Do you believe in Reincarnation?

In fact it is very hard not to believe and we love life so much that we want to extend it perpetually and the fact that death mars it dismays us and we love to imagine life beyond death. I am torn between belief and disbelief. I am not resolute about it, in fact no body is under the sun and there is nothing to substantiate the fact that life will not reincarnate itself or the fact that life will after death. Science taught us to be skeptical, to question and never to take things for granted and that is how we have traversed thus far in geological time now and the achievements we have of science and technology are attributable to our reasoning and questioning mind. We loved the whys, the hows and that landed us in a world of sophistication, science, technology and microchips.

I do not want to mystify anybody with doctrinaire garbage. Of course I am always amazed at the mystery of the world and to think in terms of religious theories that there was a benevolent God who created everything and I can not at the same time resist myself from asking an endless string of questions as to who created the God that created the world.

I too can believe in the indestructibility of matter and then life. I have a different idea about it. I do not believe in the soul, for the most part in the individual soul. I believe in the cosmic soul or I believe the fact that everything in the cosmos is interlinked. We all are universally one no matter we look different. All appearances are illusions. We are not different from stones, rocks, rivers, plants, clouds, airs, for we are them in the making of what we appear to be. There is essential difference between what we are and what we appear to be. I look at a small insect and there is total life in that and the whole cycle of life is there. Of course there are degrees of difference in terms of our capacities and sizes and shapes but looking at it from a very subtle standpoint there is no basic difference. I cannot think a bird loves its baby less and the fact that may distinguish us from the bird is the universe or the existence of life does not make it inquisitive. Maybe it is inquisitive but we can never know this subtle truth.

When we die, our body becomes stiff, immobile, but the air that we breathed, the water we stored in our body, the mind we worked with cease to work and they will reintegrate with the universal soul. We will once again live in the universal soul not in bodily forms

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

The other thing is that there is no idea of a soul. This is a common assumption. Instead the teachings say that it is the energy from one life which causes the next - the classical example is of one candle lighting a second, and then the first being blown out. The second candle is not the first, but it is linked by the energy created.

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"Soul" is just another word.... soul, life force, spirit, whatever... one day when proof IS provided I am damn sure they will call it yet ANOTHER WORD. Society just cant help themselves on this score, its called oneupmanship. Nevertheless, the word Soul is convenient for me to express our non-physical self, its the shortest of all words to type also.

Anyway everything is Subjective at this stage, not one of us has been to the other side and come back to report the "reality" of our existence.

Here is one to ponder on: If you were God, Creator, Lord Almighty, Designer... words again, so back to the point. If you were God, would you reveal yourself right now to the world? I think not. The reason is pretty obvious. Why? Because we simply dont deserve to know at this time. We would find a way to murder Him/Her/It... "words again". Apart from that we dont have the aptitude to understand yet.

We are not ready to find out the truth yet. Its so obvious to me why. There are many reasons but here is one: Altho DNA has always been right in front of our eyes, we could not see it until society became computerized. So thousand of years went by with DNA right in front of us, yet we couldnt see it. That doesnt mean it didnt exist as we now know. So the same applies to the Creator of all that we know and all we have yet to discover.

In the meantime everything we read and write is subjective. The only reality is our direct personal experience. We have still so much to learn and I believe we are still at the very early stages of humanity's evolution. We know nothing and yet we shoot our mouths off about what we know, even tho that will change as it always has and always will. lol

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

How much do you think the average person gives?

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Apparently, the average in the US is 2.7% for those making over 100,000 a year and the average amongst the less than 25,000 income bracket is 4.2% of their income.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...4/ai_95309979/

Edit: The average amount is $1600 dollars a year apparently, primarily to churches.

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

"Soul" is just another word.... soul, life force, spirit, whatever... one day when proof IS provided I am damn sure they will call it yet ANOTHER WORD. Society just cant help themselves on this score, its called oneupmanship. Nevertheless, the word Soul is convenient for me to express our non-physical self, its the shortest of all words to type also.

Anyway everything is Subjective at this stage, not one of us has been to the other side and come back to report the "reality" of our existence.

Here is one to ponder on: If you were God, Creator, Lord Almighty, Designer... words again, so back to the point. If you were God, would you reveal yourself right now to the world? I think not. The reason is pretty obvious. Why? Because we simply dont deserve to know at this time. We would find a way to murder Him/Her/It... "words again". Apart from that we dont have the aptitude to understand yet.

We are not ready to find out the truth yet. Its so obvious to me why. There are many reasons but here is one: Altho DNA has always been right in front of our eyes, we could not see it until society became computerized. So thousand of years went by with DNA right in front of us, yet we couldnt see it. That doesnt mean it didnt exist as we now know. So the same applies to the Creator of all that we know and all we have yet to discover.

In the meantime everything we read and write is subjective. The only reality is our direct personal experience. We have still so much to learn and I believe we are still at the very early stages of humanity's evolution. We know nothing and yet we shoot our mouths off about what we know, even tho that will change as it always has and always will. lol

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There needs to be care with the term soul because it has different connotations for different religions.

Buddhism is different from Hinduism on a fundamental level, and while soul is an appropriate term in Hinduism, it is definately not in Buddhism. Otherwise you get a confusion of meaning. This is important in Buddhism because the idea of no-self and all the implication that has for the practice would be eroded through confusion over the term. It's not just another name but has specific connotations which Buddhism denies. There is enough confusion already.

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

Studies on giving to charity have actually shown that the poorer someone is the more likely they are to give a greater percentage of their income. Turns out happy, content people tend to think less about the well being of others. The caveat to this is the outrageously rich, like Bill Gates, who sometimes give something like 10% of their income to charity a year.

I personally don't believe in reincarnation, or anything supernatural really. Although, I've visited the Vietnamese Pagoda here in Montreal, and the monks were quite nice.

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Do you think it might be because of different attitudes to money - such as an easy-come-easy-go attitude in the poor perhaps? merely speculation I know.

There are good grounds NOT to believe in reincarnation. Try the lessons of nature. For a start. Every seed brings forth (only) of its own kind. So that rules out a man coming back as a fly or an elephant, for a start. Or vice-versa. I guess the lessons of nature count.

However, there are people in East Germany who believe this giant rabbit (which weighs 23 pounds) was once a carrot -

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Originally Posted by Musicology

There are good grounds NOT to believe in reincarnation. Try the lessons of nature. For a start. Every seed brings forth (only) of its own kind. So that rules out a man coming back as a fly or an elephant, for a start. Or vice-versa. I guess the lessons of nature count.

However, there are people in East Germany who believe this giant rabbit (which weighs 23 pounds) was once a carrot -

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They are good grounds only if you accept biological determinism. This is disputed by Buddhists.

On another tack, HH The Dalai Lama has been the subject of a number of books which detail his successive reincarnation in Tibet.

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

We are not ready to find out the truth yet. Its so obvious to me why. There are many reasons but here is one: Altho DNA has always been right in front of our eyes, we could not see it until society became computerized. So thousand of years went by with DNA right in front of us, yet we couldnt see it. That doesnt mean it didnt exist as we now know. So the same applies to the Creator of all that we know and all we have yet to discover.

In the meantime everything we read and write is subjective. The only reality is our direct personal experience. We have still so much to learn and I believe we are still at the very early stages of humanity's evolution. We know nothing and yet we shoot our mouths off about what we know, even tho that will change as it always has and always will. lol

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DNA is not a good example (actually I don't think anything would be a good example for your point). Darwin already recognized the importance of heredity, he knew that 'something' has to be passed on from generation to generation. This was a century before the 3D structure of DNA was discovered. Also a bit later, Mendel indirectly figured out even how DNA gets split and reshuffled, and which genes count and so on (not the details, but the rough process). All this was done without even knwowing what DNA is.

Additionally, saying 'I believe we are still in the very early stages of humanity's evolution' shows a lack of understanding of evolution altogether. There is no goal in evolution. There is only one thing that counts as far as evolution is concerned: gene replication. A 'soul', or anything immaterial for that matter, has no selective advantage. The future of human evolution will most likely be weaker bodies, because many 'mistakes' are nowadays being corrected by medicine, surgery or glasses (in case of bad eyes). So they don't present a disadvantage anymore (which is good), but on the other hand, this will make our species 'weaker'.

So using the world 'evolution' to refer to spiritual development just makes no sense. It's like those quack crystal healers that talk about 'energized quantum states' and 'programming crystals' to 'fix the body's own energy field'. You can buy these (common) crystals for a lot of money at these esoteric New Age shops, but of course all these people actually do is misusing scientific terminology to bamboozle and awe the gullible.

Words -- I am invariably the one who gets them all wrong.

To put my point simply -- I believe we [humanity] still have much to learn.

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Originally Posted by Musicology

There are good grounds NOT to believe in reincarnation. Try the lessons of nature. For a start. Every seed brings forth (only) of its own kind. So that rules out a man coming back as a fly or an elephant, for a start. Or vice-versa. I guess the lessons of nature count.

However, there are people in East Germany who believe this giant rabbit (which weighs 23 pounds) was once a carrot -

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Haha Musicology. I agree I believe humans cannot be reincarnated as a fly or elephant etc.

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

Haha Musicology. I agree I believe humans cannot be reincarnated as a fly or elephant etc.

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Dang it. If we go there, why not cute little animals? When I was little, I always wanted to be reborn as a marmot! My parents even let me write a letter to them (why would they be in control of it, hahaha shows how children think). I thought marmots had the easiest life ever. They'd just sleep and eat all day.

At least now I know that they fight too and get eaten a lot. And their habitat is being destroyed by tourism and global warming. Would still be kinda cool though..

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

Words -- I am invariably the one who gets them all wrong.

To put my point simply -- I believe we [humanity] still have much to learn.

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Haha Musicology. I agree I believe humans cannot be reincarnated as a fly or elephant etc.

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But how can you be sure? The evidence - whilst it does not fulfil scientific criteria, may be fulfilled by evidence, as Dodo pointed out, such as testimony. I suppose it depends what credence is given to the testimony. For myself , HH The Dalai Lama has my respect, and what he says I would give credence to.

it's not that I have to accept it on face value, but there are methods to investigate my own reincarnated history.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Why a sea anenome?

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Just because I can't think of any animal that is as dissimilar to a human being. It would be a bizarre experience for my hypothetically immortal soul.

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

Dang it. If we go there, why not cute little animals? When I was little, I always wanted to be reborn as a marmot! My parents even let me write a letter to them (why would they be in control of it, hahaha shows how children think). I thought marmots had the easiest life ever. They'd just sleep and eat all day.

At least now I know that they fight too and get eaten a lot. And their habitat is being destroyed by tourism and global warming. Would still be kinda cool though..

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You really need to get out of your mind for a bit. Trust me please, allow space between thoughts otherwise you will contaminate your balance.
No need to rush, life is a journey not a destination. Pace it.

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Originally Posted by sh_einstein

Why should some people like The African people be born in poverty, why should some people suffer all their life and others don't.The only explanation that I can think of is REINCARNATION, that we all live many times and our situation in our next life depends on the things we have done in our past lives.But then what would Hell and Heaven mean, if we were about to be punished in our next lives?

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For me the real issue here is not the reincarnation as it is a matter of faith; if your religious and spiritual beliefs dictate so, you accept the idea of reincarnation even though there are no "scientific" proofs for it.

However, what I take issue with is the so-called justification for the idea of reincarnation as it is put forward in OP and supported by some other members: that someone must have led morally less than acceptable life previously to be punished by starvation and poverty in this life.

I find this notion disagreeable because it also implies that those of us who are not poor or starving right now must have been "good" people earlier, which, I believe, is a very arrogant and insensitive attitude towards those who suffer in many different ways all around the world. Rape or murder victims, people who died in natural disasters, those who are subjected to abuse in many different forms...

Should we tell them, "Sorry, mate! You had it coming for a long time! Should have been good like I was."?

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

I believe we [humanity] still have much to learn.

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Apparently.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

Apparently.

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For the first time, we have something in common.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

I find this notion disagreeable because it also implies that those of us who are not poor or starving right now must have been "good" people earlier, which, I believe, is a very arrogant and insensitive attitude towards those who suffer in many different ways all around the world. Rape or murder victims, people who died in natural disasters, those who are subjected to abuse in many different forms...

Should we tell them, "Sorry, mate! You had it coming for a long time. Should have been good like I was."?

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How will we know until we have crossed the line?

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

How will we know until we have crossed the line?

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Well, we won't. And I think that's exactly the point everyone's making. In the absence of any way of knowing, most of us think it's a bit, er, inadvisable to decide that there's a system at work which - as you say - there's no apparent support for.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

For me the real issue here is not the reincarnation as it is a matter of faith; if your religious and spiritual beliefs dictate so, you accept the idea of reincarnation even though there are no "scientific" proofs for it.

However, what I take issue with is the so-called justification for the idea of reincarnation as it is put forward in OP and supported by some other members: that someone must have led morally less than acceptable life previously to be punished by starvation and poverty in this life.

I find this notion disagreeable because it also implies that those of us who are not poor or starving right now must have been "good" people earlier, which, I believe, is a very arrogant and insensitive attitude towards those who suffer in many different ways all around the world. Rape or murder victims, people who died in natural disasters, those who are subjected to abuse in many different forms...

Should we tell them "Sorry, mate! You had it coming for a long time?"

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It is a valid point, and one that Glen Hoddle - the then England Manager - was in trouble for. This view would justify componding the punishment if it were true, and could very quickly lead to subjugation and victimisation.

The Buddhist view on this point is that Karma - the driving force in the reincarnation of a being into human form - establishes the being in a human form. The Buddhist teachings also state that samsara - the world we live in - is a state of suffering - hence the quest to escape through Enlightenment.

A being in a human form is subject to the suffeing of the human state - fire flood famine war poverty accidents sickness ageing and death etc. Anyone can experience these as a human - we have no way of knowing whether our country will remain peaceful, quake free or experience any of the other unfortunate conditions that afflict countries around the world.

In a similar way, a being conceived as a foetus is subject to the conditions of the human form and may encounter infection, accidents at birth, exposure to toxins, violence, etc etc which then lead to a disability or special needs. In fact any one of us could have an accident or contract a virus tomorrow that could severely impair us in some way.

The explanation for this is that it is the human condition - this, and all the other things we have to put up with are part of human suffering. It is our karma to be reborn as a human, but karma is not deterministic in the sense that it lays down the fact that a person will have car crash on such and such a day which results in some impairment and disability. The most virtuous person in the world can have an accident.

So in conclusion, it is not that people with disabilities, for example, are being punished for their past deeds, it is that they have been exposed to the sufferings of the human realm, and, unfortunately, had an accident or contracted an illness or had some genetic disorder passed to them from a parent.

I hope this is clear. :biggrin5:

Just to add - Buddhism states that we have had countless lives and thus accrued lots of good and lots of bad Karma. Every being has a store of both of these. What occurs at a particular time depends upon circumstances where good or bad Karma can "ripen". It is not a linear view - I was good last time so I'll be rewarded this time or vice-versa. It is a circumstantial view - these conditions arise, so that Karma occurs.

Unless you believe we have reached our peak.... then we have a long way to go!

{EDIT}

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

Unless you believe we have reached our peak.... then we have a long way to go!

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Yeah, we do. We need to get beyond making stuff up, for a start.


{edit}

Reincarnation? Hey, I'm as much in favor of recycling as the next
girl, but this is ridiculous.

I feel like I've been here before.

:biggrin5:

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

I feel like I've been here before.

:biggrin5:

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In this life time or a previous one?

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

In this life time or a previous one?

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:biggrin5:

Can I re-embody? Of course I can and that is why everyday new faces turn up from the dead ones. It is all through a process of metamorphoses. I was somebody before this life and that body thawed into natural elements through a process of disintegrations. Generation, degeneration and regeneration all in eternal succession. Few can comprehend this subtlety. I do not think I die for eternity but I love for eternity

Here's what I think, there is no definitive answer, but at the end of the day I find reincarnation to be more likely then, other religious suggestions. Personally I think we all wander around as ghosts after we die. Sure it isn't as romantic as reincarnation or heaven or whatever else, but it seems to be the only thing with evidence that isn't just written down.

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Originally Posted by Revolte

Here's what I think, there is no definitive answer, but at the end of the day I find reincarnation to be more likely then, other religious suggestions. Personally I think we all wander around as ghosts after we die. Sure it isn't as romantic as reincarnation or heaven or whatever else, but it seems to be the only thing with evidence that isn't just written down.

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In Tibetan Buddhism the between life state s called The Bardo where according to the Teachings - we will assume an etheric type body before being propelled into our next incarnation. There are even instructions for someone who may be in this state, but is unsure. Check by walking through sand - if you leave no footprints, etc etc - then you're dead. Funny to have such practical advice for such a situation. Perhaps it's Tibetan practicality. :biggrin5:

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Originally Posted by Musicology

There are good grounds NOT to believe in reincarnation. Try the lessons of nature. For a start. Every seed brings forth (only) of its own kind. So that rules out a man coming back as a fly or an elephant, for a start. Or vice-versa. I guess the lessons of nature count.

However, there are people in East Germany who believe this giant rabbit (which weighs 23 pounds) was once a carrot -

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I'm a little confused by this analogy. It is sound when talking about the physical, but I think most people who believe in reincarnation believe the soul is an energy source that inhabits physical forms. Once, of course, it is in a physical form, it is confined to the laws of nature.

Unless you believe that energy is stamped as human energy and can only inhabit human bodies...then there is no reason why a person can't be an elephant in one life and human in the next. However, even if the soul can only possess one kind of form, such as human, that still doesn't rule out reincarnation. All it rules out is that you have had lives as a different species.

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Originally Posted by sh_einstein

Why should some people like The African people be born in poverty, why should some people suffer all their life and others don't.The only explanation that I can think of is REINCARNATION, that we all live many times and our situation in our next life depends on the things we have done in our past lives.But then what would Hell and Heaven mean, if we were about to be punished in our next lives?

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I do think we all have our share of suffering . Who said that people who have money do not suffer in their life ?!!
Some lack money , others love . Some lack children others good health . But we all have our share .

No , I don't believe in reincarnation and I don't like the idea .
Once I said , in another thread , that if I can choose I would come back to life again but as the same person not in someone or something else .

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Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

I do think we all have our share of suffering . Who said that people who have money do not suffer in their life ?!!
Some lack money , others love . Some lack children others good health . But we all have our share .

No , I don't believe in reincarnation and I don't like the idea .
Once I said , in another thread , that if I can choose I would come back to life again but as the same person not in someone or something else .

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I agree with you that everyone suffers in some way or other, but you must see that some people - in fact some nations - endure significantly more suffering than others. I don't think you can compare the suffering of some third world coutries with the richer countries in the world. We don't all have our share.

I'm not going to give my opinion on the subject...I'm tired from just reading the other posts, but I will post this link. I was reminded of this article when reading the thread.

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Originally Posted by TurquoiseSunset

I'm not going to give my opinion on the subject...I'm tired from just reading the other posts, but I will post this link. I was reminded of this article when reading the thread.

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It's an interesting post, and there have been a number of studies and stories done in the past. The problem is that whilst it's enough for someone who already believes, this kind of story will never satisfy a sceptic.

It does throw up a number of questions such as why wasn't he reincarnated straight away etc.

Interesting link though. :D

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

I agree with you that everyone suffers in some way or other, but you must see that some people - in fact some nations - endure significantly more suffering than others. I don't think you can compare the suffering of some third world coutries with the richer countries in the world. We don't all have our share.

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If you compare nations within the same period of history you would be right . But throughout history in general ,great and strong civilizations fall and perish while small nations rise and flourish . Everyone has his turn .
I tend to see things as" ignorance versus knowledge" not as" richness versus poverty" . Some know what they have , know how they can benefit from what they have, others do not .
Some use their brain ,others do not .
Poverty is our responsibility .

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Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

If you compare nations within the same period of history you would be right . But throughout history in general ,great and strong civilizations fall and perish while small nations rise and flourish . Everyone has his turn .
I tend to see things as" ignorance versus knowledge" not as" richness versus poverty" . Some know what they have , know how they can benefit from what they have, others do not .
Some use their brain ,others do not .
Poverty is our responsibility .

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Your words are full of wisdom and of course everyone has his turn. No one or no nation is completely at its zenith all suffers ups and downs in point of fact. This always makes me patient and tolerant. At times it helps me endure great difficulties in life, for we can expect a sunny day after the pour.

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Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

If you compare nations within the same period of history you would be right . But throughout history in general ,great and strong civilizations fall and perish while small nations rise and flourish . Everyone has his turn .
I tend to see things as" ignorance versus knowledge" not as" richness versus poverty" . Some know what they have , know how they can benefit from what they have, others do not .
Some use their brain ,others do not .
Poverty is our responsibility .

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I used nations when really I should have used individuals to disgree with your view. I do not think there is a sharing of suffering in anything like the equal way that you talk about. Yes everyone suffers, but I can travel now 30 mins away to a hostel where the suffering is intense and horrible for the residents with serious mental health problems. Somewhere in this city tonight there will be drug abuse, child abuse, neglect, domestic violence and all the other horrible things that happens to some and not others. I just don't see the suffering being shared out at all.

This is the problem I have with theism - the complete lack of fairness or reason.

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Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

If you compare nations within the same period of history you would be right . But throughout history in general ,great and strong civilizations fall and perish while small nations rise and flourish . Everyone has his turn .
I tend to see things as" ignorance versus knowledge" not as" richness versus poverty" . Some know what they have , know how they can benefit from what they have, others do not .
Some use their brain ,others do not .
Poverty is our responsibility .

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But this has got nothing to do with people, the country you're living in is a great factor here, some may never have the opportunity to "use their brain", some never even get the chance to explore their talents.All suffer but their suffering is truely incomparable, some are responsible for their suffering but some are born in it, how do you explain that?

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

I used nations when really I should have used individuals to disgree with your view. I do not think there is a sharing of suffering in anything like the equal way that you talk about. Yes everyone suffers, but I can travel now 30 mins away to a hostel where the suffering is intense and horrible for the residents with serious mental health problems. Somewhere in this city tonight there will be drug abuse, child abuse, neglect, domestic violence and all the other horrible things that happens to some and not others. I just don't see the suffering being shared out at all.

This is the problem I have with theism - the complete lack of fairness or reason.

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:iagree:

and

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all the other horrible things that happens to some and not others. I just don't see the suffering being shared out at all

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Not others in the actual moment ,but how can one predict what will happen in the future ?
Those who do not suffer now , could you guarantee that they won't suffer in the future ?

That does not mean let them suffer because everyone has his share in life . Life is a labor and a test .First we are asked to work to improve our situations . No one could help you if you don't try to help yourself .Then if you try and you couldn't improve your situation that would be at test of your patience .And you will be rewarded in the afterlife.

For those who do not suffer from the same thing , their sense of humanity is tested .It's your duty to give help to those who are in need and you'll be rewarded for it too.

I would like to add that I'm a muslim not a thesit only . So the afterlife as a reality is an essential principle we explain many things according to it.

This is God's justice . You would say where is the justice because you see the life here as the end of everything .
We see it as the beginning and the end is somewhere else .
There is a meaning and purpose for everything we experience in this transient life . God's wisdom is transcendental .

-so why do we have different paths? why do some people have to be more patient than others, why do some have to experience worse things?

-what if a person commits a crime only because he was born in a bad society, will he be punished in afterlife? maybe he would'nt have committed that crime if he was in a better enviornment.how is this justice?

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Originally Posted by sh_einstein

-so why do we have different paths? why do some people have to be more patient than others, why do some have to experience worse things?

-what if a person commits a crime only because he was born in a bad society, will he be punished in afterlife? maybe he would'nt have committed that crime if he was in a better enviornment.how is this justice?

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There are great elements of truth in your post.Of course man is not solely responsible for what he does. I do not subscribe to the Christain dogma that man has always free will that will shape his entire life's journey and he will account for all that happens. It is rubbish. Now all of us know what indoctrination is, and small chidren in their formative years are very gullible to external stimuli and if some dogmas are indoctrinated into their defenseless or unguarded minds they will succumb to the situations. Crimes happen when the environment turns up very vicious. A baby who is born in a state of poverty will be morally blind and his first need is to satiate his intense hunger, at times at any cost. Why people steal? Because there is no proper distribution system and there are great disparites or inequalities in incomes and that compel people to steal. Man is not in every respect accountable for all the crimes that happen in a particular social setup. Of course the social conditions that prevail there account for all that happens there. It is therefore, physical, social, economic, political, global, ethical, religious or cultural conditions that may shape the individual to a great extent

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Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

This is God's justice

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It's absolutely vital to the concept and administration of justice that it should be transparent. Those who are subject to it must be able to see that it's fair, consistent, proportionate, even-handed and incorruptible. As you say - we can't see that at all, so whatever this is of God's, it's not justice.

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Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

God's wisdom is transcendental .

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Well, it shouldn't be. It's not fair to construct a universe that operates to a set of rules that transcends - or if you like, surpasses - the understanding of the creatures whom you expect to abide by the rules.

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Originally Posted by sh_einstein
-so why do we have different paths? why do some people have to be more patient than others, why do some have to experience worse things?

-what if a person commits a crime only because he was born in a bad society, will he be punished in afterlife? maybe he would'nt have committed that crime if he was in a better enviornment.how is this justice?

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Different paths because He wanted us to follow His path voluntiraly .

It is all a test, everytime I feel that life is non- endurable any more , I think of His promise to those who endure. I regain my strength and remind my self that all the long years we spend here do not equal one moment in the afterlife. That helps me to be more patient and endure my life .
Why do I experience these things while others do not ? I 'm not ego- centric not to see the others . Life is full of misery of everykind . I'm just one drop in the big ocean . You feel it's nothing when you compare it to the ocean . You feel you 're so lucky maybe when comparing and thanks God .

So you don't want to punish who are born in a bad society because it is not their fault .

I 've spent many years in my life saying :It is not my fault , it is not my fault , it is their fault .
I enjoyed the role of the victim and became a slave . Yes I was a slave .
I've known what does mean to be a human being when I stopped saying it is their fault not mine
When I began assuming responsibility , challenging my stituation , trying to improve my self and my conditions . Using my own free will by choosing . At that moment I felt I am a human being . Maybe I did not succeed in everything but at least I tried . I feel ashamed how I spent the most beautiful years in my life being a slave . I did harm to my self much more than others did . And I think this is the most harmful thing a human being could do to himself .
Someone says :" freedom does not mean happiness but being responsible of your own misery ."

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

It's absolutely vital to the concept and administration of justice that it should be transparent. Those who are subject to it must be able to see that it's fair, consistent, proportionate, even-handed and incorruptible. As you say - we can't see that at all, so whatever this is of God's, it's not justice.



Well, it shouldn't be. It's not fair to construct a universe that operates to a set of rules that transcends - or if you like, surpasses - the understanding of the creatures whom you expect to abide by the rules.

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Yes you're right . And because He is just and fair and we cannot grasp the meaning and wisdom behind things easilly ,He explained everything to us in the Qur'an and does not leave us in the darkness .
How could you understand His point if you don't listen to Him/His words?!!!
Have anyone of you read the Qur'an ?!
It is not fair of you to judge before listening to Him .