creation Myths of many of those different religions and cultures, even when sharing some similar elements, are extremely different in their meanings and emphasis. Even between Judaism and Christianity there are huge differences.

Just want to add something because I feel that my comments on this thread have come out wrong, as is my habit.

I know that I'm not prejudiced against any race or religion. The only thing I want to avoid is anyone who could be threatening - any kind of gang activity - no matter who they are.

A lot of people today who call themselves Christians are bullies. And then with Muslims, I fear some retalliation, and then I guess there is fear of the unknown, which I have regarding just about everything that is unknown.

And then Buddhism makes a lot of sense to me, though there is no group of Buddhists to meet with where I live. But I like how Buddhists are non-aggressive.

It isn't that I don't like these different kinds of people, it's just that I don't know them, and because of my personal anxiety problem, it's difficult for me to venture out to meet them, (which would also mean going to Washington, and I'd need a whole lot of Xanax to really do that.)

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Originally Posted by Vonny

Just want to add something because I feel that my comments on this thread have come out wrong, as is my habit.

I know that I'm not prejudiced against any race or religion. The only thing I want to avoid is anyone who could be threatening - any kind of gang activity - no matter who they are.

A lot of people today who call themselves Christians are bullies. And then with Muslims, I fear some retalliation, and then I guess there is fear of the unknown, which I have regarding just about everything that is unknown.

And then Buddhism makes a lot of sense to me, though there is no group of Buddhists to meet with where I live. But I like how Buddhists are non-aggressive.

It isn't that I don't like these different kinds of people, it's just that I don't know them, and because of my personal anxiety problem, it's difficult for me to venture out to meet them, (which would also mean going to Washington, and I'd need a whole lot of Xanax to really do that.)

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Off post topic sorry. However, there is something about Vonny that just makes me want to hug her!!!:biggrin5:

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

The point I was making is that there has been a lot of confict between the three religions that are closely related.

Of course there are similarities between religions, but on the one hand you have a religion with multiple Gods, Karma, rebirth, caste, meditation practice, Tantra and Yoga, - Hinduism, and on the other you have a monotheistic religion with a trinity, a single Holy Book, prophets, heaven/hell afterlife - christianity. I'm not whether your point is useful, but you could argue that there are as many differences as similarities.

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My point is that if people see similarities they may not want to fight with each other but dance and laugh together. People argue when they see differences and if they can’t accept it but fight to death to defend their beliefs. On the basic level we see that catholic religion is different that Buddhism,or Hindu is different than Egyptian religion, or Gnostic is different that Greek/Roman. But when we look deeper we may be quite surprised. :ihih:

Half full/half empty. The similarities and differences are both there; which people focus on, and what they do about it, is an indicator of character, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Neely

Off post topic sorry. However, there is something about Vonny that just makes me want to hug her!!!:biggrin5:

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Off topic one last time on this thread. :)

Thank you Neely, you're so sweet! For some reason I felt my self-esteem plummeting all afternoon after writing all this drivel that simply came out wrong, and then I didn't know how to fix it. You made me feel better!

Where I live there are billboards all along the highways that "advertise" Jesus. Last week I was traveling between Coeur d'Alene and Post Falls, which are towns just a few miles apart, but we drive the interstate. I saw at least 2 billboards which said "He will draw you closer to Him," and such. And these signs are in addition to the churches and the church signs.

A few weeks ago when my brother drove through Montana, he saw a giant billboard by the interstate that said, "In this valley, Jesus Christ is Lord."

There are no Muslims where I live. There are no Sikhs. I don't know what a Sikh is. I read in the newspaper that there are a few isolated Jews here, but I don't know where. Also, there are no blacks, no Asians or anything else. When I say there are NONE, I mean there are very, very few.

I've been in the Costco store in CdA a couple of times recently when the store was very busy. If you don't know what Costco is, it's a very large major store. When I look around in there, I don't see a single black person - I mean not one. You don't see a single Asian. Well, occasionally there could be one, but usually not. I saw one woman who looked perhaps Mexican. Occasionally you see a family that has come over from Washington for the day, that is something like Mexican. But it is rare to see a black family, ever. There are a couple of "token" blacks that work at Costco. I think, by law, they have to hire one or two - that law must be a federal law because it would never be a state law. The black persons who work at Costco don't live in Idaho, they live in Washington and commute. I think there is one apartment complex in this area where some blacks and Mexicans live, but for some reason, they aren't seen around town. Also, when you look around in the store, everyone is dressed similarly - now for summer, a lot of loose, casual clothes, such as shorts with a shirt hanging out...

...I was speaking to one of the A.N. He's kind of an unofficial member, as many are. I asked him what's going on with them. He said there has been a plan on the table for some time to take back Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and I think Utah and part of Canada to make an all-white zone. He said, "We could do it easily because there's only a mud colored person here and there in these states." He said, "We could clear them out of Washington too, even though there are many minorities there, we could easily clear them out." He said, "We've got the guns!"...

this is just a point I want to make because it seems that here on the forum people don't believe this is true. I've become very aware of our difference from coming here and reading how people interact with Muslims and whatnot on a daily basis, and I'm in a different world. Varenne, I really don't know why we have no minorities, maybe we don't have all the poor people - yet, anyway.

In CdA there are a group of men who have a computer repair business, and they are all gay. They even have a picture of two of them getting married setting out. This is very new for here, and they are taking a chance. They couldn't do it in a small town.

I know of a woman who had a boyfriend from Tailand. I don't know how she met him, but he moved here. He was determined that he was going to stay here, but after he got beat up a couple of times, he moved to Hawaii. She also had a black boyfriend who came over from Washington for a weekend. He didn't understand why they couldn't go out together to a bar here. This woman is actually rather daring, but she said she told him, "You just don't understand!!" They did go out somewhere together, but she said that it was an uncomfortable evening.

Vonny... What third world part of the United States are you living in? I live in the mid-west... Ohio... which for some time now has become known as a haven of Conservatism. In spite of this my next door neighbor is black with a white wife. The neighbors across the street are Puerto Rican. I share an art studio with an older Jewish artist, a Korean and a Chinese guy. My Jewish friend (I'm of German heritage) regularly eat in a diner owned and operated by a Palestinian with whom we regularly discuss politics. We just got home from dinner at a Lebanese restaurant. There are neighborhoods around the city that are Chinese, Jewish, Arabic, Puerto-Rican, Russian, Black, Italian, etc... I can't imagine such a homogeneous culture such as you speak of. Why do you stay? I haven't seen such in any of the areas of the US that I have traveled in.

I seriously have to laugh at the back-woods boonies mentalities of your Bubbas imagining that they could easily retake control of the nation because they have a few guns. Do they honestly imagine that all the gang-bangers in the inner cities are unarmed? What are their numbers in relation to the population of the large cities and surrounding urban neighborhoods?

There was an article not so long ago dealing with the issue of American cities. For some time now there has been this false notion pushed by certain aspects of the press that the "real" America is to be found in the small town and burrows. It hearkens back to a sort of "Leave to Beaver" fantasy of the all white upper-middle-class neighborhoods with look-alike houses with picket fences. As a result, there has been a push to give tax breaks and other incentives to build houses and business in the suburbs (something that certainly favors the oil and auto industries) and beyond while the big cities struggle with issues of crime, substandard education, substandard services, etc... The author argued, and I agree, that if anything, it has always been the great cities that are the "real" America and that have been the driving force behind the nation. I can't imagine living any but the city.

Regardless of the beliefs of your few local racists, the nation as a whole is being continually transformed toward an increasingly multicultural mix. No... I don't buy into the "melting pot" image. Individuals from various cultures are not readily willing to surrender their native culture for some ideal universal American culture... nor should they. If there needs to be a metaphor, perhaps something akin to a great stew in which various elements mix together... yet retain their individual "taste" might be more apt. Cultural differences certainly lead to tensions from time to time... especially among those who refuse to associate with others outside of their own culture.
I, on the other hand, would be bored with a uniformity of culture of which you speak.

Have you driven to Texas StLukes? It's a terrifying experience, and Vonny isn't exaggerating. I live right next to St. Louis, MO, a relatively conservative city, but still diverse like what you describe (though, maybe not as much so). There's a difference between conservatives and complete right-wing loons that one will experience on the Arkansas/Texas border.

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Originally Posted by Calidore

Half full/half empty. The similarities and differences are both there; which people focus on, and what they do about it, is an indicator of character, nothing more.

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Yes, it is important what people do about it and how they act. However, not everybody has reached a certain level of maturity, and as such, they are quite reactive. It applies to any beliefs we hold as truth but religious beliefs can evoke quite heated discussions. I have seen on other forums discussions where enthusiasts of Buddhism, Hindu or Neopagan religions fought to death with Catholics. If they could look beyond their beliefs, they would loose interest to fight. I am sick and tired of watching people arguing and imposing their beliefs upon others. I am more practical than you as I look for tools. :smilewinkgrin: Empty talk doesn’t bring any changes. :beatdeadhorse5:

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Originally Posted by ftil

Yes, it is important what people do about it and how they act. However, not everybody has reached a certain level of maturity, and as such, they are quite reactive. It applies to any beliefs we hold as truth but religious beliefs can evoke quite heated discussions. I have seen on other forums discussions where enthusiasts of Buddhism, Hindu or Neopagan religions fought to death with Catholics. If they could look beyond their beliefs, they would loose interest to fight. I am sick and tired of watching people arguing and imposing their beliefs upon others. I am more practical than you as I look for tools. :smilewinkgrin: Empty talk doesn’t bring any changes. :beatdeadhorse5:

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Interesting enough, it seems as if the atheist individuals are the ones who want to impose their beliefs the most...

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Interesting enough, it seems as if the atheist individuals are the ones who want to impose their beliefs the most...

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You keep saying that - but I can't see the evidence for it...

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Vonny... What third world part of the United States are you living in? I live in the mid-west... Ohio... which for some time now has become known as a haven of Conservatism. In spite of this my next door neighbor is black with a white wife. The neighbors across the street are Puerto Rican. I share an art studio with an older Jewish artist, a Korean and a Chinese guy. My Jewish friend (I'm of German heritage) regularly eat in a diner owned and operated by a Palestinian with whom we regularly discuss politics. We just got home from dinner at a Lebanese restaurant. There are neighborhoods around the city that are Chinese, Jewish, Arabic, Puerto-Rican, Russian, Black, Italian, etc... I can't imagine such a homogeneous culture such as you speak of. Why do you stay? I haven't seen such in any of the areas of the US that I have traveled in.

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St Luke, I think that you should have said...BECAUSE of this. It seems that the media has been able to paint "conservatism" as being racist and prejudice. The reality is that Conservatives are the ones who are the most "color blind". We do not think that there should be any differences. We all are people. I can't believe that you implied that it is "in spite" of conservatism that the community has become diverse.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

You keep saying that - but I can't see the evidence for it...

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It seems that it was the atheists that were wanting to put a ban on religion....not the other way around. Yes....that was said HERE at this site. You will see what you want to see.

Have you driven to Texas StLukes? It's a terrifying experience, and Vonny isn't exaggerating. I live right next to St. Louis, MO, a relatively conservative city, but still diverse like what you describe (though, maybe not as much so). There's a difference between conservatives and complete right-wing loons that one will experience on the Arkansas/Texas border.

It's been a while since I've been through Texas. Certainly the big cities must have large populations of Mexican- and Black-Americans... but I can imagine on the vast isolated plains there is still a pre-Civil War mentality. Most of the where I have traveled more recently and frequently is the North-Eastern portion of the nation... from St.Louis (I visited for a Max Beckmann exhibition some years back) through the East Coast including Chicago, Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., Baltimore, Dover, New York, Jersey City, Newark, Boston, Providence, etc... I tend to focus on the big cities as my interests are focused upon cultural sites (museums, orchestras, etc...) but of course I have to travel through the surrounding suburbs and open rural landscapes to get from one point to the next.

Luke you are an intelligent man but you have not been to Idaho.

We do not have bi-racial couples here. We do not have black people in our stores, except for occasionally maybe one. Once in a while you see a white couple with a black or Chinese child.

There are a few Mexican restaurants. Mexicans are allowed to live here and operate those because people like the food. There are a couple of Chinese restaurants and even a new Thai one.

Some people have tattoos, but a minority. I don't see very many piercings.

In Ohio and in Pennsylvania there is that diversity even though it's Christian. But not here.

I hate to say it because I don't want to have another car on the road, but come on out and see for yourself.

And we don't have homeless people sleeping in parks because it is a crime to be homeless, and they are arrested.

There are lots of poor people here. And there are apartment buildings that are full of meth - I know this is a fact, but I don't see them because I don't go near them.

When you cross over into the state of Washington, it is a completely different world - piercings and tattoos galore, black people, people walking around with half their clothing falling off.

I know a woman, 23 years-old, who went to high school in Boise, in South Idaho. I forget right now what percentage of her high school was Latter Day Saints, but a lot. She plays soccer and she had a very difficult time with them. She is Christian but not LDS.

In the high schools in the larger cities, CdA and Post Falls, there are a few black kids, (very few) and they are accepted because they are good athletes. But no boy who appears gay can stay in high school and graduate. They are relentlessly bullied until they drop out.

I'm not saying that everyone is that kind of Christian, but it is a major force here.

Anyway, Ohio is not like Idaho. If you haven't been here and you don't know anyone who lives here and tells the truth, then you shouldn't discredit me.

Why do I stay here? I may move to Oregon someday, but I will always live in a low population density. I love Idaho. I like the remote areas, and the fact that it's only been a few years since a moose stopped traffic on Hwy 95. Of course, that's changing with more and more people coming in. I could never, ever live in a large city, even Coeur d'Alene.

Another thing, do you have cars with booming stereos on your streets? We don't - not even in CdA. Okay - some of the houseboats get rowdy, I admit.

I'd like to drop this subject now, at least for a day or two. If you think I need antipsychotic medication it's okay.

St Luke, I think that you should have said...BECAUSE of this. It seems that the media has been able to paint "conservatism" as being racist and prejudice. The reality is that Conservatives are the ones who are the most "color blind". We do not think that there should be any differences. We all are people. I can't believe that you implied that it is "in spite" of conservatism that the community has become diverse.

What I was suggesting was that in spite of the image of Ohio as a haven for Conservative extremists as per the 2nd Bush election and irregularities in the Ohio voting progress that delayed the final count making Ohio a joke on par with Florida:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aBaX9GPSaQ

we are far from being anywhere near the extremism that Vonny speaks of. I don't know that I'd buy the notion that Conservatives are less color-blind than Liberals. Certainly the Republicans have done well playing to the extreme Conservative fringe who are afraid of Blacks and Hispanics and Asians and Muslims and anything that "un-American". The problem I have with the Liberal fringe with regard to race is their refusal to acknowledge the failure of certain programs that may have began with the highest of intentions such as that generations of institutionalized Welfare that continues to reward mothers for having repeated children that they can't afford (especially if no father is present) and forced busing. Such programs have clearly served to maintain the cycle of poverty where money could be put to better use through education, job training, etc...

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Originally Posted by Vonny

A lot of people today who call themselves Christians are bullies.

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Yes....yes, there are. However, there are just as many, of not more among the other groups. Just because there are more Christians around it seems like there are more Christian bullies....it only takes a few....don't judge the rest of us due to THOSE morons.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

St Luke, I think that you should have said...BECAUSE of this. It seems that the media has been able to paint "conservatism" as being racist and prejudice. The reality is that Conservatives are the ones who are the most "color blind". We do not think that there should be any differences. We all are people. I can't believe that you implied that it is "in spite" of conservatism that the community has become diverse.

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:smilielol5: Oh, man, thanks for that. I needed a laugh.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

:smilielol5: Oh, man, thanks for that. I needed a laugh.

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Like I said before...people will see what they want to see....and the media has presented a well developed propaganda. It is these kinds of prejudices that have made respect obsolete.

Oh, quit with the liberal controlled media BS. There's liberal controlled media, conservative controlled media, and everything in between, each producing their own propaganda. The liberal media argument has become so passé. It's a joke that conservatives still use it.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

Oh, quit with the liberal controlled media BS. There's liberal controlled media, conservative controlled media, and everything in between, each producing their own propaganda. The liberal media argument has become so passé. It's a joke that conservatives still use it.

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Since the majority of the networks are liberal controlled....it is still far left reaching. I don't care if you accept that or not...it's just the way it has always been.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Interesting enough, it seems as if the atheist individuals are the ones who want to impose their beliefs the most...

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I am wondering how you could come up with your conclusion. :lol: I guess we hear…….. what we want to hear. :wink5:

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Originally Posted by ftil

I am wondering how you could come up with your conclusion. :lol: I guess we hear…….. what we want to hear. :wink5:

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Since it is the atheists who want to control what is taught in schools, blotting out prayer in school and other events (even though the majority may want it among a local group, wanting to remove any reference to God all around. In fact there is the thread here that shows them talking about banning religion. The ACLU very actively protests anything to do with religion. That is how I come to that conclusion. While I can admit that there are negative Christian influences. I rarely see that atheist can even see their negative sides. They laugh and scoff at any mention of the possibility.

W a r n i n g

Please do not personalise your comments.

Posts containing such remarks will be removed without further warning.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

It seems that it was the atheists that were wanting to put a ban on religion....not the other way around. Yes....that was said HERE at this site. You will see what you want to see.

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Oh, brother. I can't believe my comments have been taken so far out of context. I was clearly being facetious when I said we could ban religion, and those words were immediately followed by "or if that's too harsh, we could at least hold them accountable?" The point being that groups of people shouldn't be allowed to operate outside the laws we are ALL governed by.

In that particular conversation, the most heinous church related crimes were being discussed. It's really kind of creepy that someone would fixate on that and somehow twist it to mean that atheists are trying to force their "belief set" on everyone. Keep the hate going, I guess. (Now I will be quoted as saying "keep the hate going" and it will be used as a means of villifying atheism)

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Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin

Oh, brother. I can't believe my comments have been taken so far out of context. I was clearly being facetious when I said we could ban religion, and those words were immediately followed by "or if that's too harsh, we could at least hold them accountable?" The point being that groups of people shouldn't be allowed to operate outside the laws we are ALL governed by.

In that particular conversation, the most heinous church related crimes were being discussed. It's really kind of creepy that someone would fixate on that and somehow twist it to mean that atheists are trying to force their "belief set" on everyone. Keep the hate going, I guess. (Now I will be quoted as saying "keep the hate going" and it will be used as a means of villifying atheism)

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In the same manner, Christianity is vilified. But it seems from my perspective, that it is the rule, not the exception that Christianity is vilified. Also, it seems that many individuals speak harshly and bitterly how they cannot respect the belief in a God, but very few if any at all have made such statements against atheism.