It could make a good sit com.
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It could make a good sit com.
What do u want us to say :Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Yes. The article got me thinking about perceptions of heaven, and seemed to throw up some interesting points about the current view of heaven. I don't think there have been many satisfactory defences of this popular view by believers yet. I wonder if they've really considered it
u said by yourself " believers " , no one proclaimes he can proove their existence .
But no one of you can proclaim that they do Not exist too because it is proven that human beings are limited , in power over things , in knowledge , at least till these days .
Who knows maybe one day we can travel in time and went there so we could proove that they do exist in real or do not exist . And till those days we have only the words of God and our faith in them and that everything mentionned there is true .
Wonderful and very brave thread, Paul.
Heaven and Hell has always presented a great dilema for me; even during my youthful exposure to fundamentalist christianity.
I couldn't quite understand why a person would have to die, and then be made immortal, only to go to hell to be tortured for eternity. As a loving, paternal figure, I could not quite believe that god would see any point in torturing a creation forever; particularly since he/she was responsible for their original exposure to evil.
Heaven, on the other hand, seemed to be too many material rewards too late to benefit from them...
I'll take my money now, Thanks:angel:
I have an odd suspicion; that though I do not believe in a judging god, heaven or hell; I will be praying on my death bed...
Just in case...
Hi Caddy - I think you misunderstand me. The point of the article was to question perceptions of heaven or hell. The article has suggested that the idea of heaven was a Jewish construct which had litte reltion to our present idea of what heaven will be like. I know it can't be proved either way - and it's not about converting a believer or an unbeliever. What is interesting in the article is that current versions of heaven seem to rest upon the situation of the person asked. What is heaven like? How do we know? Is it a mental construction? Given that we can experience hellish conditions on earth, are there heavenly conditions, and does this point to the reality of heaven and hell?Quote:
Originally Posted by caddy_caddy
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
More honest than many. I had a similar problem with evil and creation too.
Yes but during the discussions it turned out to be sth else .
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhQuote:
Would any believer like to deal with the "eternal" part of heaven? How you see that eternity working out? It's a hell of a long time.
It's really boring . I don't know what will be there to make us handle living for eternity . For sure I fear hell and I don't want to be there but I never longed for eternity in heaven . If I could choose I would come back again and have another life . The earth is so beautiful too and what is mentionned in the Qura'n about heaven : its physical reality has many resemblances with what we have on earth , for instance rivers , trees , fruits and so on .
So , the Atheist , u won't miss anything there .
The only thing that makes me think of it is the fact that I can meet whom i love there . I'm making " rendez -vous there " .:angel: really I'm not kidding .
And since here I don't get bored being with them and time passes very quickly when we are together . I think this very thing would make eternity endurable and we won't feel it that long .
Actually we are told that we will be for ever youth there . That means we won't be affected by the passage of time and we don't know what would be the time there . We cannot make an analogy between our conditions here and our conditions there.
Moreover God will purify our hearts from envy and hatred . Our hearts would be only full of love so you will be happy being with your ex-wife and do not complain about it .
In what concerns the murderer being with his victim in heaven . You should know that unless the victim " forgives " his murderer , the latter won't get the mercy of God .LooK how God is just .
From the discusions I noticed that there are differences concerning this issue . One thing I want to add being essential to the conception of heaven
for Muslims at least is that " in heaven we could see God ".
." This is what they long for and what they pray for . In their consciousness it is related to this possibilty .It is a great motive for human beings . Immagine that u could see the Lord !
Where do the Muslim references to heaven come from? Is it the Koran?
In the original article, the problem with Christian heaven is that the original conception is not like the current one, and the original Jewish idea was that there was no afterlife, though the messages are mixed.
Perhaps because the Koran is more recent, then it has provided a more consistent image of heaven?
Yes The Qura'n is full of details about heaven and hell .What is mentionned asserts that they are physical , real , and concrete . We have no such problem. This matter is very clear and consistent .
But before that and long time ago ,if you accept that Adam is the origin of our species , the very idea comes from God not human and inherited from Adam to his descendants .
I wanted to buy that book today, but they didn't have it and I'd need to order it. But seeing that statement makes me want to reconsider.. I don't need to read a book with a moral message atheism = nihilism.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
Anyone willing to defend the book (I know lots of people here have read it)?
And in order to not get too off topic, I am also interested in what you all think of the statement in general. i.e. 'The Atheist' said Christians are more altruistic and he could even give evidence for that.. Is that really true? I'd like to hear the reasoning and see some stats.
In what way are they physical and real? Does that mean they are in a physical place? Is this place on earth or somewhere else? What then about hell? I ask out of interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by caddy_caddy
I don't know about stats, but look in many Weatern cities and there is a salvation Army hostel. There are lots of christian charities, too. The missions set up abroad may well exploit opportunities for conversion, but I'm sure that they do that after the charity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodo25
In India there are also Christian charities. Mother Theresa's mission is one example of Catholic good works. From working at one for a short while, I didn't get the impression that it was to swell Catholic membership, but was for altruistic purposes. I'm not a Christian by the way.
Quite right, it's a stupid premise. I don't like to blow my own trumpet, but I'm a hardline atheist and I bet I give more money and time to charities than just about any christian you'll find.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodo25
I'll try to find them - there are some quality statistics on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodo25
Maybe not the best choice you could come up with - MT's "charity" made hundreds of millions of dollars out of ostensibly helping terminally ill people, but in fact was exploiting many curable patients and letting them die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Chris Hitchens does a great job of exposing the myths about Theresa.
Interestingly, before she died, she admitted that she'd lost her faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Perhaps not but the choice was based upon what I saw happening in a mission. It wasn't a big place, and was filled with nuns helping disabled kids and elderly people. I don't know about the big organisation stuff, but certainly the individuals who worked there were sincere.
So I have to wonder what you doing on a thread like this... are you trying to change our minds to your way of thinking? http://serve.mysmiley.net/tongue/tongue0015.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
I havent read the thread because its irrelevant what people think about Heaven or Hell, they live their own... whatever they are comfortable with.
Heaven and Hell are not places and there are billions [or rather trillions] of forms of heaven and hell on earth.
http://forum.thescubasite.com/animated/anim_26.gif
That does depend upon your point of view. Muslims and Christians claim heaven to be a different place, whilst Buddhist views of the world are that it's underlying feature is suffering - including the various heavens in the worldview.Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzydoll
The viewpoint - people think whatever they are comfortable with is all very well, but what if they think something damaging like the terrorists who believe that heaven awaits them after they have been martyred.
I also think it;s a complacent view, as life for so many people is difficult and full of suffering.
Thats why I said there are trillions of heavens and hells, we all have our own.
The world will never rid itself of its madmen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Paul if we only focus on difficulties and suffering then what is LIFE is for? We may as well be done with it and blow a hole in our heads or take an overdose. Assuming reincarnation does exist, its message teaches.. what we dont learn in this life will become our nemesis in the next. What does that say for suffering?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I believe in life we must try to keep it and simple and as joyful as we can otherwise there is no quality of life... I live in Heaven, but thats probably due to coming from more than enough Hell, to not want to go back there. The choice is always ours.
Life is like a wild tiger
You can either lie down
and let it
Lay its paw on your head --
Or sit on its back and ride it.
From: Ride the Wild Tiger.
http://serve.mysmiley.net/animated/anim_16.gif
In fact even in Christianity there is an idea of figurative heaven not material. Milton in Paradise Lost said Heaven or Hell is a state of mind only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Thanks for pointing that out Blaze, I didnt know that.
I came back to add, every single human being has things they can appreciate. The sooner they concentrate on those, the sooner joy returns and where else is joy but in Heaven.
I certainly hope you continue to live in heaven, but the nature of our existence is suffering - and to answer your question, from the buddhist viewpoint, life is to develop, improve and ultimately escape from suffering. The point of it is that there's a way to make life better and ultimately show others.Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzydoll
It's not about lying down but dealing with it. I don't know you dizzy, and so I can't make assumptions about you and your attitude of course, but if a person focuses only upon the heavenly aspects of life , then they mss learning opportunities, and are ignoring the fundamental causes of their suffering. This is the Buddhist viewpoint.
Assuming reincarnation does exist, its message teaches.. what we dont learn in this life will become our nemesis in the next. What does that say for suffering?
This is not the Buddhist view. It is karma that determines your reincarnated state. You may be referring to another system though.
Are u sure that the heaven in Christianity is not material ???:shocked:Quote:
In fact even in Christianity there is an idea of figurative heaven not material
I think heaven and hell oftentimes are considered physical places high in the sky. This is a myth. They are symbolic, figurative only.Quote:
Originally Posted by caddy_caddy
Spot on, thats where I am and thats where everyone can be -- developing and improving. Paul, we should be careful to not blindly accept any conditioning so I put it to you, if someone lives in suffering they are living in the past. It is wrong to live in the past, we must learn to live in the present NOW. Also I dont know if its our responsibility to show others anything, each of us has our own guiding Light to trust and follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I think its also wise to remember that all records of all religions and belief systems have been written by man which makes them all man-made concepts and therefore we should not allow them to control every aspect of our lives. This is not to say we cannot learn from their teachings but we should always allow and trust our own guiding Light first. Was not Buddha’s last words "Be lamps unto yourselves"?
You are correct, you have no clue what I have learned, and to my knowledge, I havent missed any opportunities and I havent ignored any part of my life either. I believe that I chose my life and my lessons before I was born and I believe everyone else did the same. I have suffered also like everyone else. But are all these points reason to not enjoy the aspects of heaven in which I choose to live?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Well who makes our karma Paul? No-one else but ourselves. As far as reincarnation is concerned there are many different divisions of Buddhism, some dont believe our souls return to earth and others do. Those who dont believe we return teach that we make our own karma here and now. Those who do, believe good and bad karma carry through many lifetimes. All this is really besides the point, what is more to the point is that we determine our karma. So as I stated before, its our choice.. we make our own Heaven or Hell by the way we conduct our lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
This is just a friendly debate Paul, no offence meant if I disagree with you, or others views about Heaven and Hell or other spiritual issues. I will say tho, until I am given proof that Heaven and Hell are "physical places", I will not believe it.
Paul, I think you might have missed this comment because you and I posted at the same time:
I came back to add, every single human being has things they can appreciate. The sooner they concentrate on those, the sooner joy returns and where else is joy but in Heaven.
Like Paul, I find the subject interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzydoll
I find it even more interesting that such a clearly constructed idea should be so vague.
I have to say that's an extremely naive view.Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzydoll
Lots of people live in hell right now and cannot change it.
Well enjoy your hell http://serve.mysmiley.net/angel/oncloud.gif and I will enjoy my naive heaven.
http://serve.mysmiley.net/happy/happy0049.gif
Haha, yes!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodo25
In fact the chapters on Father Zosimov are really moving and beautiful. I have this one, and think it is a good translation (it was award-winning :p)
http://www.amazon.com/Brothers-Karam.../dp/0679729259
Agreed and while we seem to think everything is created in duality, tis not really the case as what we perceive as duality is but ONE WHOLE... the one cannot be without the other. We are travelling our journey towards learning unconditional love... for both others and ourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
So you are saying that if someone experiences oneness with the universe, they are not experiencing something real?Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzydoll
No, they are experiencing something real once they become aware that we are all one with the universe and everything in it. I often maintain that God is in everything we see and even that which we cannot see, like oxygen.
Well yes , if any one of us are one with the universe, then all of us are. But that's what I thought you were saying was not true a few posts ago..:confused5:Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzydoll
Where, you must have misunderstood my post or else its just my clumsy way of expressing myself again.... Where?
I misunderstood! :p
It was this:It's not your fault.. I read it like this:Quote:
tis not really the case as what we perceive as duality is but ONE WHOLE...
with a "that" instead of an "as"Quote:
tis not really the case that] what we perceive as duality is but ONE WHOLE...
I guess...silly me.
Thank God... we as humans are foolish enough to perceive anything.. thats all my comment meant to say. What happened to your other post to Atheist? I was was about to agree with you. I dont mind being called naive by some... we are all learning and are at different stages in life. I would be more unhappy if you called me naive and I would quickly want to learn where I am wrong from you. That is why I asked for your feedback on my posts
I think you are giving a lot of true and positive ideas to the world. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzydoll
And about the Hell and Heaven bit, I'll post a bit from a Buddhist parable which you've probably heard... I was glad to read it again after searching for it! :)
"Heard a great story about how heaven and hell expressed though Buddhism is very different to how religions preach heaven and hell. The story is of a Samurai who was sick of hearing mythical descriptions of heaven and hell and wanted to understand what Buddhist monks believed…The young Samurai warrior came across a monk sitting down and asked him:
“Monk. Is there a heaven and a hell? If you know the answer, tell me. If you don’t, don’t waste my time!”.
The monk looked up at him and said “you’re too stupid to understand!”.
The samurai said “Stupid? I’m a samurai warrior!”. The monk replied “You. A samurai? don’t be silly, you’re just a country bumpkin!”.
“That’s twice you’ve insulted me monk!” he rests his hand on his katana handle and sates “one more insult and I will cut you’re head off with this sword in half a second!”.
“With that, stupid rusty blade, you couldn’t cut a slice of bread with that!”. The samurai draws his sword, incensed by the insult of his imaculate sword, squinting his eyes with rage he prepared to swipe with his blade, the monk made eye contact and said:
“Samurai! That’s hell!”.
The samuai then understood at that moment that the anger he felt was what hell was like. He was so moved that he dropped his sword and his eyes welled up and bowed to the monk saying “thank you monk.”. Then the monk said “and that is heaven.” and the samurai understood that the repect, understanding, and compassion he flet was what heaven was like…"
http://www.jamesmylne.co.uk/blog/?cat=15
Thank you Nikolai.. your response makes perfect sense to me. Your views are important to me. I knew from the very beginning that yours and Blaze's views were most compatible with my outlook when I signed up here. Do you remember?
Now, try telling people that we choose our lessons before we get here and that, what seems to be suffering to us in others, was chosen by their Old Soul and it is not our burden to carry their suffering.. its only our right to offer compassion but we are not able to release them of their load. Once we understand this simple truth then we begin to understand why some people seem more blessed than others, its their due. We are not all required to randomly suffer, and I believe once we grasp this reality our life changes to a heavenly Joy right here on earth.
Life is not a reality its only our perception... we make our own Heaven or Hell even if we ARE repaying bad karma, all we need to remember is that as long as we count our blessings in appreciation of all things, it can only improve even while we work bad karma off.
Interesting. I've never heard that or thought of it that way, but I am glad you shared it with me. Thank you. :smile5:Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzydoll
I had updated the end of that message while you were typing. Please read what you missed Nikolai....
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzydoll
It is wrong to live in the past, we must learn to live in the present NOW. Also I dont know if its our responsibility to show others anything, each of us has our own guiding Light to trust and follow.
As the Atheist said, this is a naive view. Many people suffer extremely for many reasons, and these can be through war, poverty, illness, mental problems, loss of jobs, relationships etc. What relief will this view be to someone in a war zone for example? As for the guiding light - where is it? What is it and why don't we all follow it?
Was not Buddha’s last words "Be lamps unto yourselves"?
They were - in the context that you should check out the teachings and not follow them with blind faith. He wasn't saying go and make it up for yourself because he had found a valid path where many before him had not.
You are correct, you have no clue what I have learned, and to my knowledge, I havent missed any opportunities and I havent ignored any part of my life either.
Yes - in reference to your last bit about debate - I'm interested in people's opinions on this thread and mean no offense. I will disagree with you if think it valid - particularly about topics I know more about. :biggrin5:
I believe that I chose my life and my lessons before I was born and I believe everyone else did the same. I have suffered also like everyone else. But are all these points reason to not enjoy the aspects of heaven in which I choose to live?
How does it work then? It's a nice thought, and I have heard similar thoughts in Spiritualist churches, but some people choose very horrible lives. Why would they do that? Some people as choose very negative lives serial killers, rapists, murderers, drug dealers, addicts etc etc. How does that work?
As far as reincarnation is concerned there are many different divisions of Buddhism, some dont believe our souls return to earth and others do.
Buddhists are remarkably consistent in their views about the main teachings. The apparent differences are often cultural with different approaches, but the teachings are the same. Buddhists do not admit the prescence of a soul. We are empty of inherent existence - no soul. I think this shows a partial knowledge of Buddhism as it is a key aspect.
I came back to add, every single human being has things they can appreciate. The sooner they concentrate on those, the sooner joy returns and where else is joy but in Heaven.
If only this were true Dizzy. Yes we all appreciate the good things hopefully, but there is no stronger truth than that suffering will return. This is also a key teaching of The Buddha. We live in Samsara, and it is our Karma to experience the suffering of birth, ageing, sickness and death. The richest, luckiest, happiest person in the world will experience this, and at the point of their death will suffer as much, maybe more than the poorest person, becase they are loosing so much. The transience of our happiness is a fact of our lives.
I try to keep happy though. :lol:
Pardon me asking - If heaven is real, physical and solid - then where is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by caddy_caddy
How do humans who have died fit in? Do they regain their old body - as some Christians assert, or is it a new body?
if you accept that Adam is the origin of our species , the very idea comes from God not human and inherited from Adam to his descendants
But the original article points to the development of the idea of heaven at a particular time in history. Why wasn't the idea of heaven, as conceived by the modern person, explained earlier?
You see this is why its not recommended to discuss religion in polite company. I will try for the last time to get my point across, if after that you dont get it... then its simply not your time. I can do no more, so I will not return to this thread.
As I said before, irrespective of the difficulties we face [war, poverty] we have that much more to appreciate if we only open our eyes to see. You say further on in your post that we hopefully appreciate and there is the key... most people DONT stop to appreciate what they have got. Most people only focus on what they want, they dont stop to smell the roses until old age. If you dont believe me there is more than enough poems and stories to back my case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Most people dont appreciate their eyesight, hearing etc. Now if they began to be grateful rather than always wanting then their lives would vastly improve in the present moment and thats all we have Paul. Suffering is a function of the past, there is no getting away with it. But then how could you ever know this until you try? But you wont try, because you already believe you've got the answers.
Lets put it a different way, if I chose to only focus on the suffering in my life then I would sooner die. So its a case of each to their own. As long as I know that Nikolai and I are in agreement, his is the only opinion that matters to me.. you forget he was born into the Eastern spirituality and culture and he has an excellent understanding of Buddhism as well as other Spiritual philosophies.
From what I have witnessed throughout my life, people from the West often dont understand interpretations of many Eastern Beliefs Systems... like this one of Buddha for example: As far as Buddha's last words "Be lamps unto yourselves"? are concerned I interpret them exactly as those 4 words were intended... I am not going to add words into his mouth as you have done. But hey, if you and Atheist are on the same page I certainly will not interfere.
Underestimating my abilities again I see, like I said before... if Nikolai had said I was naive in my beliefs on Eastern Philosophies then I would have been offended. But he is too gentle to say anything like that, as he would rather provide guidance. But its not necessary in this case cos if you look back on the comments you will see he agrees with my posts. But more to the point regarding the quote above, you can NOT know any better than anyone until the day you die. All that we read was written by man and so those texts are just man-made concepts... for sure no one can know more, but our personal Light guides us to a timely understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
The rest of your post shows you have much to learn and dont really understand the most basic purpose for our Souls reincarnated. Its obviously not your time to grasp the depths of life's meaning yet. There is nothing wrong with this, we are all on a different rung on the treadmill of our own making and understanding and I do not profess to know everything either [indeed thats impossible]. If you read through previous comments of mine and Nikolai's, I believe it might become clearer with regard to the purpose of reincarnation.
And again, I learn more from those born into Eastern cultures than I do from anyone in the West on mattes of spiritual growth and understanding.
I feel this is the wisest approach.
I think it would be best if there were really a hell, but no heaven - so then the reward for being good would be oblivion, and the avoidance of eternal damnation. It'd be interesting to see how many theists would sign up for that deal.