School Dress Codes? Uniforms?

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Originally Posted by AuntShecky

I think the uniform issue -- as well as locker searches, metal detectors, sweeps for contraband (i.e., aspirin, Midol, cough drops) is a symptom of one of the things wrong with our educational system.

First of all, there is a deep-seated distrust of students, manifested by the fact that many of our public schools are run as if they were medium-security prisons.

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I think that uniforms and all the searches that you list here are different sorts of issues: the searches, detectors, et al. . .communicate, as you note, suspicion of covert activities, that the students are hiding something. Uniforms aren't that way: you're either wearing it or you're not. And if you're not (or have manipulated it in some way), then go home, take a 0 for the day. And come back when you're ready.

Lesson #1 learned: if you want to break the rules for something as small and petty as showing a little more leg, then you deserve to suffer the consequences when they're small and, relatively, harmless. Lesson #2 learned: sometimes you have to follow the rules, even if you don't like them. Honestly, the whining about I hear about having to wear uniforms reminds me of something my 5-year old said this morning: "But daddy, I really, really, really want cake for breakfast! Cake is so yummy!" That may be so, and when she's and adult she can eat cake for breakfast if she wants, but today, it's wheat toast and a banana.

I think, Auntie, that your concerns about school searches and similar paranoia, established after the Columbine shootings (which to me, did more than any political policy to change the structure and tenor of US education) are a truly severe problem. And the US needs to lighten up (a lot) on the prison element of school.

As a side note, I'm not all crazy about uniforms myself. I just posted the question because a personal observation got me thinking about the connection between dress standards and education.

Here it is: In the small town in which I live, there are two schools, the larger public school, and the smaller Catholic school. The Catholic school doesn't require uniforms, but the dress code there is MUCH more stringent and enforced than the public school. And, the education and overall moral and social preparedness of the students at the Catholic school is leaps and bounds beyond that of the public school system. (And this Catholic school is light on the Catholic, really light on the Catholic, non-believers can opt-out of Mass, do independent projects during religious class. . .).

Anyway, my kid is in the public school where I see the most slovenly dressed students using foul, inarticulate language and rude, rough behavior. Now, I'm no fool: I know there are a lot of socio-economic issues at work here too that far outplay role of strict dress code. But, I wondered, surely the dress code is doing something, right?

Maybe it's doing nothing, but it doesn't seem that way. At the very least, it seems to establish a more consistent, studious air about the place. . .a respectability that affect a lot of things indirectly. I've never claimed that dress codes or uniforms are problem solvers; in truth the large issues that you rightly bring up here cannot be solved by one major change, but by many, many small adjustments to mood, structure, curriculum, and (ultimately) the social values of the citizenry.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

1. School uniforms are often very expensive. Certainly more expensive than normal everyday clothes which are subject to considerably more open market forces. A basic school blazer in UK costs £20. I can’t recall ever having the need to spend that much money on one item of clothing for either of my kids. In fact I could probably get them 4 decent quality jumpers for the same amount of money.

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Haha. Blazer is like $150 here. :nonod:

I like uniforms because they are actually a source of income for the school, a small amount of the profit actually goes to them. It also gives them a reason to fundraise on gold-coin donation casual days. Say you get a dollar from over a thousand kids at a school, it does add up and there is little work on the schools behalf. They can use that to buy so many more things.

That, and my PE shorts are the most comfortable things I own.

And still, you can be descriminated against for your uniform. I mean, I've had numerous complaints from other students about my dress being too long, that being the correct length.

Unless it is properly policed by the school, then it defeats the purpose. Our school is pretty strict, but there are things that they let pass. They are yet to send a thousand girls home for having short dresses.

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Originally Posted by The Comedian

Anyway, my kid is in the public school where I see the most slovenly dressed students using foul, inarticulate language and rude, rough behavior. Now, I'm no fool: I know there are a lot of socio-economic issues at work here too that far outplay role of strict dress code. But, I wondered, surely the dress code is doing something, right?

Maybe it's doing nothing, but it doesn't seem that way. At the very least, it seems to establish a more consistent, studious air about the place. . .a respectability that affect a lot of things indirectly. I've never claimed that dress codes or uniforms are problem solvers; in truth the large issues that you rightly bring up here cannot be solved by one major change, but by many, many small adjustments to mood, structure, curriculum, and (ultimately) the social values of the citizenry.

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I think it also has to do with discipline. When parents are paying to send you somewhere they tend to not be happy when you get expelled. We pushed the boundries but we knew how far we could push until the hammer was dropped and (and by pushing boundries I mean not having out blouses tucked in and our socks slouched down).

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Originally Posted by papayahed

I think it also has to do with discipline. When parents are paying to send you somewhere they tend to not be happy when you get expelled. We pushed the boundries but we knew how far we could push until the hammer was dropped and (and by pushing boundries I mean not having out blouses tucked in and our socks slouched down).

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Oh yes, I agree. Still, as Catholic schools go, this one is cheap -- really cheap; most in town but save the poorest could afford the tuition outright, and the school has a strong enough endowment to "sponsor" kids from families that can't pay the tuition. However, you bring up my point that the enforcement of the dress code is a part of how discipline and respect is crated, like a section in a quilt.

EDIT: your new avatar is about as awesome as I've seen here. It make me want to burst out with "there's one; set for stun", every time I see it.

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Originally Posted by AuntShecky

...The hierarchy goes like this:
1. State Education Dept.
2. Local School Board
3. Administrators
4. Teachers' unions
5. Taxpayers
6. Parents
and dead last -- 7. students

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That's how it goes? Not for us when it comes to uniforms.
1. Education Dept. of Australia
2. " " of the State.
3. Catholic Education Department
4. Board of Catholic Education at our school
5. Chaplain
6. Principal
7. Deputy Pricipals
8. Student body, represented by the school captians
9. Year Level Coordinators
10. The janitors
11. Parents.
Yea, parents don't score out too well around here.

Confidential to TheComedian: Way "back in the day" the nuns used to get the tape measure out and measure the hems of uniform skirts to determine whether they weren't too many inches up from the floor. The good sisters spent time on this that might have been more productively spent on The Hundred Years War or differential equations.

And Heathcliff, you're absolutely right about parents being deligated to the penultimate bottom layer of the totem pole. Teachers (and especially schools top-heavy with over-paid administrators) give lip service to "welcoming input from parents." In most cases,however, when it comes time to "implement" --a favorite word of educationists -- the parents' suggestions, the first four levels of the hierarchy push their own agenda instead.

*shrug* When I was in highschool, I used to wish that we had uniforms. I hated having to focus on finding something cool looking to wear at seven in the morning when I was still half-asleep. I don't think that we'd have to worry about kids "losing their individuality" or whatever, like a lot of people said, kids would still form cliques; this means that they're still defining themselves as something.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

*shrug* When I was in highschool, I used to wish that we had uniforms. I hated having to focus on finding something cool looking to wear at seven in the morning when I was still half-asleep. I don't think that we'd have to worry about kids "losing their individuality" or whatever, like a lot of people said, kids would still form cliques; this means that they're still defining themselves as something.

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I have to say it was nice. My biggest decision was what color socks and (if) sweater I wanted to wear. Even that wasn't much of a decision as my choices were gray, blue, black, white.

Having lived in both Canada and Australia, in Canada I went to a public school and had to wear casual clothes and in Australia I was forced to go to a private catholic school and wear a uniform.

Heres my findings.

1) Uniforms reduce bullying : Dont know about you, but I cant remember when the last time I was picked on for a piece of clothing, probably about grade 5. Generally people will just single someone out for the way they act, or speak, or who they hang out with rather then what they wear. It doesnt really cut back on bullying at all, just makes the bullies come up with even more rediculous reasons to single u out.

2) Uniforms make it easier to pick what to wear: Yes...every...single...day. The exact same outfit, shoes. There has never been an experience so creatively stifling in my life. There is something incredibly creepy about sitting in a school assembly, and seeing every single person wearing the same thing, with the same shoes, and the exact same hair spare for one or two "rebels". Its not natural, you feel like another number, and at the end of the day its more about control and oppression then it is about making life easier.

I think uniforms should be abolished, even when we get older and submit to a life of survitude and semi-concious interactions we are permited to wear what we like, though some companies do have uniforms, they are generally retail. As if kids in school dont have enough trouble trying to find their personal identity and style without being forced to look the exact same as everyone else. Its inhuman. I hate them

Inhuman is such a strong word for a dress code. There are far stricter regimes in the world where you might criticise strongly for their dress codes, but inhuman - too strong.

You said yourself that bullying about clothes is reduced, but that clothing is very important to young people. At least that important aspect of individuality is protected.

I think that uniforms encourage a search for personal identity. Being compelled to wear the same thing makes the wearer wish to be more individual. But then teen individuality is often about identity within an individual tribe rather than real individuality.

Later clothes may become...just another thing. This whole I'm an individual thing - my clothes make a statement about who I am - is really smoke and mirrors. People copy others, though they don't like to admit it. We are social animals and gravitate towards people like ourselves - clothes - music - whatever, but behind these things lie industry and money. A true individual would find it hard to fit into a social group.

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Originally Posted by Nax

1) Uniforms reduce bullying : Dont know about you, but I cant remember when the last time I was picked on for a piece of clothing, probably about grade 5. Generally people will just single someone out for the way they act, or speak, or who they hang out with rather then what they wear. It doesnt really cut back on bullying at all, just makes the bullies come up with even more rediculous reasons to single u out.

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Haha. We'd get picked on, despite the uniform. It is surprisingly complicated to wear it correctly and 'correctly' at the same time.

Actually. we got picked on because of the uniform - not within school, but by the kids from every other school nearby.

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Originally Posted by AuntShecky

And Heathcliff, you're absolutely right about parents being deligated to the penultimate bottom layer of the totem pole. Teachers (and especially schools top-heavy with over-paid administrators) give lip service to "welcoming input from parents." In most cases,however, when it comes time to "implement" --a favorite word of educationists -- the parents' suggestions, the first four levels of the hierarchy push their own agenda instead.

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I know. Most of the time, if the school has a problem, we'll get three lunchtimes and an afterschool before they go to the parents with a problem.
They have student services, who are able to organise meetings with them, however they don't even know I exist. Like, that many of my friends are sent there all the time, social services comes looking for them, at random. They saod they'd come to everyone and speaek to every student. They haven't spoken to me. I'm ironically hurt, I need to go and see social services about it. :cryin: :lol:
Parents wouldn't have a clue. They should. Still, we have a parents comittee, only out of a large school only a few people show up. Half the time, its like they don't even care. My parents do, they are constantly hassling the school.
The school only talks to them if it is bothering their life. We come to parent teacher interviews, teachers don't even want to see me. They say there aren't any problems so they don't want to see us.
Our school is still pretty good though.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

Actually. we got picked on because of the uniform - not within school, but by the kids from every other school nearby.

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Our school doesn't get picked on. Overall, we out-number the surrounding schools, so they won't mess with us.
We're a private school so when they bother us we make ourself superior...
Actually, we're pretty decent. We won't fight unless we have to.

Dress codes are common here. I have seen chicks in their flashy dresses, at times they are so much exposed to the extent man starts salivating. They are dressed up but the hidden desire is to expose all. The dress becomes an undesired mask. Now people here stick to certain dress codes except for Friday. Friday becomes the day that unfurls what chicks are below their dresses.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

This whole I'm an individual thing - my clothes make a statement about who I am - is really smoke and mirrors. People copy others, though they don't like to admit it. We are social animals and gravitate towards people like ourselves - clothes - music - whatever, but behind these things lie industry and money. A true individual would find it hard to fit into a social group.

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Just one question:

What makes a teenager/school-going child different from an adult? Why is it that the adult (unless he needs to be recognised as policeman, shop-assistant, fireman, railway worker etc) is allowed his own clothing while the child/teenager is forced to walk around in sometimes the most ridiculous unfitting uniform? Surely every child goes to school these days. We do not need to recognise them for it. So why have to wear a uniform? It does not serve any purpose.

Don't get me wrong, I am not for shorts in school, or over-sexy stuff. But really, I do not see the need for any uniform whatsoever, unless it serves a clear purpose, which one in school clearly does not.

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Originally Posted by kiki1982

Just one question:

What makes a teenager/school-going child different from an adult? Why is it that the adult (unless he needs to be recognised as policeman, shop-assistant, fireman, railway worker etc) is allowed his own clothing while the child/teenager is forced to walk around in sometimes the most ridiculous unfitting uniform? Surely every child goes to school these days. We do not need to recognise them for it. So why have to wear a uniform? It does not serve any purpose.

Don't get me wrong, I am not for shorts in school, or over-sexy stuff. But really, I do not see the need for any uniform whatsoever, unless it serves a clear purpose, which one in school clearly does not.

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Because, as I said in the post above, it helps kids by taking the pressure off them. As Nax said, clothes are important to young people in a way they are not to older people. It serves a clear purpose in this, and there is some evidence that it helps behaviour - schools here in England that have been turned around have had - but only as one aspect of that process - uniforms imposed.

Kids are at school for quite a short time, and then will have all their lives to express themselves. I still think kids need guidance even if they don't like it, and in this issue adults setting the agenda are not clouded by the small concerns kids have about uniforms.

Don't get me wrong, I believe there should be a dress-code. People do not go to work in a track-suit so they should also not go to school in them. But I don't see how a dreary uniform would benefit them at all.

Stuffing teenagers all in the same suit will not automatically condition them to express themselves better. It is the parents, the school etc who need to take care of that. If one is saddled with bad parents, one gets stuck with clothing. And outside the school it can still become an issue of expression. So, the argument, to me, does not hold up. School is not 24 hours a day.

That said though, I don't mean to say that teenagers/children should be allowed to walk about anyhow they like. They should learn from the start that there are certain conventions, because that is life. Life is not made up of freedom, but of duty. In that, they should dress a certain way that is decent, but I don't agree that they should walk around in the same old thing every day, all of them. Not everyone looks nice in the same colour, not everyone likes the same colour. At any rate, to me, the problem would change place. If it is not their jumper hey express themselves with, it is their pen-bag, their tattoo, their sports shoes, their whatever.

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Originally Posted by kiki1982

Don't get me wrong, I believe there should be a dress-code. People do not go to work in a track-suit so they should also not go to school in them. But I don't see how a dreary uniform would benefit them at all.

Stuffing teenagers all in the same suit will not automatically condition them to express themselves better. It is the parents, the school etc who need to take care of that. If one is saddled with bad parents, one gets stuck with clothing. And outside the school it can still become an issue of expression. So, the argument, to me, does not hold up. School is not 24 hours a day.

That said though, I don't mean to say that teenagers/children should be allowed to walk about anyhow they like. They should learn from the start that there are certain conventions, because that is life. Life is not made up of freedom, but of duty. In that, they should dress a certain way that is decent, but I don't agree that they should walk around in the same old thing every day, all of them. Not everyone looks nice in the same colour, not everyone likes the same colour. At any rate, to me, the problem would change place. If it is not their jumper hey express themselves with, it is their pen-bag, their tattoo, their sports shoes, their whatever.

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I agree that uniforms in themselves do nothing much for behaviour - except take away the clothes bully thing. It has to be the whole package of improvement.

Bad parents are bad for everyone - particularly for their own kids, but you can't run a dress code on what a minority of parents may or may not do.

As for learning appropriate dress codes - the simplest thing is a uniform. Of course it doesn't suit everyone, but that's not it's purpose. Also in the UK - can't speak for other countries - the school year is 38 weeks out of 52, and only 7-8 hours out of the day at that. That's lots of time to get individual with the responsibility of dressing appropriately for some of the time.

Don't you think aged people like myself, and younger people didn't have to wear uniforms and disliked them? We did. Some of us went on to be punks, rockers, new romantics etc - (I'm showing my age now :D) - as soon as we got out of school. But what happens - you just forget about it when you leave and wear what you want. Those fabled school days fade into the mists of time and you realise that although you were a bit irritated by them at the time, it just served a short term purpose, and had no effect beyond that.

You're right about the little individual tweaks to appearance - the hair, the pens whatever. It also happened in rugby teams I played in - some players tucked in their collar to look bulkier in the shoulders, some had their socks down. Human nature - but I don't see it as an argument against uniforms.

I don't like the school uniforms as an item myself. My ex-head that I used to work for used to wear the school uniform as well as the kids. A ghastly Green, but if I was the Head on £100,000 or so smackers a year, then bring it on. I'd definately make the kids wear it as well, and not just because I felt I had to. :D

Dress codes pretty much apply anywhere anyway.
Like showing up to a job interview in the city, you're not going to go wearing an empty sack of potatoes.
Our school says they reserve the right to decide if we're dressed properly even on casual days.
Still, pretty much all of the girls in our school have their skirts too short, the school can't throw them all out though.
What amazes me is that their parents let them leave the house in some of their ridiculous getups, and how they can survive having to catch a train at the Station.

Oh what, now ur gonna start bashing on wearing potato sacks? Jeez strict much.

I understand the thought behind it, but I dont believe it really works to that effect. Alot of the time it doesnt stop it at all, like the poorer kids cant afford the flashy shoes and dress pants at my school, so they are forced to buy cheaper crapper immitations and are picked on (just like with casuals)

Its trying to cover up a symptom rather then address the disease persay.

I am backing Kiki, Can you imagine the uproar in almost every facet of society if a government imposed a uniform code for everyone, all day, till you got home? Regardless if you were at work or anywhere else you still had to wear it? It would be rediculous. Why is it ok just because they are at school? I dont think that a service which is being paid for by the family should have any say at all in how a child dresses, or wears their hair, or what shoes they have on, as long as it applies to the normal standards of society.

Oh my, this is starting to remind me of my place of work. We have a very specific dress code for our employees and for any contractors working onsite. One of the regulations is that anyone working in the unit must be clean shaven. Contractors are always given a copy of our regulations before they show up. It's amazing the guys that still show up with full beards and then whine and try to talk their way out of it when I hand them a cheap razor. The rules aren't going to change either you choose to follow or you don't work at the site. The point is that I have enough problem with the few contractors and employees that I have in comparison to the hundreds of whiney, angsty kids trying to push boundries in any one school. It's a wonder schools haven't gone to uniforms a lot sooner.

We have long done away with any formal dress code at my work, and most people don't abuse it. Supposedly you are to dress business casual, but some people do look shabby.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

We have a very specific dress code for our employees and for any contractors working onsite. One of the regulations is that anyone working in the unit must be clean shaven.

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Just as a matter of interest, does the work involve anything that can only be properly done without facial hair?

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

Just as a matter of interest, does the work involve anything that can only be properly done without facial hair?

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Nooo, the work has nothing to do with facial hair. The location of the work is the issue, there are times when respirators need to be worn.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

Nooo, the work has nothing to do with facial hair. The location of the work is the issue, there are times when respirators need to be worn.

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The military has a no-facefungus policy for the same reason - bio chemical attack.

I have a facefungus policy imposed upon me by my wife. She says it covers the fact that I have no chin. :nonod:

For the anti-uniform posters I think you can see with Virgil and Papyahead's posts that dress codes are normal whether informal or strictly enforced, and certainly for interviews.

If nothing else - though there plenty of pro uniform argments - it conveys this truth. None of us who are working can truly wear what we want.

Kids need to know this as well - and they need to learn how to just get on with it. There's usually no debate, and most adults get on with it because it's for the money. I need money - give me the orange dungarees with the yellow wellingtons and I'll do your job. No problem.:D

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

For the anti-uniform posters I think you can see with Virgil and Papyahead's posts that dress codes are normal whether informal or strictly enforced, and certainly for interviews.

If nothing else - though there plenty of pro uniform argments - it conveys this truth. None of us who are working can truly wear what we want.

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That's not true. And even if it were true, if you call conventions in clothing 'uniform', then you need another word for the kind of identical and prescribed garb that we're talking about here. And lastly, the difference is that if you impose a uniform in order to do a job, the person on whom you are imposing it has the option of telling you to shove your job right up your arse - but a school-child doesn't have that option.

I have a prescribed dress code at work too. I wear navy blue scrubs with a white under shirt every single day. It's even less stimulating than my secondary school uniform haha.

Mark is right though, the difference is that I could always choose to quit my job. I still don't feel strongly for or against uniforms.

Edit: I secretly love my scrubs though, they make me look so sexy and ''medical''.

I can wear whatever the hell I want at work, and it's a professional environment, requiring me to deal with property (horses) worth quite literally millions of dollars. I guess I'll count myself lucky, and not abuse the privilege- I always wear CLEAN blue jeans, clean polo shirts with the barn logo, and neatly laced boots, with my hair up under a hat. My piercings and tattoos aren't a problem, luckily.

I disagree with the school uniform policy- kids know what kids belong to what clique, regardless of clothing. Kids know which kids are less privileged, or are nerdy... regardless of what they wear. I don't see how it is disrespectful to not wear a uniform to school. Lots of teachers don't act professionally or merit the respect that is automatically afforded to them, without them earning it... I really fail to see how uniforms convey respect in any way. We had a simple policy at my school, involving how much skin was shown, what was considered 'disrespectful' in terms of imagery on clothing, and those stupid gangsta' pants that show off a boys ***... and our high school was rated third in Canada for achievement by MacLeans magazine...

*I AM SO INCOHERENT RIGHT NOW! Sorry, guys!*

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

That's not true. And even if it were true, if you call conventions in clothing 'uniform', then you need another word for the kind of identical and prescribed garb that we're talking about here. And lastly, the difference is that if you impose a uniform in order to do a job, the person on whom you are imposing it has the option of telling you to shove your job right up your arse - but a school-child doesn't have that option.

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Ok - lots of people can't wear what they want, and lots of people can't tell their bosses to shove their jobs, just like Papayahead's contractors probably can't afford to lose the contract.

You're right - clothing conventions and uniforms are different, but the one is a good training for the other that would be neglected if options to kids were given.

I don't see how it is disrespectful to not wear a uniform to school.
BeccaT

I don't think its just about respect, and I think you're right about kids being able to single out the poor kids, whatever they wear - it's just harder. I'm from a poor family and it could have been harder than it was for me without the uniform.

They began non-uniform days after I left school when my younger siblings were still there. They still talk about how humiliated they felt. My brother is 37 and my sister is 41. Was this anyone else's experience?

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

For the anti-uniform posters I think you can see with Virgil and Papyahead's posts that dress codes are normal whether informal or strictly enforced, and certainly for interviews.

If nothing else - though there plenty of pro uniform argments - it conveys this truth. None of us who are working can truly wear what we want.

Kids need to know this as well - and they need to learn how to just get on with it. There's usually no debate, and most adults get on with it because it's for the money. I need money - give me the orange dungarees with the yellow wellingtons and I'll do your job. No problem.:D

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I don't agree with that conclusion, sorry...

What Papayahead addresses, is safety. If your mask does not fit properly because of your beard and you die, it's the company's fault and the insurrace will not pay up because the employee did not comply with the rules. So, the ban on beards and facial hair serves a clear purpose. Of course, people are still going to whine, but that is because they do not understand it is for their own good. Like truck drivers cannot wear rings (not even wedding rings). Why, because, if their ring gets stuck behind something, they rip their finger off (seen myself).

School uniforms though, as opposed to mere dress codes, do not have a clear purpose and that is why I am against them. If they were to serve a clear purpose (like they do for the police or medical staff), I wouldn't have a problem with them, but they do not. They are not healthier, they do not exclude the student from danger, they do not give auhority, a student should not be recognised from afar.

As opposed to dress codes, I said, because pupils should learn not to walk about in track suits. They should learn to dress properly in a professional environment. That said, there is no need to actually stuff them all into the same thing every single day.

Not to mention that some shops actually charge ridiculous prices for a jumper with a mesely logo on it. So, even for the parents in most cases, it would be better to have none of that.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

You're right - clothing conventions and uniforms are different, but the one is a good training for the other that would be neglected if options to kids were given.

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On the other hand, one might just as easily say that it'll turn kids against that kind of high-handed imposition for life. It did with me. And I know many others who, even in their fifties, will not wear what they are told, simply because that adolescent sense of injustice lingers. Think how much more successful and integrated we might all have been had we seen the conventions of work clothes as an adult domain to be looked forward to, as opposed to an echo of a pointless and arbitrary regime.

Uniforms do have a clear purpose - the main one for me is to take away the clothes discrimination. My futher post elaborates a bit on that.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

On the other hand, one might just as easily say that it'll turn kids against that kind of high-handed imposition for life. It did with me. And I know many others who, even in their fifties, will not wear what they are told, simply because that adolescent sense of injustice lingers. Think how much more successful and integrated we might all have been had we seen the conventions of work clothes as an adult domain to be looked forward to, as opposed to an echo of a pointless and arbitrary regime.

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I can see that. As I've mentioned elsewhere - school is a one stop shop, and as such can't satisfy everyone, or give them what they need. I just think that given this imperfect system - which in my view needs a good overhaul - uniforms are the lesser of the two evils. A school cetainly can't function without discipline, and I think it helps on that front, and it does help the poor kids. My siblings and I used to get uniforms from the local authority, as we weren't well off. They were different to the usual uniforms, but you could blend in.

I'm not for uniforms per se - a different system, smaller teaching units perhaps may not need uniforms. The best option for the situation? Yes in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

Edit: I secretly love my scrubs though, they make me look so sexy and ''medical''.

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Hahahaha!! :hurray: I must pinch your cheeks again... :iagree:

We have a school uniform. It is pretty much ordinary.
We have a blazer that so many people hate wearing during assemblies and to and from school in terms 2, 3 and 4, however us students were the twits who voted it in the the first place, so it apparently is here to stay.
I like it though; it has shoulder-pads. :D :p

One of the reasons for asking children to wear uniform is so that they can be identified outside school; agreed, this has a negative as well as a positive aspect (Big Teacher Is Watching You) but when you are the teacher in charge of a class on a School Trip and you need to herd your thirty or so Little Darlings back to the coach and the Natural History Museum is seething with school parties, believe me, it's useful, nay essential, to be able to spot your own LDs at a glance.

Except....

...the day we took the whole school on a picnic to one of the local parks. Three bus loads of excited five to seven year olds - and guess who was in charge? :yesnod: That's right.... As usual, school uniform was required to be worn, summer uniform was grey shorts and white shirt for boys (no tie required, it was high summer - we used to get that in those days), blue gingham dress for girls, swimsuits and towels in bags if Mum said you could go in the paddling pool (what H&S rules?), packed lunch in bag, all teachers supplied with First Aid kit. Off we went, lovely day had by all, loads of children at the park, we're not the only school making use of the fine weather at the end of term, lots of good social interaction, children from different schools playing together, etc, etc, children happy, teachers happy. Until it's time to go home - must be back by 2.30, gather up children, shepherd them onto the coaches, always a few stragglers but easy to spot them because - they're wearing school uniform! So kasie goes off, rounding up the grey shorts/white shirts and the blue gingham dresses: fine, until a little mite tugs my skirt and says, 'Miss, I'm not in your class'. 'Never mind,' says kasie, 'just get on the coach and we'll find your teacher back at school.' 'But I'm not in your class!' 'Never mind,' and kasie shoos wee girl towards coach, thinking, 'Still two short, must go back with same number as started out'. At coach door, desperate child shrieks, 'Miss, I'm not even in your school!' At which point, kasie realises there are two schools at the park that day with a summer uniform of blue gingham dresses...

So you see, school uniforms don't work.....

(Yes, I did check the coaches to make sure I had not hi-jacked any other children from the school the other side of the park. Yes, I did apologise profusely to traumatised child and returned her to her proper teacher who cackled with hysterical laughter. No, I did not leave any children at the park - not on that occasion, anyway....)

Sorry - this is supposed to be the Serious Discussions thread, isn't it?

:lol: Fortunely the child was assertive enough and knew that she wasn't in your school...

Better to remember what the children in your class look like for real, then. Can't be very hard, because, end of term, you have had them for a whole year. The teachers of teenagers have a few more faces to remember, but it isn't very hard, only remembering names is a problem.

@PaulClem:

It might help the 'poor kids' at frst sight, but in the end, there is always something to pick on if they think you're poor: your bike, your jewellery, even your 'charity' uniform of lesser quality apparently, your coat, the pen you write with, the quality of your school bag, the estate you live on, your accent in some cases even... The problem moves itself. Making kids wear uniforms because of that reason is removing the symptom and not the cause. It's like when you have flu, you take a painkiller for the headache you have. Does it take away the flu? No. It only lightens the load until the painkiller has finished working. If the students have seen the car of father or mother or the house the 'poor' student lives in, they are inevitably going to pick on him. It maybe will last longer, but in the end they will. Better to address the picking (if that is at all possible), than trying to conceal it.

As I said, to me that is not the definition of 'a clear purpose'. If anything, it makes it harder for a teacher to recognise his pupils properly, as Kasie has illustrted, because people tend to look from afar at clothing in order to recognise a person. If you have a full class you go to the Natural History Museum with, and you have had them for a year or more, you will inevitably recognise your pupils because of their style, because of the T-shirt they have worn in your class several times. Try that with a uniform. If there are several schools vsiting with the same thing (because there are only so many uniform colours), it'll be hard to distinguish.

[QUOTE=kiki1982;870214......Better to remember what the children in your class look like for real, then. Can't be very hard, because, end of term, you have had them for a whole year. The teachers of teenagers have a few more faces to remember, but it isn't very hard, only remembering names is a problem..... If anything, it makes it harder for a teacher to recognise his pupils properly, as Kasie has illustrted, because people tend to look from afar at clothing in order to recognise a person. If you have a full class you go to the Natural History Museum with, and you have had them for a year or more, you will inevitably recognise your pupils because of their style, because of the T-shirt they have worn in your class several times. Try that with a uniform. If there are several schools vsiting with the same thing (because there are only so many uniform colours), it'll be hard to distinguish.[/QUOTE]

I knew my own class, kiki - I was in charge of the whole school on that particular occasion, the point at which the buck stopped, newly promoted, it was my first out-of-school-premises responsibilty - stressed doesn't begin to describe it... I actually knew most of the school, about 250 children but Infant schools in UK take in children three times a year (or they did in those days) and some of the tinies had been with us only a few weeks, besides which we had a highly mobile population and some children stayed for only a few weeks beforetheir families moved on again. (And we took them to this huge park! We must have been mad! Mobile phones? Hadn't been invented.) I hasten to add that I wasn't the only teacher there by any means and we had plenty of volunteer Mums as well - it was just that I was acutely aware of my responsibility to return with the same number of children as I started out with - the Head was very concerned about falling roll numbers...

Sorry, I wasn't accusing you of anything. I am sorry if it came out that way. I can imagine that it is STRESS big time in the situation you are described.

In the case you describe, there is no way distinguishing them, not even without uniform then...

My school always went with the teachers of all the classes, but I suppose that doesn't even help in this case, as there were children that were really new...

"I dont think that a service which is being paid for by the family should have any say at all in how a child dresses, or wears their hair, or what shoes they have on, as long as it applies to the normal standards of society. "

Agree, except for the cop-out of the last clause.
Appropriate restrictions might be "as long as it is not deliberately offensive," and "as long as it is not unsafe." T-shirts with offensive slogans, dangly earings, open-toed sandals, for instance, might not be acceptable, but there are probably no rational grounds for objecting to shorts or top hats or shirtless or painted or...

I disagree with that. Sandals are perfectly alright for girls as they are perfectly able to go to work in them in a bank for example. Shirtless is not an option, also not a shirt with offensive stuff on it, because you wouldn't wear it in a highly professional environment.

Dangly earrings though are also alright. So is, for boys (before people start saying that I favour girls at all), 'sportive'-casual: loose shirt, no tie, jeans (not ripped), smart sports shoes etc... It might not be what they want to wear, but it prepares them, within boudaries, for dress codes at work which allow considerable freedom, which a uniform does not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whifflingpin

"I dont think that a service which is being paid for by the family should have any say at all in how a child dresses, or wears their hair, or what shoes they have on, as long as it applies to the normal standards of society. "

Agree, except for the cop-out of the last clause.
Appropriate restrictions might be "as long as it is not deliberately offensive," and "as long as it is not unsafe." T-shirts with offensive slogans, dangly earings, open-toed sandals, for instance, might not be acceptable, but there are probably no rational grounds for objecting to shorts or top hats or shirtless or painted or...

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It's one of the problems of not having a uniform - people begin to interpret in all ways. From uniform to dress code - one way or the other there has to be a rule. Uniforms make the process simpler.