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Since I proposed Amy Lowell, I guess I'll suggest Men, Women and Ghost from 1916, it is in the public domain and available on Project Guttenberg. The collection contains what is probably her most famous poem, "Patterns" as well as some early experimental poetry in free verse, and what Lowell called "polyphonic prose". I don't think she has a chance of being chosen though. haha
To be honest, I read her "Selected Poems" and wasn't very impressed, so I don't think I'll be reading much more of her, unless she wins. Though, I still get a giggle at the fact Pound dubbed her "hippopoetess" because of her obesity, offensive, but hey, it's still kind of funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphanPip
I'm not too attached to the nomination anyway. Pound also derided her form of Imagism as "Amygism".Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
So far, there have been almost no names put forward which I would not enjoy reading.
1.Neruda
2.Baudelaire
3.Leopardi
4.Petrarch
5.Rilke
6.Keats
7.Browning
8.Lorca
9.Shi Jing
10.Graves
I could live with any of those. As far as them being known quantities and represented elsewhere on these boards, I just have to wonder if they've already been done as well as they could be. Have they received the full measure of scrutiny which Roethke or Pasternak enjoyed when the Poetry Club reviewed them? While I have read all of the authors I mention above, I don't feel like I've given them the kind of deep reading they deserve, and that's what I'd like to do this time. As far as Baudelaire goes, it's been a decade since I read Flowers of Evil, and I'd gladly accept the opportunity to reacquaint myself with his work.
I guess I'll add my two cents since I've been reading more poetry than anything else lately. How about some Russian poets, Akhmatova, Pasternak or maybe Czech Jiri Orten?
Also Louise Gluck, has a new collection out. Haven't read any of them.
Lynn... we are already past the nomination stage and in the first round of voting on the nominated poets/works. There is one Russian poet/poetess nominated: Marina Tsvetaeva. In our last incarnation the poetry group discussed Boris Pasternak's works from My Sister- Life.
OK, so voted so far:
Paulclem, Neely, Stlukesguild, Vigil, Mayneverhave, Mortalterror.
Yet to vote:
Ophan Pip, JBI, The Comedian, Mal4Mac, Lynne50 + any other?
I'm looking forward to starting. It should be very informative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Lorca
Leopardi
Graves
Gautier
Simic
Matthews
Drayton
Gautier
Browning
Keats
We probably should have cut down to 5-7. Note, I didn't choose Baudelaire, and was reluctant with Leopardi (and Gautier for that matter) since I probably won't be reading either of these poets in translation most likely, and therefore don't like getting into the mess of over-interpreting over what is written in somebody else's version.
You have put Gautier in there twice.
I don’t necessarily see this as a huge problem, if we are sensible about it. I think that we just have to try and accept the difference in the various translations Vs the original and all the potential issues which arise from it, and not get too heated about it. I would rather face such issues, and inevitably get a few details a little wrong, then have to necessarily limit the discussion to the English language. I'm personally more than happy for original readings (and contexts) to help shed light on translations.Quote:
We probably should have cut down to 5-7. Note, I didn't choose Baudelaire, and was reluctant with Leopardi (and Gautier for that matter) since I probably won't be reading either of these poets in translation most likely, and therefore don't like getting into the mess of over-interpreting over what is written in somebody else's version.
Didn't we have a formula? Something like Numbers 1-3 3 points, 4-6 2 points, and 6-10 one point each?Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
So far the ones with 5 votes are:
Leopardi
Lorca
Browning
4 votes:
Book of songs
Baudelaire
Neruda
Gautier
Petrarch
Rilke
Graves
Stlukes suggested 1st 10 points, 2nd 9 points etc, and I've began to tot them up this way, but I don't suppose it matters as long as we stick to one system.
Go with yours Neely - we'd end up with them ranked that way. :thumbs_upQuote:
Originally Posted by Neely
1. Theophile Gautier
2. Robert Browning
3. Giacomo Leopardi
4. Charles Simic - Jackstraws: Poems
5. Federico Garcia-Lorca- Selected Poems
6. Robert Graves
7. Pablo Neruda - Twenty Love Poems and a Song of Despair
8. Charles Baudelaire - Les Fleurs du mal
9. Rainer Maria Rilke
10. Petrarch – Canzoniere (unspecified translation)
I think we aught to go with this system, and then just knock off half the nominations, then do a select 3 running ballot where one can vote for their own nominations - as I don't know about you guys, but I didn't put mine in any which order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Yes, I'm ok with that. That's actually better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I did put mine in a particular order... ranking first choice on down.
Can we set a deadline and get the works tallied so we can move on to the final vote... top 5?
Ok, how does tomorrow at 6EST we close the poll, and tally things?
AM or PM? Either works fine for me as I've already voted.
PM, AM is too soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
Yes sounds fine to me, time and top 5.
(JBI, you have put Gautier in twice.)
As Dante and Shakespeare are definitely poets, I'll stick with them. The first post doesn't exclude drama, unless it's implicit, but, if so, I'm not "in" enough to "get" that.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
I think you miss one of the main points though Mac which is time. I think it was more or less a unanimous decision upon this point when it was discussed here as was the want to focus on a poem or group of poems:Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=50841
As I say, I would be very happy to dig into Dante in particular myself, though I don’t think this is perhaps the best time and place for it personally. I can’t re-read the whole of Purgatory and digest my thoughts on this with everything else I am reading at the minute, but I can happily manage a few poems. Maybe a few extracts of this would work, but then you would be taking it out of the context of the drama which I don't think would be that helpful to the overall picture of it.
If you are scoring, change the bottom one to Robert Lowell then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Right OK.
Shakespeare and Goethe wrote in verse (at least most of the time), but I wouldn't consider Faust or any of Shakespeare's plays poetry. As for Dante, this really doesn't seem like the place for it. I don't need to tell you how isolating one section of the Comedy takes away from the whole; certainly taking individual cantos would as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
I don't know. I just assumed we would be discussing lyrical poetry.
OK Neely... we're awaiting the results.:crazy:
OK, I've added them up but the results are at home, I'll post them later at around 6pm my time, sorry.
OK, this is the leaderboard according to my calculations:
1 Leopardi – Unspecified 51
2 Pablo Neruda - Twenty Love Poems and a Song of Despair 38
3 Browning – Unspecified 35
4 Federico Garcia-Lorca - Selected Poems 33
5 Gautier – Unspecified 31
6 Baudelaire – Les Fleurs du Mal 30
7 Shi Jing - Book of Songs - Ancient Chinese Poetry 29
8 Rainer Maria Rilke - Unspecified 28
9 Simic – Unspecified 27
10 Petrarch – Canzoniere 24
What do we do now, re-vote the top 5 to pick a final choice?
If we are doing that,here's my choice. If not, I'll re-do whatever method you decide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
The Top 5 in my order:
Lorca
Gautier
Neruda
Leopardi
Browning
As I said, if you want it done a different way, I don't mind.
I could go with any one of these five but as it is here is my five choices in order:
1. Gautier
2. Browning
3. Leopardi
4. Garcia-Lorca
5. Neruda
Neruda
Leopardi
Browning
Lorca
Gautier
1. Gautier
2. Leopardi
3. Browning
4. Garcia-Lorca
5. Neruda
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
Leopardi
Lorca
Browning
Gautier
Neruda
Quite happy to read any of these really, but my order would probably be:
Leopardi
Neruda
Gautier
Browning
Lorca
If I had to choose to discover a French poet, I’d rather read Du Bellay, Ronsard, Hugo, Vigny or Heredia, whose poetry does not seem well known by the Enghish readers. Although Baudelaire considered Gautier as his master, the works of this latter are not as modern and powerful as les Fleurs du Mal. In Émaux et Camées, which is his best collection, at least his most original, he refuses the intrusion of morality and politics in poetry and rejects the sentimental effusions of the Romantics. He tries to attain a purety in his verse, an aesthetic perfection. He often uses the metaphor of the sculptor to show how carefully and meticulously the artist endeavours to elaborate, chisel and polish his material. Some may dislike a kind of impersonality of the result and a lack of emotions.
Baudelaire relates his first meeting with him in these terms :
“ Il me demanda ensuite, avec un œil curieusement méfiant, et comme pour m’éprouver, si j’aimais à lire des dictionnaires. Il me dit cela d’ailleurs comme il dit toute chose, fort tranquillement, et du ton qu’aurait pris un autre pour s’informer si je préférais la lecture des voyages à celle des romans. Par bonheur, j’avais été pris très jeune de lexicomanie, et je vis que ma réponse me gagnait de l’estime. Ce fut justement à propos des dictionnaires qu’il ajouta « que l’écrivain qui ne savait pas tout dire, celui qu’une idée si étrange, si subtile qu’on la supposât, si imprévue, tombant comme une pierre de la lune, prenait au dépourvu et sans matériel pour lui donner corps, n’était pas un écrivain ». ”
I don’t think this interesting essay has ever been translated. I’m going to try to translate this small part despite my approximate English :
“ Then he asked me with curiously suspicious eyes, as if to test me, if I liked to read dictionaries. He said that besides as he says every thing, very quietly, in the tone which another would have taken in order to inquire whether I’d rather read travel narratives or novels. Fortunalety I had been seized by lexicomania when I was very young and I saw that my reply won his esteem. He added about the dictionaries ‘that the writer who could not tell anything, the one that an idea, strange and subtle as it might be, unforeseen and falling like a stone from the moon, caught off his guard without material to give shape to it, was not a writer’. ”
It’s curious to see that Flaubert wrote in a letter (7-27-1852) that he found Émaux et Camées pitiable, recherché and old-fashioned. – By the way his correspondance is a treasure, a must-read for anyone interested in the creation of a novel. I was disappointed the first time I read Madame Bovary, actually I had not even read it till the end, but after having perused these letters and Salammbô I highly revalued this author and understood why he may be considered as one of the most important novelists of the century.
L’ART
Oui, l'oeuvre sort plus belle
D'une forme au travail
Rebelle,
Vers, marbre, onyx, émail.
Point de contraintes fausses !
Mais que pour marcher droit
Tu chausses,
Muse, un cothurne étroit.
Fi du rhythme commode,
Comme un soulier trop grand,
Du mode
Que tout pied quitte et prend !
Statuaire, repousse
L'argile que pétrit
Le pouce
Quand flotte ailleurs l'esprit :
Lutte avec le carrare,
Avec le paros dur
Et rare,
Gardiens du contour pur ;
Emprunte à Syracuse
Son bronze où fermement
S'accuse
Le trait fier et charmant ;
D'une main délicate
Poursuis dans un filon
D'agate
Le profil d'Apollon.
Peintre, fuis l'aquarelle,
Et fixe la couleur
Trop frêle
Au four de l'émailleur.
Fais les sirènes bleues,
Tordant de cent façons
Leurs queues,
Les monstres des blasons ;
Dans son nimbe trilobe
La Vierge et son Jésus,
Le globe
Avec la croix dessus.
Tout passe. - L'art robuste
Seul a l'éternité.
Le buste
Survit à la cité.
Et la médaille austère
Que trouve un laboureur
Sous terre
Révèle un empereur.
Les dieux eux-mêmes meurent,
Mais les vers souverains
Demeurent
Plus forts que les airains.
Sculpte, lime, cisèle ;
Que ton rêve flottant
Se scelle
Dans le bloc résistant !
ART
More fair the work, more strong,
Stamped in resistance long,
Enamel, marble, song.
Poet, no shackles bear,
Yet bid thy Muse to wear
The buskin bound with care.
A fashion loose forsake,
A shoe of sloven make,
That any foot may take.
Sculptor, the clay withstand,
That yieldeth to the hand,
Though listless heart command.
Contend till thou have wrought,
Till the hard stone have caught
The beauty of thy thought.
With Paros match thy might,
And with Carrara bright,
That guard the line of light.
Borrow from Syracuse
The bronze's stubborn use,
Wherein thy form to choose.
And with a delicate grace
In the veined onyx trace
Apollo's perfect face.
Painter, put thou aside
The transient. Be thy pride
The colour furnace-tried.
Limn thou, fantastic, free
Blue sirens of the sea,
And beasts of heraldry.
Before a nimbus gold
Transcendently uphold
The Child, the Cross foretold.
Things perish. Gods have passed.
But song sublimely cast
Shall citadels outlast.
And the forgotten seal
Turned by the plowman's steel
An emperor may reveal.
For Art alone is great:
The bust survives the state,
The crown the potentate.
Carve, burnish, build thy theme,
But fix thy wavering dream
In the stern rock supreme.
I’ve just read again some pieces and I have to admit I agree with Flaubert : none is great even if a few passages are good. Du Bellay and Ronsard, who also aim to an ideal beauty, are far better : because of its contraints, the sonnet is probably a more appropriate mould to express the formal achievement, the mastery in the construction, and to convey more intensely emotions and thoughts. Baudelaire said : ‘Because the form is more constrained, the idea springs up more intensely.’
I found on Amazon books of the poets mentioned above:
- Du Bellay, but it's quite expensive, otherwise there is this version of his main collection, les Regrets
- from Ronsard, it appears you have only these selected poems, but this should be a good introduction
- Vigny does not exist...
- selected poems of Victor Hugo, who was known mostly as a great poet in the 19th century and whose poetic works are immense in the two meanings of the term
- the Trophies of Heredia, but this edition is not bilingual
The best is still to learn French so that you will have access to a larger body of texts and you will more appreciate the qualities of these authors. That's why I'm learning English: to be able to fully understand and really love another culture.
HUGO, CLAIR DE LUNE
La lune était sereine et jouait sur les flots. –
La fenêtre enfin libre est ouverte à la brise,
La sultane regarde, et la mer qui se brise,
Là-bas, d'un flot d'argent brode les noirs îlots.
De ses doigts en vibrant s'échappe la guitare.
Elle écoute... Un bruit sourd frappe les sourds échos.
Est-ce un lourd vaisseau turc qui vient des eaux de Cos,
Battant l'archipel grec de sa rame tartare ?
Sont-ce des cormorans qui plongent tour à tour,
Et coupent l'eau, qui roule en perles sur leur aile ?
Est-ce un djinn qui là-haut siffle d'une voix grêle,
Et jette dans la mer les créneaux de la tour ?
Qui trouble ainsi les flots près du sérail des femmes ?
Ni le noir cormoran, sur la vague bercé,
Ni les pierres du mur, ni le bruit cadencé
Du lourd vaisseau, rampant sur l'onde avec des rames.
Ce sont des sacs pesants, d'où partent des sanglots.
On verrait, en sondant la mer qui les promène,
Se mouvoir dans leurs flancs comme une forme humaine... –
La lune était sereine et jouait sur les flots.
MOONLIGHT
The moon was calm, and flecked the ocean streams.
The casement opens freely to the breeze;
While the sultana watches, breaking seas
Weave the black isles below with silver seams.
The lute slips from her fingers as she plays.
She listens:…echoes, dull, from some dull sound.
Is it a Turkish ship, full, homeward bound,
Whose Tartar oars beat the Greek waterways?
Are cormorants plunging successively,
Cleaving the waves, whose pearls roll from their wings?
Perhaps a djinn, with reedy whispers, flings
The tower's battlements into the sea?
Who is thus troubling the seraglio's shores?—
Neither the cormorant cradled on the flow,
Nor the wall's capstones, nor the to-and-fro
Of heavy vessels with their dipping oars.
Merely full sacks emitting muffled screams;
And as they sink, there might perhaps be spied
Something like human forms moving inside.…
The moon was calm, and flecked the ocean streams.
I make that:
1) Leopardi with -2344455 = 27
2) Gautier with - 4515123 = 21
3) Neruda with - 3151514 = 20
4) Browning with - 1433332 = 19
5) Lorca with - 5222241 = 18
By ranked order so far.
Does anyone else need to vote? Leopardi is a clear winner so far, and can't be overtaken with one more vote.