Mozart, 'Genius' and Exam Fakery (1770)

Yanni, the quality of your last post is definitely far higher than those of the last few hours.

Does this fact please you ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGuOVXM-J_U&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtTIl...eature=related


Regards

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Originally Posted by yanni

As Your Grace prefers!

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Originally Posted by Musicology

Neely is so smart he posts on this thread on subjects that have absolutely nothing to do with the thread itself. This is normal. (He comes from that sort of culture and it's par for the course in his mind).

He can't even read the PDF which was offered at the start of the thread. He saved it but couldn't continue. No, he is not dumbed down. You musn't think that ! He is a brilliant scholar. Reading it would require him to switch off his ball game to make any real progress. 'Mozart, Genius and Exam Fakery (1770)' is a subject he needs to read on before he actually comments on it, don't you agree ? What a funny man he is ! There is your modern education in a nutshell !!! What a dumbed down generation ! LOL !!!

Laugh or cry - he loves fooling himself. And so, once again - Mr Horse, here is some Water -

Luca Bianchini
''The Two Antifonas (1770)''
aka 'Mozart, 'Genius' and Exam Fakery (1770)''

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

We really should send him a six pack of beer if he actually reads it. Because that boy has great career prospects if he continues much longer. Mozart was a genius. We all 'know' that, don't we ? Quick, pass me another beer ! 'Everything you've heard is true' says the trailer to that film, 'Amadeus' (as we all know). LOL !!

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:lol::lol: By all means send me the beer... Really, you can't expect people to take you seriously, can you?

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Neely is so smart he posts on this thread on subjects that have absolutely nothing to do with the thread itself.

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Really? I think it is quite fundamental. You post all sorts of nonsense and then get mad when nobody takes you seriously!! Ever heard of the boy who cried wolf? You are that boy, except this time, there is no wolf.

Enjoy your evening. :lol::lol:

.....

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

[Yet the responsibility for proof sits upon him who challenges the accepted facts. The Shakespearean theorists are not in themselves unified as to just who the proposed author is: Marlowe? Francis Bacon? Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford? William Stanley, Earl of Derby?

But they are all agreed as to who didn't write the plays/sonnets etc.

The one thing that all of these theories share is a certain class resentment... an assumption that no "commoner" such as poor Will could possibly have written literature of such quality. The greatest writer in the whole of the English language... if not in the whole of history... most certainly must have been a proper aristocrat.

This is the assumption but there is nothing to substantiate it except perhaps a reverse class resentment.

If the question of Shakespeare's authorship remains unresolved, it only remains so for the simple fact that we shall always have the lunatic fringe and conspiracy theorists with us.

That would be true if the lunatic fringe didn't include such Shakespeare luminaries as John Gielgud, Orson Welles, Derek Jacobi etc etc.

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St Lukesguild has raised some interesting points. They all have in common the fact that powerful evidence exists to show the official version of what we teach and believe cannot possibly be correct. Shakespeare is a plain example. The Titanic another. The Moonlandings, 9/11, the Kennedy Assassination etc. There is nobody today who can honestly say the official story on all of these is consistent with itself or with the evidence that has been presented against them over the years. That's just honest and plain fact. And that means, in the real world, criticism and cross-examination is vital, ongoing and should never be stopped. Unless we wish to deny facts are contradicting what we believe.

Since this thread is really on Mozart and his legendary talents (which I wish to remain the subject of this thread) I believe the subject here (the exam taken by the 14 year old Mozart in 1770) deserves to be read and considered in the light of what modern researchers have actually discovered on it. Which you can read here for yourself. Freely and without any obligation. Such things really are the product of great research. That article is the most detailed of its kind made in 200 years of Mozart research. Show us differently if you can. Whether or not it contradicts what we have read and been taught. If someone thinks differently they are free to tell us their own view. (You notice they have nothing much to say of the actual subject ? Wonder why ? It's because there is really nothing they can say). Let's see if time will rescue convention from the well known story. Because there are a whole series of similar articles that can be posted on Mozart's career of a similar kind. I hope those who don't want to consider such things will find another thread to read and post on. The 'official' version is ALWAYS wrong. Start there. Common sense is not 'out there'. It's right between your ears.

Luca Bianchini
''The Two Antifonas (1770)''
aka 'Mozart, 'Genius' and Exam Fakery (1770)''

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

Thanks

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Now, now, Neely let's not be disingenuous, you know as well as anybody that the Shakespeare conundrum has been frequently discussed on Litnet without resolution.

Yet the responsibility for proof sits upon him who challenges the accepted facts. The Shakespearean theorists are not in themselves unified as to just who the proposed author is: Marlowe? Francis Bacon? Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford? William Stanley, Earl of Derby? The one thing that all of these theories share is a certain class resentment... an assumption that no "commoner" such as poor Will could possibly have written literature of such quality. The greatest writer in the whole of the English language... if not in the whole of history... most certainly must have been a proper aristocrat. If the question of Shakespeare's authorship remains unresolved, it only remains so for the simple fact that we shall always have the lunatic fringe and conspiracy theorists with us. Undoubtedly there are those who question the "authorship" of Bach, Handel, Michelangelo, Rembrandt, Rubens, Titian, Dante, Virgil, etc... etc... as well as the truth of the Lincoln assassination, the Kennedy assassination, the Lusitania, the Titanic, the Moon-landing, 911, and the deaths of Elvis and Michael Jackson.

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Oh, Musicology - thank you for such a fantastic reply! I can honestly say that I haven't laughed this hard in weeks.

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You are 'rather fond of conspiracy theories' ? For their own sake.

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Oh yes! As one who studies mythologies, our modern myth-making is just as psychologically fascinating to me as those our forefathers dreamed up.

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I am sorry I cannot help with your conspiracy theories.

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Au contraire! You're one of my best sources for them!

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They are established facts.

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They are not.

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While you were sleeping they have been proved.

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Golly! All that twaddle processed while I was sleeping!

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All we have are plain facts.

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I think you and I have a very different definition of 'fact'...

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Products of examining the evidence.

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...and indeed what constitutes 'evidence'

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And when you are presented with these documentary, plain facts on a highly specific and important case you reply with the masterful answer of, 'So what' ??? LOL !!!

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Yep.

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This is your attitude so far !! Your education (so-called) causes you to say this. What does this attitude of yours tell us about this subject which we do not already know ?

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My education leads me to look at things sensibly and rationally. Occam's razor, my dear fellow!

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And what does it say of the state of your education ? Nothing worth knowing.

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Well, I did decide to do a PhD on Norse literature... for most people, that probably isn't worth knowing about. Score one to you, old boy!

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And you haven't even read it !!!! I mean - LOL !!!

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'"What sort of person," said Salzella patiently, "sits down and writes a maniacal laugh? And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Four? A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head. Opera can do that to a man."' - Terry Pratchett, Maskerade.

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Shall we describe this as an example of a dumbed down student struggling to open a PDF ?

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Nope, we shall descibe it as an example of MediaFire being on the University's list of blocked websites. Why that is, I can't imagine - there's obviously so much educational material on it.

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You certainly deserve and will no doubt receive a round of applause from those as educated as yourself. Having said nothing you do seem destined for high position, for sure. LOL !!

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Crikey, that's an endorsement! Thanks, M!

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I am 'peddling' nothing. I am presenting and freely sharing (and so are others) documentary, indisputable evidence. Of a kind which, so far, has been simply ignored or trivialised. For over 200 years.

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Have you ever stopped to wonder why they have been ignored or trivialised?

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And you seem unable to handle this fact.

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Not at all! I've simply long since stopped caring, dear boy!

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You are, you say, appreciating the musical 'genius' of Mozart. What 'genius' are you actually talking about ?

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Right now, I'm listening to the 20th Piano Concerto. I need no further proof of genius.

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His ability to fake music exams at the age of 14 ? Which is really the subject of this thread.

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Come now, let's be honest - the topic of the exam is nothing more than a springboard for you to attack Mozart as a whole. You do, and quote, refer to him as "a giant musical fraud" do you not?

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Who were his music teachers ?

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Leopold Mozart, his father. This is well know history, my dear fellow!

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Why do your biographies and textbooks conceal these facts ? Can you please tell us ?

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What, you mean why do they print established truth instead of ranted nonsense? I think the reasons are pretty obvious.

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Who taught Mozart the equivalent of flying a jet airliner (the writing of symphonies, concertos and masses) ?

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Leopold Mozart, his father. On a related note, I'd love to see Mozart flying a jet airliner - presumably he'd be releasing chemicals into the sky while doing so?

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Since his father was not trained in music also.

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Um, yes he was. His Toy Symphony is still regularly performed even today.

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And Wolfgang never went to school in his entire lifetime. Not a single day !

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Neither did Einstien. Oh, hang on - you don't believe in him either, do you old boy? What about Dickens, Bruckner, Churchill, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Frost, C. S. Lewis, Mendelssohn, Shaw and Twain, to name but a few of the many famous people who never went to school.

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The word 'genius' is itself an 18th century invention. Don't you know that ?

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Yep. The telescope is a pretty recent invention, but I still use it to look at events that happened thousands of years ago.

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Want some more articles on that ???

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Not particularly.

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You refer to the 'vast number of people who appreciate the genius of Mozart'.

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You refer to the 'vast number of people who appreciate the genius of Mozart'. How many of them have the remotest idea of the actual details of his life and career ? From which source have they 'learned' of it ? How many have fairly examined the evidence ?

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There are, I understand, lots of contemporary accounts of Mozart. Plenty of letters have been preserved as well. As someone who is leaning heavily on one piece of 'evidence', you shouldn't poke holes, my dear fellow!

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Other than what they have read in nonsense publications and see in popularised eulogies in films ?

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Says the man armed with a thousand loopy websites! And if you're referring to Amadeus, I've never seen it. Looks quite good though!

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At the expense of the lives and careers of hundreds, no, thousands of composers whose names (let alone music) are completely unknown to them !!

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I've no idea where this idea has come from, old boy! Are the voices coming through loud and clear?

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What sort of education is that ? Really ? It is not only ignorance but wilful ignorance, isn't it ??

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I think that answers itself.

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Why not do yourself a favour ? Read the article. If you don't understand it take it to someone who does. And wait for their verdict. Does it get more simple ? I mean, can I make it more simple ?

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Sorry, my old mucker! The server says no, so there'll be no looking at that article for me!

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You do like reality, don't you ?

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I wouldn't be having this conversation if I didn't.

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The 'quality of Mozart's music speaks for itself' ? Really ? Would you care to give us some examples of it so we can see its origins, its history and its publication dates ?

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I refer you to the aforementionedpiano concerto. Seems pretty solidly recorded to me, dear boy!

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Here is a horse.
Here is a river
(The river contains lots of water)

Question - Now that the horse has been led to the water can it be forced to drink it ? I think we know the answer.

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Here is a thread.
Here is a troll
(The thread contains a lot of twaddle)

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And where are those experts when we need them ?

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I think the quality of this debate is a little beneath them. Just because something isn't dignified with a response, it doesn't mean it gains any form of legitimacy.

Once again, thank you M! I find your particular brand of venom most refreshing!

Lokasenna,

Here is some free information that will help you in your studies.

Unless/until you have actually read the subject of a thread you should avoid making a fool of yourself in talking on a subject you know zero about.

If/when you finally open the PDF please post us your thoughts on its content.

You are coming across as one seriously dumbed down kid who wishes to share the fact of his complete ignorance with anyone who reads this thread.

Luca Bianchini
''The Two Antifonas (1770)''

aka 'Mozart, 'Genius' and Exam Fakery (1770)''

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

Oh yes! As one who studies mythologies, our modern myth-making is just as psychologically fascinating to me as those our forefathers dreamed up.

True... if only Robert and Yanni's posts weren't so top-heavy with deadened pseudo documentation they might be worthy of a mythology ala Borges... or at least Umberto Eco. Perhaps they both might do well to learn from Borges considering restraint... reservation... simplicity... and clarity.:ihih:

And Wolfgang never went to school in his entire lifetime. Not a single day !

Neither did Einstien. Oh, hang on - you don't believe in him either, do you old boy? What about Dickens, Bruckner, Churchill, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Frost, C. S. Lewis, Mendelssohn, Shaw and Twain, to name but a few of the many famous people who never went to school.

And don't forget William Blake. And all that's known of Leonardo da Vinci's education is that he made some informal studies in Latin... but he's probably fake, too. And then there's J.S. Bach (Ah! Bach!). Who were his teachers? His father and older brother. Sounds somewhat familiar. And Picasso? Again studied under his father... a mediocre painter and teacher. How can the student possibly have excelled the teacher?

The pejorative nature of Musicology's posts makes me very hesitant to believe anything he has to say.

And, I read over the PDF. It contains no facts that I found, just speculation.

Hi there St Lukesguild,

Can you show me an example of what you call 'pseudo-documentation' in the subject under discussion ? That is, from the PDF already posted on Mozart's music exam in Bologna of 1770. I look forward to seeing an example.

The only 'pseduo documentation' is what has been written on that subject over the past 200 years in 'expert' books and articles, as is shown in the contents of the PDF itself. You have read it, haven't you ? Here is the PDF once again. Please show us which document presented here is of that kind -

Luca Bianchini
''The Two Antifonas (1770)''

aka 'Mozart, 'Genius' and Exam Fakery (1770)''

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj


Thanks

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Oh yes! As one who studies mythologies, our modern myth-making is just as psychologically fascinating to me as those our forefathers dreamed up.

True... if only Robert and Yanni's posts weren't so top-heavy with deadened pseudo documentation they might be worthy of a mythology ala Borges... or at least Umberto Eco. Perhaps they both might do well to learn from Borges considering restraint... reservation... simplicity... and clarity.:ihih:

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No, Wolfgang Mozart never went to school for a single day in his entire life. Nor did he ever study music under any recognised teacher. At any time. This fact may explain why his early manuscripts are a total musical disaster, as we see here with the actual exam paper made in Bologna in 1770, at the age of 14 - the one they never show you in the textbooks. (Because the one you usually see is the later version given to him in Bologna by Padre Martini). Which is what this PDF is already about. You already know this, don't you ? Having read the PDF. Right ?

Which part of this message do you not understand yet ?

Show us some evidence of Mozart's musical studies under the valet/seller of music Leopold Mozart ? Can you show us any evidence of Leopold Mozart teaching harmony and voices to his son in the entire Mozart family literature ? Can you show us evidence of Leopold teaching music to anyone during his entire lifetime ? He did nothing but copy existing music. That is a plain, indisputable fact. Show us differently. Let's stop the fairy stories.

There is no major composer in the entire history of western music who has written major works without studying under recognised teachers of music. Not one. Let's stop this mythology when the facts so plainly contradict the fictions. Does this make sense to you ? To write masses, symphonies, concertos, and operas you have to know what you are doing. Right ? Does this contradict your education ? Mozart at the age of 14 knew virtually nothing of harmony or voices. This is able to be shown by dozens of examples. A clear case already given here in the PDF. And there are dozens more. Let's stop the mythology. Have you any idea of the music he is credited with writing before and after Bologna 1770 ? Does it interest you that it too shows dozens of proofs of NOT being by W.A. Mozart ?

That doesn't matter also. Of course. It never does. LOL. You have been grossly misinformed. Why not consider the actual evidence from both sides and then form your verdict. Because, at the moment you frankly have nothing except to repeat popular fiction.

More articles will follow on the music of Mozart's early career. The same story once again. And once again you will ignore it, because the facts contradict your textbooks. A pattern is emerging here of facts versus popular fictions. As usual.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

And Wolfgang never went to school in his entire lifetime. Not a single day !

Neither did Einstien. Oh, hang on - you don't believe in him either, do you old boy? What about Dickens, Bruckner, Churchill, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Frost, C. S. Lewis, Mendelssohn, Shaw and Twain, to name but a few of the many famous people who never went to school.

And don't forget William Blake. And all that's known of Leonardo da Vinci's education is that he made some informal studies in Latin... but he's probably fake, too. And then there's J.S. Bach (Ah! Bach!). Who were his teachers? His father and older brother. Sounds somewhat familiar. And Picasso? Again studied under his father... a mediocre painter and teacher. How can the student possibly have excelled the teacher?

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Aw, M! No long post for me to play with?

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Here is some free information that will help you in your studies.

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Doubtful, unless Mozart was a Viking.

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you should avoid making a fool of yourself

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But you make it look so much fun, dear boy!

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talking on a subject you know zero about

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Says the fellow who apparently hasn't heard of Leopold Mozart. Slightly hypocritical, my dear chap!

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If/when you finally open the PDF please post us your thoughts on its content.

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Alas, like Tantalus, I am tormented by the apple (of slightly ropey knowledge) hanging ever above me, ever unreachable.

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You are coming across as one seriously dumbed down kid

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You know, I have often wondered how old you think I am. It's really flattering to be considered so young! I really should update that profile picture.

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who wishes to share the fact of his complete ignorance with anyone who reads this thread.

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I was not aware that the dissemination of ignorance in this thread was your singular right and privilege - my apologies for stepping on your toes, old boy!

:ihih:

You have read the PDF and found no facts in it ? LOL

So the music librarian of the Bologna Academy (who studied and wrote on two different versions of the exam paper in Mozart's hand) was wrong and the textbooks (which have ignored this fact for over 150 years) are right. Since those textbooks published the version of Padre Martini (and not that actually made by W.A. Mozart) !!! It's hilarious. That fact has been around since the mid 19th century. But it features in none of the textbooks.

I think you are a fruitcake. A clown. I think (and know) this article is not for you. Have another beer and watch the match. You deserve one. Nobody fools you, right ? Read p. 12-14. No, I've a better idea, just have another beer and watch the match.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

The pejorative nature of Musicology's posts makes me not believe anything he has to say.

And, I read over the PDF. It contains no facts that I found, just speculation.

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Do they laugh at you at school ? I wonder why.

Do yourself a service. Get to a computer and read the PDF. Can you handle such a task ?

But hey, just have another beer and read some more Nietzsche. It will dumb you down even more and they will think you so smart !

I know a friend who keeps a horse. It knows more of music than you do. As for Nietschze he fell under one. And went mad in the last year of his life. Have another beer and watch the match. The way smart kids do.

Poor Mr Nietszche -

On January 3, 1889, Nietzsche suffered a mental collapse. Two policemen approached him after he caused a public disturbance in the streets of Turin. What actually happened remains unknown, but an often-repeated tale states that Nietzsche witnessed the whipping of a horse at the other end of the Piazza Carlo Alberto, ran to the horse, threw his arms up around its neck to protect the horse, and then collapsed to the ground.
Hmmpfh !!!

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Originally Posted by Lokasenna

Aw, M! No long post for me to play with?



Doubtful, unless Mozart was a Viking.



But you make it look so much fun, dear boy!



Says the fellow who apparently hasn't heard of Leopold Mozart. Slightly hypocritical, my dear chap!



Alas, like Tantalus, I am tormented by the apple (of slightly ropey knowledge) hanging ever above me, ever unreachable.



You know, I have often wondered how old you think I am. It's really flattering to be considered so young! I really should update that profile picture.



I was not aware that the dissemination of ignorance in this thread was your singular right and privilege - my apologies for stepping on your toes, old boy!

:ihih:

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Please, dear moderators, do not close this thread or edit his texts.

Truth is hard to handle, but we can do it.

Please.

Yes, JCamilo,

I hope no texts are edited. Including those from fools who don't even read the document. Truth is a stubborn thing. It grows up between the concrete blocks. And there is lots more. It matters that it does so. Because you see the alternative.

Best wishes

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Originally Posted by JCamilo

Please, dear moderators, do not close this thread or edit his texts.

Truth is hard to handle, but we can do it.

Please.

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I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

~ Evelyn Beatrice Hall ~


Since this thread does not serve its original purpose, it will now be closed.

Those who insist on resorting to inflammatory comments will receive infraction points without any further warnings.