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Ha ha, no I am quite amused by Lord Henry's views on women and marriage, though I can see how others might be annoyed. Is Lord Henry evil? Do you think so?Quote:
Originally Posted by caspian
I think that Dorian is very much under Lord Henry's spell, so I'm not surprised how Dorian is able to kill his conscience relatively easily.
Neely's enthusiasm is infectious. I'll be picking up a copy of Dorian Gray tomorrow (from either the library or a friend) and will start re-reading it immediately (only the second time for me).
Wow neely and Quark! Amazing! I've had to take a little hiatus from the book (moving + college assignments!) I'll be back to it next week to give my 2 cents worth!
But i will say this... I find Dorians character flat and irritating. I think Henry is fantastic!
Yes, it's complicating if you consider Wilde himself said the main characters were reflections of himself: "Basil Hallward is what I think I am: Lord Henry is what the world thinks me: Dorian is what I would like to be—in other ages, perhaps"Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
I wonder if Wilde relied on strong Faustian theme of the book saying "moral is too obvious"
Lord Henry plays evil role. After all his cynical, hedonistic wordview & his French poisonous book destroys Dorian.
Another thing, we don't learn much about Dorian's sins. we're aware there were drugs, prostitutes, murder crime. Wilde made interesting statement : "Each man sees his own sin in Dorian Gray. What Dorian Gray's sins are no one knows. He who finds them has brought them."
Any ideas for Dorian's possible sins? :confused5:
It's been a while since I've looked in on this thread. Sorry about that. I was trying to get another thread going on Our Mutual Friend, and things got busy. I wasn't even sure the discussion was still going until caspian just posted.
That's certainly the ideal for Wilde, but the text seems to show how distant that ideal is. One can't combine art and life successfully in The Picture of Dorian Gray. If they could, you would think Lord Henry or Dorian would have done it. Unfortunately, the ugly and mundane of everyday life infringes on Dorian. I think this is a problem that Wilde explores in "The Soul of Man Under Socialism." It's been a while since I read that, but I remember Wilde pointing out how human necessities and the carking cares of life prevent certain segments of the population from achieving the aesthete lifestyle. I wonder whether we're getting some of that argument infused into The Picture of Dorian Gray.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Here Be SpoilersQuote:
Originally Posted by caspian
Well, he "ruins" some women, crushes a tortoise, stabs someone, takes drugs, gets a friend hopelessly in debt. Those are some sins that come to mind. Wilde does leave room for the imagination to invent, though. There could be so much more Dorian is doing--at least, that's what Wilde wants us to think.
*Potential spoilers throughout* I suppose.
Yes that’s certainly an interesting point. Wilde failed to combine art and life too, as did Dorian. (I’m talking about living life as the ultimate form of art, living through passion, experience, as per Pater and Lord Henry’s call for a sort of new ideal based on the Greek model - which Wilde was so fond of.) I don’t think that Dorian necessary fails due to the mundane of everyday life, I think he fails because he begins to develop a conscious and perhaps it is impossible to live this way without combining life with crime, but it is certainly a possibility none-the-less. It’s quite a large area of thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Yes “The Soul of Man Under Socialism” deals with such issues indeed, though it could really be seen as a utopian text whereby this particular breed of socialism/communism is seen as a potential towards true expressive individualism. Machines will do with ugly jobs of the future so that mankind can be truly free to create beautiful things and live out beautiful, artistic lives. Of course it is never touched upon how this utopianism will come about, but still, no map that doesn’t feature Utopia is not a map at all...
Yes they are certainly important quotes from Wilde on the novel. Wilde’s certainly plainly aware of Faust in that sense and no doubt influenced by that mode one way or another.Quote:
Yes, it's complicating if you consider Wilde himself said the main characters were reflections of himself: "Basil Hallward is what I think I am: Lord Henry is what the world thinks me: Dorian is what I would like to be—in other ages, perhaps"
I wonder if Wilde relied on strong Faustian theme of the book saying "moral is too obvious"
Lord Henry plays evil role. After all his cynical, hedonistic wordview & his French poisonous book destroys Dorian.
Another thing, we don't learn much about Dorian's sins. we're aware there were drugs, prostitutes, murder crime. Wilde made interesting statement : "Each man sees his own sin in Dorian Gray. What Dorian Gray's sins are no one knows. He who finds them has brought them."
Any ideas for Dorian's possible sins?
I find it interesting that you say Lord Henry is evil or plays an evil role. Certainly his words could be seen as poisonous, but do we consider him evil because of it, or does he merely reflect what is evil or corrupt within us?
Yes Wilde used that last quote against moral criticisms of the novel and it is a good way to get out of the idea of the book being a corruptive influence, but really it also functions again as a mirror to reflect the “sins” of the reader or the constraints of Victorian or indeed modern society.
I thought this book was good on the whole, though I felt it to be missing a particular element I can't quite put my finger on. Its as if it was on the precipice of being a great novel for me but for some inexpressible reason fell into the "simply good" classification.
For me the novels strong points were the ambiguous ending and Lord Henry's inexhaustible wit and it's concomitant social commentary on the high classes. I think a problem chapter for me was the one filled with obscure allusion (at least to me) after obscure allusion.
Towards the end of the novel I wondered if Freud was a fan of Wilde as I was constantly reminded of his theory on Id, Ego, and Superego, in relation to Lord Henry, Dorian, and Basil.
I had read somewhere also that at the end of his life Wilde had written a letter lamenting the degree to which his life was led hedonistically and as a result caused him to fail to consider others well-being. This letter was written after the publication of this book though and so I wondered what sort of contrasts there were between his attitudes on the initial composition of the book and his reflection on it years later?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
You guys are much harder on Lord Henry than I am. I always took him to represent some kind of balance between decadence and responsibility. It's Dorian who spins out of control. Henry does persuade Dorian into doing many of the things he does, but it seems like Dorian is reinterpreting Henry as much as he is following him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rores28
Yes sorry the ordering of the names and terms is confusing. I actually see Lord Henry more as the Ego, and Dorian as the Id. While Dorian feels remorse occasionally it always proves exceptionally fleeting and shallow.
Lord Henry on the other hand seems to epitomize talking the talk but not walking the walk. I felt like Dorian is what Lord Henry wishes he could be but doesn't have the balls so to speak. He already idealizes Dorian for his beauty and the only way he could get better if he were to embody and execute Henry's ideals. I felt like both he and Basil were vying for a behavior of which they respectively approved so that they could live vicariously through this perfect shell of a man.
No, I'm not criticising Lord Henry, I'm merely playing devil's advocate - I was just interested in what the other guy said about Lord Henry. Personally I find him quite fascinating, quite delicious, but I would be interested, as always, if someone wanted to argue that he was an evil character - I certainly try not to close any doors!Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Thanks for that. I thought that a fair summing up of the novel actually, I mean that you said it was good, bordering on great but something missing. Personally, I think that the novel form is not Wilde's strongest - regardless as to how much I do love the novel - I think Wilde is stronger in drama and short story, but strongest of all in conversation, of course, in person, but we'll never have that option I'm afraid - no matter how much I hope for it to happen - I just have to settle for meeting him in my head!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rores28
The chapter that is filled with allusion sounds like it is most likely Dorian's love of the yellow book (ch 9) which is based mostly on A Rebours by JK Huysmans. It is the chapter where Dorian becomes fascinated by the character of the novel and follows his addiction of expensive jewells and rich gowns etc, and I think that the chapter works in relation to this.
Yes the Freud stuff is certainly an interesting angle and certainly worth looking into I think.
I think that the letter you are talking about is De Profundis (from the depths) which was published after Wilde's death in 1905, well the edited version was and written near the end of Wilde's time in prison, 1897. This was the long letter which was written to Douglas but is really much more than a letter of course, it is a work of art in itself, some actually consider it to be one of Wilde's best work, certainly perhaps his most moving. Yes there is a sort of out-pouring of grief in this brilliant piece where as you say Wilde does lament his actions in a way, but he is more angry with himself for not breaking with Douglas which directly lead to his own downfall than anything else. I think that if you read the letter (which you really should) you can't fail to notice that Wilde is a broken man, or almost a broken man at this point, so that the tone and mood which Wilde writes is immediately contrasted with anything Wilde ever wrote previously. One thing that comes through in the full letter certainly though is Wilde's position to art, something that I am personally very interested in. It is clear that Wilde's devotion to art is unfaltering and is as strong as it was previous to his downfall - in this respect nothing has changed. Again he is angry with himself for allowing his own art to be ruined by Douglas's influence - which was undoubtedly bad and certainly stopped Wilde producing more written work. One of the problems that Wilde had was not creativity, he was buzzing with all sorts of incredible stories, it was actually being bothered or focused to putting the things down on paper and whenever Douglas was with him he hardly ever had the time to do so, Douglas was always insistent that they live life to the full and dine everywhere (on Wilde's money as always). Anyway, I'm just rambling now - in short, yes there is a difference in tone between Dorian Gray '91 and De Profundis '97 certainly, and many regrets of all kinds, but still Wilde's devotion to art was as unfaltering as ever. Though there are many, many things in the letter, you need to read it, one thing is for sure he was clearly pained that he would never see his children again which must have been quite unbearable- I find the whole piece very, very moving indeed as do all Wilde fans I think.
I've wanted to read that book for a while now, but its not so easy to come by in Jakarta, although I did just pick of a book of his fairy tales.
Oh excellent they are wonderful, enjoy. Can't you get DG through Amazon.com?
I've never tried Amazon, but I've heard shipping to Indonesia through Amazon is a pretty expensive and the shipping cost is usually much more than the book. Plus it can take a quite a while to get here. Then there are the concerns about using the local postal system with anything expensive. Since I've got enough reading to keep me busy until I go back to the US in July, I'll probably just wait until then and buy it. There are plenty of great books to choose from out here, but its hard to pick out one book in particular to go buy unless its a recent best seller or you get lucky and chance upon it.
Oh right, I see. As long as you have enough to be reading, and certainly you will enjoy Wilde's short stories, then that's OK, excellent.
try ebay. :)
Hello. Has everybody read the book who had started it at the beginning of this thread? I was just interested in hearing your overall thoughts on it either way. I am very interested in what people say about my favourite little novel, good or bad, it doesn't matter. Honestly I won't bite. It is just that you can never get that first reading experience again and I like to see what others think of it you see.
Aside from that have we any more thoughts we want to open up about this work? Anything we want to push forward? Is there anything you want to raise in regards to Wilde's little extended prose project.
OK one question to those new to the novel at least, what did you think of the Sybil Vane episode?
My approach to "Dorian Grey" is more "faustian approach". So it's kind of natural if I see in Lord Henry evil Mephistopheles.
We don't know how much Lord Henry is involved in Dorian Grey's sins. We know he doesn't know about Dorian's prime -murder crime. But he knows about his other possible sins. Ruined innocent girls? He's fine with that -"nothing dreadful". He keeps encouraging Dorian to seek pleasure without regard for others.
Well, maybe I'm hard on him, I never got a chance to read the book, I listned to CD book. Dialogs are big part of the book, so actually it's nicer to listen to them than reading. I don't think that I missed out something.
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It was very interesting "reading". Thank you, Neely.:)
Neely are really prepared for my honesty? I could not finish it. This is my second time reading the book and although i finished it the first time i just could not do it this time. As much as i admired the witticisms Wilde voiced through the character Henry, I just found the story tiresome. I think i'll stick with Dr Faustus which is by far the more superior of the two stories.
I saying that i have really enjoyed reading the discussion going on and hopefully next years Dublin: one city one book will appeal to me more and i really hope some of you will join in again next April. :) I'll see if i can get some inside info from the Irish Times before next Aprils is announced. :)
Excellent, thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it. There is a small discussion going on about Dorian Gray here which you might be interested in:Quote:
Originally Posted by caspian
http://www.online-literature.com/for...380#post895380
It is more connected to Lord Henry but it might be of interest to you :) especially as the Faustian thing has been mentioned.
That's OK Niamh, at least you had read it previous then. I started To The Lighthouse last month but had to put it on hold because it takes too much time and concentration then I have at present, though I am a fan of Woolf generally, she demands a lot from her readers certainly!
I've never fully read the Fautus myself as of yet, though I am fully aware of it through secondary material of course, though that is not like me I have usually read the primary text first, but I can be expected to have read everything. :biggrin5:
I must say i'm quite surprised you havent read it Neely! Better put it on your to read list. I think its fantastic! Marlowe was a genius!
Yes, I've read other Marlowe work such as Edward II, and it's duly ordered to be read very soon. Really though I'm struggling to read anything much these past couple of weeks, I'm feeling quite stressed and I can't concentrate on anything more than simple (but brilliant) stuff like Wodehouse - it's not like me.