Warning - this post may contain historical spoilers
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Originally Posted by
TheFifthElement
I thought the partiality for Jane Seymour was apparent from the beginning. Remember he sent her a gift and she used the silk in which the gift was wrapped to line her sleeves? Then there was this exchange, very early on:
For some reason, I thought the motive for his interest in the quiet little girl in the corner was because he was considering to use her as a spy himself. Totally oblivious! I think its because Cromwell seems so old and I thought of Jane as a 17 yo... although, no idea how old she actually was. I know Anne Boleyn was about 28 and I am assuming her sister Mary was the older... perhaps I was biased by the portrayal of Jane Seymour in The Other Boleyn Girl, where she is portrayed differently.
Oh, and how do you put text in one of those quote boxes? That may come in handy for me should I want to quote anymore text from Wolf Hall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheFifthElement
Beware, though. The suggestions of Cromwell's interest in women such as Anne and Mary Boleyn and Jane Seymour are entirely fictional. Not much is known about Cromwell's private life. His downfall comes about another way, which I'll tell you if you want to know, but if not there's always Wikipedia ;)
All Wiki mentions is something about him forcing Henry VIII to marry Anne Cleeves - this must be the same Anne that PaulClem and dfloyd said that Henry VIII found repulsive - and that his enemies used this as the opportunity to bring about his execution. If you want to fill in the rest, I'd appreciate it (that's if no one else minds).
I found what wiki had to say here very interesting:
The final session of the Reformation Parliament began on 4 February 1536. By 18 March an Act for the Suppression of the Lesser Monasteries, those with a gross income of less than £200 per annum, had passed both houses. This caused a clash with Anne Boleyn, who wanted the proceeds of the dissolution to be employed for charitable purposes, not paid into the King's coffers. Anne instructed her chaplains to preach against the vicegerent, and on 2 April 1536 her almoner, John Skip, denounced Cromwell before the entire court as an enemy of the Queen. Anne had so far failed to produce a male heir, and Cromwell, aware that the King was growing impatient and had become enamoured of the young Jane Seymour, acted with ruthless determination, accusing Anne of adultery with several courtiers.
If Cromwell wanted Jane Seymour for himself, why does he encourage Henry VIII's advances? He must have been very loyal to Henry, finally only to be repaid with betrayal by the king:
Henry came to regret Cromwell's execution, and later accused his ministers of bringing about Cromwell's downfall by false charges. On 3 March 1541, the French Ambassador, Marillac, reported in a letter that the King was now said to be lamenting that ‘under pretext of some slight offences which he had committed, they had brought several accusations against him, on the strength of which he had put to death the most faithful servant he ever had’.
A bit too late for that regret, Henry!!!!
I'm interested to see how Mantel will use the historical information in her next volume.
Oh, I came across Han's portrait of Cromwell in wiki:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Essex%2901.jpg
So what do you guys think, does he look like a murderer?
possible spoilers for non-Tudor history buffs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Emmy Castrol
For some reason, I thought the motive for his interest in the quiet little girl in the corner was because he was considering to use her as a spy himself. Totally oblivious! I think its because Cromwell seems so old and I thought of Jane as a 17 yo... although, no idea how old she actually was.
What you need to be aware of is that, in those days, it wouldn't be uncommon for a very young woman to be married off to a much older man, as in the case of Charles Brandon who is in his 40's but married a 14 year old.
***possible spoiler - history, but not directly the book***
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Emmy Castrol
All Wiki mentions is something about him forcing Henry VIII to marry Anne of Cleeves - this must be the same Anne that PaulClem and dfloyd said that Henry VIII found repulsive - and that his enemies used this as the opportunity to bring about his execution. If you want to fill in the rest, I'd appreciate it (that's if no one else minds).
Yes, it was Cromwell's role in arranging Henry's marriage to Anne of Cleves which finished him off. By all accounts Henry was very much in love with Jane Seymour and her death affected him very badly. And he was also still obsessed with securing his line with a male heir (although Jane Seymour delivered him a boy, Edward, he was a sickly child and died young - although after Henry). Cromwell arranged his marriage to Anne of Cleves on the grounds that it was a good political match (it created an alliance with the Lutheran Germans in a Europe which was increasingly against Henry, courtesy of his break with Rome) and furthered Cromwell's aims to secure England's break with Rome. Anne, however, did not suit Henry - he found her unattractive and, by definition, she would not then be someone with whom he would be able to produce a male heir. He was forced into the marriage in order to maintain his treaty with the Germans and blamed Cromwell for this. This, coupled with the actions of Cromwell's enemies who seized on the King's displeasure to undermine and, ultimately, kill Cromwell. I suspect other issues were contributory though - the suggestion that Cromwell was siphoning off the King's money (this suggestion is made numerous times through the book), his increasing zeal in reforming the monasteries which was an unpopular initiative which incited rebellion, particularly in the North (remember how it is said that Henry loves to be loved, loves to be popular?) and all this built to create an irreparable breach in the King's and Cromwell's relationship. I notice towards the end of the book that Mantel brings in more about Cromwell, perhaps, desiring power - considering himself the King's right hand man. Is it a case of 'pride comes before a fall'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Emmy Castrol
If Cromwell wanted Jane Seymour for himself, why does he encourage Henry VIII's advances? He must have been very loyal to Henry, finally only to be repaid with betrayal by the king:
It's an interesting point, because there is no suggestion in history that there was ever any interest between Cromwell and Jane Seymour. My interpretation of this is that Mantel is building on Cromwell's reputation as, in Henry's words "the most faithful servant he ever had". Throughout the book she shows Cromwell to have many faults - his ugliness, his trickiness with words, his brutality, his shifty character and willingness to set aside his morals for the sake of expedience - but the one quality which comes across very strongly is his loyalty. This is shown in his support of Wolsey despite his apparent downfall which could have led to Cromwell's ruin, and later in his diligence in securing the King's desire, despite the upheaval and threat this presents to the country (and Europe), but also in the more minor relationships: Mary Boleyn, Rafe, Richard, Johane, even the relationship with Thomas More and Chapuys have a certain consistency and loyalty to them (unless something happens in the last 50 pages, that is. I've not quite finished yet). I think that his giving up of Jane Seymour is intended to further enhance this impression and I wonder if she will also go on to show how his loyalty, ultimately, becomes his downfall? In any event, I think if she's writing a follow up book it will definitely be an interesting read.
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Originally Posted by
Dark Muse
One of the things of which kind of confused me, though I do not know much about how titles work, but I could not help but to wonder about this, is when Anne Boleyn's brother was married, he became known as Lord Rochford.
Why is it that it seemed that he took on his wife's name after marriage? I found this a bit strange, and wondered if it had something to do with her title that she kept her own name and he took it on
My understanding of this is that George's title was granted by the King - the Boleyns were a 'low' family (without rank or title) but due to Anne's liaisons with the King they were granted titles. So George became 'Lord Rochford' by act of the King. From Wiki:
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It was also in December 1529 that he was ennobled as George, Viscount Rochford,
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Originally Posted by
Emmy Castrol
Oh, and how do you put text in one of those quote boxes? That may come in handy for me should I want to quote anymore text from Wolf Hall.
To put text in quotation boxes you can either use the quote tags button just above the message box (if you 'quote' someone else's post it will automatically appear, otherwise click on the 'go advanced' button on the 'quick reply' box and it will automatically take you there), or you can use the code which is [ QUOTE] to start your quotation and [ /QUOTE] to end it. You need to do it without any spaces in between though (I've put the spaces there as otherwise what I've just written would appear in quotes!).