Is infidelity wrong?

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11-08-2009, 09:04 PM
*Classic*Charm*

Ahh I've been trying SO hard to stay out of this!

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Originally Posted by billl

Should a person be comfortable with the idea that a stalker or a peeping-tom might be watching them, without any fear of capture? What would it be like to meet such a voyeur, and learn of their "hobby?" Is it right to say that the person is behaving morally, as long as they go undiscovered?

Well said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Bean

In general terms I think that women are more likely to feel let down by infidelity on the part of their husband or boyfriend but in their heart of hearts they know that boys will usually be boys.

This is the single biggest piece of crap I've heard in a long time.

I'd love to hear the justification for that one, Brian.
11-08-2009, 09:06 PM
rimbaud

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Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*

This is the single biggest piece of crap I've heard in a long time.

Agreed!
11-08-2009, 09:10 PM
Maryd.

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Originally Posted by rimbaud

Agreed!

So do I...
11-08-2009, 09:22 PM
African_Love

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

It seems to me the very fact that you have to come up with all these exceptions, scenarios, hyptheticals, etc. just to try and prove that infidelity is not morally wrong, should in itself tell you something about your claim.

And how it is exactly, that an act can be considered to be to be perfectly legitimate only under certain sets of circumstances.

That is your claim seems to be well infidelity is not immoral seems to only occur under very realistically unlikely guidelines.

Being that the partner never suspects or finds out about it.
Those having the affair both always remember to use proper protection and get a sexual medical history upon each other in advance (as if)
and by now chance should a child be accidentally be conceived (as the child would surely suffer under such circumstances)

And sets you are sitting up such strait ramifications to justify infidelity, you confess that it is wrong under normal circumstances, that being if the act is indeed discovered or some other consequence result.

But it is a legitimate act as long as it is kept under complete and total secrecy.

That is a rather ludicrous argument to make. If an act would be wrong under discovery than it is just as equally wrong when kept in secrecy, and if it has to be kept a secretly to justify doing it, that in itself proves the wrongness of it.

I never said that cheating was "legitimate", only that it wasn't immoral. Cheating is as "legitimate" as urinating on your mother's grave is (assuming you don't come from a culture where this is an expression of great respect). I think we have different criteria for determining whether or not an act is morally wrong, mine is harm (distress) and benefit (pleasure). I do think that cheating is morally irresponsible on the basis that it would harm your partner if they found out. Although you should respect agreements that you voluntarily enter and hold yourself to the same expectations you hold others, it is your body and you should be allowed to do what you want to do with your body.
11-08-2009, 09:33 PM
Dark Muse

Quote:

Originally Posted by African_Love

I never said that cheating was "legitimate", only that it wasn't immoral. Cheating is as "legitimate" as urinating on your mother's grave is (assuming you don't come from a culture where this is an expression of great respect). I think we have different criteria for determining whether or not an act is morally wrong, mine is harm (distress) and benefit (pleasure). I do think that cheating is morally irresponsible on the basis that it would harm your partner if they found out. Although you should respect agreements that you voluntarily enter and hold yourself to the same expectations you hold others, it is your body and you should be allowed to do what you want to do with your body.

I may respond to some of the other posts when I get around to reading them.

But the very fact that in order to justify it as not being immoral is under the criteria that it remains unknown should itself prove the faulty of that argument.

If an act is not immoral, it should be so under any circumstances, not just as along as it is not found out about.

It seems as if you have two different standards for infidelity.

As obviously if it is discovered than the person will be hurt, so by your own criteria, it would be immoral upon discovery.

But as long as the person gets away with it, than it is not immoral.

For me, an act is either immoral or not immoral.

And I presume than that you must view lying of any kind not to be immoral as long as the person never gets caught in their lie?
11-08-2009, 09:35 PM
DanielBenoit

I haven't read all the posts, so I haven't followed the African Love's line of argument, but all I can say is that love, being such an immensely powerful and yet fragile thing, to have the one you love, who supposedly loves you back, cheat on you, is not only disrespectful, but immoral in the deepest sense of the word.

And yet, there are cultures in which polygamy is widespread, and since the peoples of that particular culture have accepted it as their moral standard, then there is nothing wrong with it, within that context, due to the fact that in that culture, to both men and women, that is 'The way things are'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Bean

In general terms I think that women are more likely to feel let down by infidelity on the part of their husband or boyfriend but in their heart of hearts they know that boys will usually be boys.

My God do I agree with *Classic*Charm* :eek:
11-08-2009, 09:41 PM
African_Love

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But the very fact that in order to justify it as not being immoral is under the criteria that it remains unknown should itself prove the faulty of that argument.

If an act is not immoral, it should be so under any circumstances, not just as along as it is not found out about.

It seems as if you have two different standards for infidelity.

As obviously if it is discovered than the person will be hurt, so by your own criteria, it would be immoral upon discovery.

But as long as the person gets away with it, than it is not immoral.

For me, an act is either immoral or not immoral.

And I presume than that you must view lying of any kind not to be immoral as long as the person never gets caught in their lie?

This is more of a side issue but would you say killing someone is wrong in all possible circumstances? I wouldn't, I think euthanasia is an act of compassion and killing in self-defense is also justified.

In my world view, an act is immoral if it directly causes suffering and morally irresponsible if it may lead to suffering. For example, I'm an anti-natalist, I think that bringing children into this world is morally irresponsible because it will indirectly cause suffering (via the global warming that the unborn child's carbon footprint will contribute to or even the fact that the child him/herself will suffer, ecological reasons aside) but it is not immoral in the way that punching someone or stealing from them are immoral. People should have a right to have 20 children if they want since it's their body, they shouldn't have a right to do what they want to with other people's bodies.

Lying is direspectful (unless doing so would prevent suffering) but only immoral if it deprives someone of future benefit or causes suffering. Even just thinking "so and so is an idiot" is disrespectful but you are allowed to think what you do.
11-08-2009, 09:42 PM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBI

Or perhaps you haven't - the love your neighbor as you would love yourself, in the form in which you state it, comes from the great sage Rabbi Akiva, rather than from scripture, unless you pair it against Leviticus 19:18, but that is a stretch, given the emphasis of the sentence put upon countrymen.

Yes Leviticus 19 but it fits the context:

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11 "You will not steal, nor deal deceitfully or fraudulently with your fellow-citizen.
12 You will not swear by my name with intent to deceive and thus profane the name of your God. I am Yahweh.
13 You will not exploit or rob your fellow. You will not keep back the labourer's wage until next morning.
14 You will not curse the dumb or put an obstacle in the way of the blind, but will fear your God. I am Yahweh.
15 "You will not be unjust in administering justice. You will neither be partial to the poor nor overawed by the great, but will administer justice to your fellow-citizen justly.
16 You will not go about slandering your own family, nor will you put your neighbour's life in jeopardy. I am Yahweh.
17 You will not harbour hatred for your brother. You will reprove your fellow-countryman firmly and thus avoid burdening yourself with a sin.
18 You will not exact vengeance on, or bear any sort of grudge against, the members of your race, but will love your neighbour as yourself. I am Yahweh.

I guess it is limited to one's race.
11-08-2009, 09:49 PM
African_Love

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In general terms I think that women are more likely to feel let down by infidelity on the part of their husband or boyfriend but in their heart of hearts they know that boys will usually be boys

I have to confess, when I was younger, I once thought this. It always seems as though women 'tolerate' cheating so well, like they just go through the motions of pretending to be offended by it. I know this is wrong, it's just what it can seem like from a male p.o.v. I've even been told by a few women that men who did not cheat were boring or predictable. Stereotypically, women gravitate towards the kind of man who is likely to cheat. Society is more tolerant of male cheaters though, men are usually a lot harsher on female cheaters than women are on male cheaters.

I've never understood the poing in agreeing to behave monogamously if you will not behave monogamously and lying about it, it's just not my personality
11-08-2009, 09:51 PM
JBI

Depends, it's a bit of a loose translation, to the say the least - I would interpret it as more of a tribalism than anything else.
11-08-2009, 09:51 PM
Dark Muse

Quote:

Originally Posted by African_Love

This is more of a side issue but would you say killing someone is wrong in all possible circumstances? I wouldn't, I think euthanasia is an act of compassion and killing in self-defense is also justified.

In my world view, an act is immoral if it directly causes suffering and morally irresponsible if it may lead to suffering. For example, I'm an anti-natalist, I think that bringing children into this world is morally irresponsible because it will indirectly cause suffering (via the global warming that the unborn child's carbon footprint will contribute to or even the fact that the child him/herself will suffer, ecological reasons aside) but it is not immoral in the way that punching someone or stealing from them are immoral. People should have a right to have 20 children if they want since it's their body, they shouldn't have a right to do what they want to with other people's bodies.

Lying is direspectful (unless doing so would prevent suffering) but only immoral if it deprives someone of future benefit or causes suffering. Even just thinking "so and so is an idiot" is disrespectful but you are allowed to think what you do.

I do not think that your argument of killing quite compares to your argument here. As you are not trying to make an argument that a person might be justified in having an affair based upon the circumstances of their relationship, but purely based on if they do or do not get caught.

So say a person killed another person, and do so suddenly and instantly, so the person whom was killed did not truly suffer because they never saw it coming and were dead before they could even feel the pain and naturally once they are dead, it is not as if they know the difference. Though their life was taken, they have no awayness of that fact, so ultimately they were not truly harmed. And supposing this person lived completely alone, and had no family, or loved ones, so know one else was harmed by the death either.
11-08-2009, 09:54 PM
*Classic*Charm*

Quote:

Originally Posted by African_Love

Although you should respect agreements that you voluntarily enter and hold yourself to the same expectations you hold others, it is your body and you should be allowed to do what you want to do with your body.

This sounds a little contradictory to me. You should respect your agreements but you should still be allowed to break them if it involves your body?

Sounds pretty straightforward to me, AL. If you aren't going to be monogamous, don't enter into a monogamous relationship. If you truly believe that it's your body and you should be allowed to do with it what you please, then why would you have someone you care about believe otherwise? Why would you tell a partner that you are monogamous if you are not?

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I have to confess, when I was younger, I once thought this. It always seems as though women 'tolerate' cheating so well, like they just go through the motions of pretending to be offended by it. I know this is wrong, it's just what it can seem like from a male p.o.v. I've even been told by a few women that men who did not cheat were boring or predictable. Stereotypically, women gravitate towards the kind of man who is likely to cheat. Society is more tolerant of male cheaters though, men are usually a lot harsher on female cheaters than women are on male cheaters.

This going to sound really harsh and I don't mean to offend anyone (I swear!), but women who tolerate cheating are dumb. As are men who do the same. It's one thing to forgive once (something I couldn't do), but to have it happen multiple times and stick around, NO WAY. I have very serious opinions on women who "like" men who cheat on them, etc.

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I've never understood the poing in agreeing to behave monogamously if you will not behave monogamously and lying about it, it's just not my personality

But thats exactly what you're saying is okay! You're saying that it's okay to allow your partner to believe that you are monogamous when you're not!
11-08-2009, 10:07 PM
African_Love

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I do not think that your argument of killing quite compares to your argument here. As you are not trying to make an argument that a person might be justified in having an affair based upon the circumstances of their relationship, but purely based on if they do or do not get caught.

So say a person killed another person, and do so suddenly and instantly, so the person whom was killed did not truly suffer because they never saw it coming and were dead before they could even feel the pain and naturally once they are dead, it is not as if they know the difference. Though their life was taken, they have no awayness of that fact, so ultimately they were not truly harmed. And supposing this person lived completely alone, and had no family, or loved ones, so know one else was harmed by the death either.

I've addressed this. Killing someone in their sleep or instantaneously in a scenario where they never saw it coming would deprive them of all future pleasure/happiness, since you have to be alive to experience pleasure/happiness. Cheating on someone would not deprive them of pleasure or the monogamous partner that they want, their preference for you to be faithful is being satisfied even if you aren't actually being faithful.

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This sounds a little contradictory to me. You should respect your agreements but you should still be allowed to break them if it involves your body?

If you agree not to do something with your body then you should hold that agreement but it is your body. Cheating is not something bad that's done to your partner, it's something you do with other people. It's not as though you've rented your genitalia to them, your spouse does not own you.

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Sounds pretty straightforward to me, AL. If you aren't going to be monogamous, don't enter into a monogamous relationship. If you truly believe that it's your body and you should be allowed to do with it what you please, then why would you have someone you care about believe otherwise?

I completely agree that it's disrespectful, I don't see how I could have argued otherwise before. Why you might want to have someone you care about believe otherwise is obvious. You want sexual variety but you also want to maintain your relationship with them. Maybe you don't want them to feel jealousy and break up with you, maybe you don't want them to enjoy the same sexual variety (the latter is beyond arrogant).

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Why would you tell a partner that you are monogamous if you are not?

Again, obviously to prevent them from being jealous or angry and breaking up with you. People want to have their cake and eat it too (retarded saying, I know).

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But thats exactly what you're saying is okay! You're saying that it's okay to allow your partner to believe that you are monogamous when you're not!

Did you read the analogy I made about promising your best friend you'll scatter his ashes over your garden when he's dead? I never said that cheating was "okay".

I'm actually surprised that as many people agree with me as they do in regards to my stance that cheating is disrespectful but not immoral. I expected most people to agree that cheating is disrespectful but I'm surprised that so many people think it's immoral. It's strange when you think of how many people actually cheat (a good 30-40 something % of the population, according to some surveys and studies I've read of).
11-08-2009, 10:28 PM
Dark Muse

Quote:

Originally Posted by African_Love

I've addressed this. Killing someone in their sleep or instantaneously in a scenario where they never saw it coming would deprive them of all future pleasure/happiness, since you have to be alive to experience pleasure/happiness. Cheating on someone would not deprive them of pleasure or the monogamous partner that they want, their preference for you to be faithful is being satisfied even if you aren't actually being faithful.

But if a person is killed they will never know that their future pleasure or happiness is being deprived. They do not suffer from this, because they are completely unaware of it.

Now if a person cheats on another person, there is the potential that their pleasure or happiness may be denied or harmed if they ever discover the truth.

Though you argue the scenario that the truth is never found, in the very act there is the possibility of the truth being discovered and thus harm being done.

So, if it is wrong to kill a person because you are robbing them of future happiness, than it should be equally wrong to do something that has the potential to rob them of their future happiness.

Because in both cases of the person being killed, and a person being cheated upon are left completely oblivious to the pleasure and happiness which is or could be denied to them.
11-08-2009, 10:32 PM
*Classic*Charm*

Quote:

Originally Posted by African_Love

If you agree not to do something with your body then you should hold that agreement but it is your body. Cheating is not something bad that's done to your partner, it's something you do with other people. It's not as though you've rented your genitalia to them, your spouse does not own you.

The term is "Cheating on your partner", is it not? The action is relative to your partner, not relative to what you do with someone else. Someone else just happens to be involved. Cheating is to gain advantage at cost to someone else. So yes, it is something you do to your partner.

So you don't have to keep the agreement you made with another person if it's no longer what you want. That is what you're saying here. Fine, break it, but the other person has a right to know that the agreement is over.

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I completely agree that it's disrespectful, I don't see how I could have argued otherwise before. Why you might want to have someone you care about believe otherwise is obvious. You want sexual variety but you also want to maintain your relationship with them. Maybe you don't want them to feel jealousy and break up with you, maybe you don't want them to enjoy the same sexual variety (the latter is beyond arrogant).

ONLY THE LATTER?! Every single one of those reasons is beyond selfish and arrogant. Letting your partner believe that you are being monogamous when you're not, under ANY circumstances, for ANY reason, is selfish and conceited, and pathetic. It is willfully deceiving another for your own personal gain. That is immoral.

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Again, obviously to prevent them from being jealous or angry and breaking up with you. People want to have their cake and eat it too (retarded saying, I know).

Again, WEAK. If you truly care about the person you've "committed" yourself to, then you would give her the option of choosing. Maybe if that's what would make you really happy, she'd be willing to let you do that. Don't let her think you're monogamous when you're not.

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Did you read the analogy I made about promising your best friend you'll scatter his ashes over your garden when he's dead? I never said that cheating was "okay".

I'm actually surprised that as many people agree with me as they do in regards to my stance that cheating is disrespectful but not immoral. I expected most people to agree that cheating is disrespectful but I'm surprised that so many people think it's immoral. It's strange when you think of how many people actually cheat (a good 30-40 something % of the population, according to some surveys and studies I've read of).

But you have essentially said that although it is disrespectful, it is not immoral. If it's not immoral, then how can it not be okay? Being disrespectful is either amoral or immoral. Unless you've been raised in a bubble, I think the first case unlikely. If, however, your disrespect is not innocent and accidental, it has been done in full knowledge of the fact that it is meant to offend and insult. If you have deliberately offended and insulted someone, you have acted immorally. Therefore, is cheating is disrespectful, it is also immoral.
11-08-2009, 11:18 PM
African_Love

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But if a person is killed they will never know that their future pleasure or happiness is being deprived. They do not suffer from this, because they are completely unaware of it.

They don't have to be aware that they are being deprived of benefit to be deprived of benefit.

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Now if a person cheats on another person, there is the potential that their pleasure or happiness may be denied or harmed if they ever discover the truth.

There is the potential which is why I consider it to be morally irresponsible rather than flat out immoral

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Though you argue the scenario that the truth is never found, in the very act there is the possibility of the truth being discovered and thus harm being done.

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here. In my hypothetical scenario, the truth will never be discovered by their partner. In real life, this can never be guaranteed which is why I think it is morally irresponsible.

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So, if it is wrong to kill a person because you are robbing them of future happiness, than it should be equally wrong to do something that has the potential to rob them of their future happiness.

No, killing definitely robs someone of all opportunity for future pleasure/happiness, cheating only has the potential to cause suffering. Furthermore, killing someone is doing something to their body, cheating is doing something with your body- your 'property'- that you said you wouldn't do.

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The term is "Cheating on your partner", is it not? The action is relative to your partner, not relative to what you do with someone else.

The term (which obviously wasn't coined by people who share my harm/benefit based moral world view) involves your partner but the actual action simply does not.

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Someone else just happens to be involved.

Sex between Bob and Betty 'just happens' to involve Betty?

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Cheating is to gain advantage at cost to someone else. So yes, it is something you do to your partner.

In my hypothetical circumstance, cheating does not cause suffering and it does not deprive someone of benefit. Our lives, as sentient beings, come down to two things : seeking pleasure and avoiding stress. People agree to behave monogamously (correct me if I'm wrong and you have a different reason) because the thought of 'sharing' their partner makes them jealous. If you do not know what your partner is doing with other people, you cannot experience jealousy as a result. No jealousy, no problem. I admit, this and my autonomy argument is kind of a sidetrack from my basic harm/benefit argument but as cliche as the 'what you don't know won't hurt you' saying is, it's true and being cheated on doesn't deprive you of happiness either. You might say "but I would want to know" but like I pointed out earlier, you would have to know x= y to want to know that x=y or care about it one way or the other so there's no use adopting such existentially impossible, metaphysical points of view.

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So you don't have to keep the agreement you made with another person if it's no longer what you want. That is what you're saying here. Fine, break it, but the other person has a right to know that the agreement is over.

'Rights' are a social construct. Personally, I'm more concerned with the right to be happy. I think that you should be honest with your partner but I also think that you should scatter your friends ashes over your garden if you promised him you would.

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ONLY THE LATTER?! Every single one of those reasons is beyond selfish and arrogant.

Relationships themselves are, to a great extent, attachment (selfish) based rather than empathy (other) based.

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Letting your partner believe that you are being monogamous when you're not, under ANY circumstances, for ANY reason, is selfish and conceited, and pathetic. It is willfully deceiving another for your own personal gain. That is immoral.

This is a stretch but would it be immoral to neglect telling your fiancee that you snore or look like Freddy Krueger in the morning knowing that this info. might change his opinion about you? Romantic relationships are more attachment based than empathy based as it is, which is why we even require that our partners remain exclusive with us when we would never ask our platonic friends to do the same. This isn't the best reasoning for my position, I just believe that ethics is only a matter of pleasure and pain.

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Again, WEAK. If you truly care about the person you've "committed" yourself to, then you would give her the option of choosing. Maybe if that's what would make you really happy, she'd be willing to let you do that. Don't let her think you're monogamous when you're not.

I completely agree that cheaters should propose an open relationship rather than being deceptive if they cannot behave monogamously. I'm not gung-ho about cheating, I just can't put it in the same category as theft, murder, rape etc.

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But you have essentially said that although it is disrespectful, it is not immoral. If it's not immoral, then how can it not be okay?

Why is it so hard to understand that something can be disrespectful without being immoral? A bunch of high school kids gossiping about their classmate when she isn't there is disrespectful, it isn't unethical if they don't cause her harm (or deprive her of benefit).

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Being disrespectful is either amoral or immoral. Unless you've been raised in a bubble, I think the first case unlikely.

Why?

Let's say you have two options : 1) the option of cheating on your spouse, (s)he believes you are faithful and this belief makes them happy, they will never find out or 2) not cheating on your spouse, (s)he believes you are faithful and this belief makes them happy. The decision you make is completely irrelevant to their state of mind, completely. You won't harm them if you do cheat and you won't benefit them if you don't. What will harm or benefit them is their belief that you are or are not cheating. We have no direct, reliable access to the external world, what exists to us is what we consciously experience.

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If, however, your disrespect is not innocent and accidental, it has been done in full knowledge of the fact that it is meant to offend and insult. If you have deliberately offended and insulted someone, you have acted immorally. Therefore, is cheating is disrespectful, it is also immoral.

Bob does not sleep with Betty because he deliberatly and intentionally wants to insult or offend his wife Jasmine. If this were the case, he wouldn't hide it from her. Bob sleeps with Betty because he is attracted to her and he will be regardless of his relationship with his wife. You cannot choose who you are attracted to, monogomy would be easier if you could.
11-08-2009, 11:32 PM
Dark Muse

Quote:

Originally Posted by African_Love

They don't have to be aware that they are being deprived of benefit to be deprived of benefit.

I do not see how that is any different than cheating upon a person, the partner is not aware that they are being betrayed, but that does not change the fact that they are being betrayed.

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Originally Posted by African_Love

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here. In my hypothetical scenario, the truth will never be discovered by their partner. In real life, this can never be guaranteed which is why I think it is morally irresponsible.

That is just it, the idea of the partner never finding out the truth can really only exist hypothetically, so the argument cannot be applied to real life. Hypothetically cheating may not be immoral, but in the real world is not valid as there is no way to guarantee that no harm will be done to the person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by African_Love

Furthermore, killing someone is doing something to their body, cheating is doing something with your body- your 'property'- that you said you wouldn't do.

But it is not strictly doing something to only your body. It is doing something to another's body as well, as to have an affair there must be another person involved. So here is an issue that has not yet been addressed. The harm that is being done to the 2nd party within the affair. Rarely are those truly happy just being nothing more than objects of sex, most have some expectation that someday said person will leave the one they are with for them. So if a person is having an affair, what of the harm to the one they are having the affair with, they are directly having their own future happiness and pleasure denied for they can never have a meaningful relationship with the person whom they are having the affair with, and however wrong they might be in their part within it, they still are emotionally suffering from the affair because of the position they are in.
11-09-2009, 01:18 AM
Mathor

Okay, so you say something is not immoral if the person never finds out. But isn't it immoral not to tell your spouse and keep something like that from them? You can't justify betrayal and lying. Lying to your spouse hurts your spouse.
11-09-2009, 01:22 AM
Maryd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathor

Okay, so you say something is not immoral if the person never finds out. But isn't it immoral not to tell your spouse and keep something like that from them? You can't justify betrayal and lying. Lying to your spouse hurts your spouse.

Go Mathor... Yahoooo! ;)
11-09-2009, 03:07 AM
Jozanny

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

But it is not strictly doing something to only your body. It is doing something to another's body as well, as to have an affair there must be another person involved. So here is an issue that has not yet been addressed. The harm that is being done to the 2nd party within the affair. Rarely are those truly happy just being nothing more than objects of sex, most have some expectation that someday said person will leave the one they are with for them. So if a person is having an affair, what of the harm to the one they are having the affair with, they are directly having their own future happiness and pleasure denied for they can never have a meaningful relationship with the person whom they are having the affair with, and however wrong they might be in their part within it, they still are emotionally suffering from the affair because of the position they are in.

As someone who has had a number of married men, this was both true and not true in my case. On a graded scale, a fling is slightly different than something where a woman becomes a mistress for any length of time; the latter hurts more if either party has feelings--but sometimes the thrill of physical contact is just that, and the sinning spouse may actually not love the betrayed spouse any less. Life is complicated, and I was as often the sympathy ear for men obsessed with perceived emotional slights from their wives. I might have been a talking pc for all they cared.

When you get caught, life becomes more complicated still, so I am not here to give advice. I enjoyed what I had, got hurt on more than one occasion, and at one point burned my correspondence like something out of a Gothic suspense novel and was fearful of divorce attorneys.

I guess I did have a life once upon a time:p (not to worry ladies, I'm out of commission)...
11-09-2009, 04:53 AM
blazeofglory

Infidelity is so common today; People in some cultures want their would-be spouse virgin, unsexed and if she or he was already exploited he or she would be deemed adulterated or grimy in point of fact. We want chastity in others whereas we always infringe on the domain. In fact what we call chastity, fidelity are the sets of principles men have framed in the course of civilization through evolutionary phases for there is no such thing as fidelity and infidelity in nature. You may argue that this is obviously manifest among birds, and yet the extremity with which man deals with this not found in bestial communities in point of fact. For, sex is not a subject of debate there, nor any being is charged for violating it. Man however is a funny species and sex or the question of infidelity is so much accentuated in man’s society.
I wonder when man will look at it from a different perspective. I envision when this civilization will be over and a new will pop up with all our codes of conducts redrafted we will take this issue of fidelity and infidelity totally differently in point of fact. This is the other view on it, not in fact an opposite view.
11-09-2009, 07:03 AM
Michael T

First of all African Love, I think you need to understand that immorality and disrespect don’t depend on someone other than yourself being aware of your actions. Your whole argument seems to rest on whether or not the person being betrayed is aware of the betrayal that is taking place.

If you accept the meanings of the terms ‘Infidelity’, ‘Morality’ and ‘Respect’ then your argument falls apart. The meaning of these terms do not depend on the person you are betraying/disrespecting being aware of your actions.

Respect denotes both a positive feeling of esteem for a person or other entity (such as a nation or a religion), and also specific actions and conduct representative of that esteem.

Morality can be used either
1. Descriptively to refer to a code of conduct put forward by a society or,
a. some other group, such as a religion, or
b. accepted by an individual for his/her own behaviour or
2. Normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

Infidelity is a violation of the mutually agreed-upon rules or boundaries of an intimate relationship, which constitutes a significant breach of faith or a betrayal of core shared values with which the integrity of the relationship is defined. In common use, it describes an act of unfaithfulness to one’s husband, wife, or lover, whether sexual or non-sexual in nature.
There are two areas in a close relationship where infidelity mostly occurs: physical intimacy and emotional intimacy. Infidelity is not just about sex outside the relationship, but about trust, betrayal, lying and disloyalty. What makes infidelity so painful is the fact that it involves someone deliberately using deception to violate established expectations within a relationship.

African Love, I end by leaving you the definition of the word you yourself have used often in this thread to describe the actions you wish to condone:

Cheating is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others, Cheating implies the breaking of rules. The term "cheating" is less applicable to the breaking of laws, as illegal activities are referred to by specific legal terminology such as fraud or corruption. Cheating is a primordial economic act: getting more for less, often used when referring to marital infidelity. A person who is guilty of cheating is generally referred to as a cheat
11-09-2009, 07:56 AM
Virgil

I'm really encouraged by the outcome of the vote. With all the moral relativism that goes on in today's world, and especially on lit net, I would have thought the outcome would be different. :)
11-09-2009, 08:30 AM
TheFifthElement

I think Qimi made a good point:

Quote:

Originally Posted by qimissung

It is wrong. It is disrespectful. I think some people use ist as a "raft" to help them move out of an unhappy relationship.

but I'd add to that not just a raft to get out of an unhappy relationship but also a raft to cope with an unhappy relationship. At its core it is disrespectful, if you've reached the point where you can betray a person's trust then you no longer love and respect that person. Is it immoral? Hmm, I find that more hard to judge. I guess it depends on the circumstances. The 'right' thing to do, it would seem to me anyway, would be to end one relationship before you start another, but I know of people who have had affairs because they fell in love with someone else and no longer loved/respected their husband/wife, but did not want to end the marriage because of their children. I don't think that's necessarily right, but I can understand why people would do it. I think it's not so easy doing the right thing when you're torn between being in love with someone and your love for your children. It's a quandary I've been lucky not to face.

That being said I can't imagine myself ever having an affair, but then I love and respect my husband a great deal :D and if I was unhappy in one relationship I can't imagine that starting another relationship would make things any better though perhaps that is a lack of imagination on my part. I'm also in the position that I can only be married to my husband because his first marriage broke down (and there was an affair, on both sides - not with me I'd like to point out!) so perhaps that gives me a slightly different perspective on things.
11-09-2009, 06:06 PM
Jozanny

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

I'm really encouraged by the outcome of the vote. With all the moral relativism that goes on in today's world, and especially on lit net, I would have thought the outcome would be different. :)

I cannot vote, because my answer would be to brake on not being too quick to judge. I did not wake up one day and declare I wanted to be "the other woman."

Life happens to people, and everyone has needs.
11-09-2009, 06:28 PM
Michael T

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozanny

I did not wake up one day and declare I wanted to be "the other woman."

Life happens to people, and everyone has needs.

You did wake up one day with the ability to choose though.
11-09-2009, 06:36 PM
Dark Muse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael T

You did wake up one day with the ability to choose though.

Yes!

That is ezactly what I was going to say.

You do not just "happen" to be a mistress, it is a concious choice you made.

One of my favorite quotes

You can't help what you feel, but you can help how you behave
11-09-2009, 06:39 PM
Maryd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

You can't help what you feel, but you can help how you behave

Great quote. Especially for this topic...
11-09-2009, 06:40 PM
Jozanny

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael T

You did wake up one day with the ability to choose though.

And that seems easy to you Michael? Try telling a single woman who can walk that you are confined to a wheelchair for life, and see what happens after a while.

Married men were not afraid of me, and I am a human being. Did I mean to hurt their wives? Of course not, and most of the time I stepped out of the picture without ever having been the cause of the problem.

I do not recommend it as a way of life, but I'd take kindness over the routine pain of daily loneliness if the former is the best I could do.
11-09-2009, 06:50 PM
Michael T

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozanny

And that seems easy to you Michael? Try telling a single woman who can walk that you are confined to a wheelchair for life, and see what happens after a while.

Are you suggesting that people confined to wheelchairs require different moral values? Should ugly people have special concessions too?
11-09-2009, 07:17 PM
soundofmusic

"Morals" are often set in place to protect the fragile balance of certain societal structures:
Marital relationships often begin to wear when there are financial difficulties, a pregnancy or new child, something temporary; sometimes these partnerships can mend if there isn't an outside force pushing them in the other direction.
There are some people who are not exactly happy in the marital state; but need the security of it, or the status; they often take many lovers, over time, make empty promises and keep the person in limbo.
Ones mate or children may not know that the other mate is having a relationship; but they sense the "drift"...we don't live in a vacuum, everything we do affects the people we are close to.
We are emotional beings, we often fall in love with the wrong people. In order to give a relationship the best chance of survival, keep it as simple as possible. Don't go in while your "friend" is in the midst of a bitter break up, divorce or custody battle. If possible, give them a year after the end of a relationship to "pick up the pieces". Yes, they may find someone else in the interim; they will probably be back!
11-09-2009, 07:17 PM
Dark Muse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozanny

And that seems easy to you Michael? Try telling a single woman who can walk that you are confined to a wheelchair for life, and see what happens after a while.

Married men were not afraid of me, and I am a human being. Did I mean to hurt their wives? Of course not, and most of the time I stepped out of the picture without ever having been the cause of the problem.

I do not recommend it as a way of life, but I'd take kindness over the routine pain of daily loneliness if the former is the best I could do.

I cannot even bring myself to come up with anything close to a civil response to that.
11-09-2009, 08:15 PM
Jozanny

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I cannot even bring myself to come up with anything close to a civil response to that.

I don't care Dark, nothing personal.

Marriage, as a state of being, is not always what it is cracked up to be, and happy ones are far and few between, not that they don't exist, but they are rarer than young people would like to believe.

Young people also like to see things in black and white, and life really isn't like that.

There is a tendency on boards like these to bat reactionary labels around like Halloween candy, and I am contrary enough to push back. Even able-bodied women find themselves in situations where virtue is not the better part of valor, and adultery also mixes up the paternity issue. It is good for the species.

That last is cheeky, but I am always willing to consider all parties. No one, Dark Muse, is as culpable as the straight and narrow advocates would like to believe.
11-09-2009, 08:19 PM
Maryd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundofmusic

"Morals" are often set in place to protect the fragile balance of certain societal structures:
Marital relationships often begin to wear when there are financial difficulties, a pregnancy or new child, something temporary; sometimes these partnerships can mend if there isn't an outside force pushing them in the other direction.
There are some people who are not exactly happy in the marital state; but need the security of it, or the status; they often take many lovers, over time, make empty promises and keep the person in limbo.
Ones mate or children may not know that the other mate is having a relationship; but they sense the "drift"...we don't live in a vacuum, everything we do affects the people we are close to.
We are emotional beings, we often fall in love with the wrong people. In order to give a relationship the best chance of survival, keep it as simple as possible. Don't go in while your "friend" is in the midst of a bitter break up, divorce or custody battle. If possible, give them a year after the end of a relationship to "pick up the pieces". Yes, they may find someone else in the interim; they will probably be back!

I couldn't have put it better myself Soundofmusic. You are very wise.:angel:
11-09-2009, 08:23 PM
Dark Muse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozanny

I don't care Dark, nothing personal.

Marriage, as a state of being, is not always what it is cracked up to be, and happy ones are far and few between, not that they don't exist, but they are rarer than young people would like to believe.

Young people also like to see things in black and white, and life really isn't like that.

There is a tendency on boards like these to bat reactionary labels around like Halloween candy, and I am contrary enough to push back. Even able-bodied women find themselves in situations where virtue is not the better part of valor, and adultery also mixes up the paternity issue. It is good for the species.

That last is cheeky, but I am always willing to consider all parties. No one, Dark Muse, is as culpable as the straight and narrow advocates would like to believe.

And I personally have no sympathy for people who make the conscious choice to cheat and betray. There is no excuse for it that I will accept.

If you are in a bad relationship you, you handle it like an adult and you get out of it. No one is saying that is easy, but life is not just about making easy decisions that meet with your instant gratification.

Being that having an affair is something that is completely and totally within my control, I can say with complete confidence that I will never do it, no matter what the circumstances.

It is not something that is just going to "happen" to me, it is something of which I would make the choice to decide to do, and it is a choice I will never make for myself, period!
11-09-2009, 09:31 PM
soundofmusic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maryd.

I couldn't have put it better myself Soundofmusic. You are very wise.:angel:

Thank you, Maryd; that means alot coming from such a wise and good person:nod:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozanny

And that seems easy to you Michael? Try telling a single woman who can walk that you are confined to a wheelchair for life, and see what happens after a while.

I do not recommend it as a way of life, but I'd take kindness over the routine pain of daily loneliness if the former is the best I could do.

:( I can see Jozannys point here; it is a terrible thing to live with someone you love and cannot express it through physical intimacy. Sometimes the loneliness is almost unbearable. People are vulnerable, they sometimes make selfish choices that are not the best thing for everyone involved.
I don't think Jozanny is saying that this is the first choice one makes; but that sometimes life is very cruel and a person will choose love over sadness.
11-09-2009, 09:49 PM
African_Love

Quote:

I do not see how that is any different than cheating upon a person, the partner is not aware that they are being betrayed, but that does not change the fact that they are being betrayed.

It's different because one deprives someone of future pleasure (if I remember what you're replying to) and the other does not. One is immoral and the other is disrespectful. Betraying someone by breaking an agreement you've voluntariliy and without coercion entered into with them is disrespectful, I just don't think it's immoral, not in this case.

Quote:

That is just it, the idea of the partner never finding out the truth can really only exist hypothetically, so the argument cannot be applied to real life. Hypothetically cheating may not be immoral, but in the real world is not valid as there is no way to guarantee that no harm will be done to the person.

If it's hypothetical then it's hypothetical. I would still argue that it's morally irresponsible rather than directly immoral.

Quote:

But it is not strictly doing something to only your body. It is doing something to another's body as well, as to have an affair there must be another person involved. So here is an issue that has not yet been addressed. The harm that is being done to the 2nd party within the affair. Rarely are those truly happy just being nothing more than objects of sex, most have some expectation that someday said person will leave the one they are with for them. So if a person is having an affair, what of the harm to the one they are having the affair with, they are directly having their own future happiness and pleasure denied for they can never have a meaningful relationship with the person whom they are having the affair with, and however wrong they might be in their part within it, they still are emotionally suffering from the affair because of the position they are in.

Circumstances vary, I'm sure. Some 'other men/women' don't want anything more, some do, either way they chose to get into what they did.

Quote:

adultery also mixes up the paternity issue. It is good for the species.

This was something else, lol. I can't relate to Jozanny's position, believe it or not. I've never accepted the 'life is complicated', 'it just happens' argument because (for all intents and purposes I'll pretend I'm not a determinist), we do choose to behave how we behave despite circumstances. I don't have to do anything I consider to be inappropriate, whether it's kill someone in anger, cheat on my wife or whatever. This argument could be a cop-out for anything.

Quote:

But isn't it immoral not to tell your spouse and keep something like that from them?

Not if it either a) does not cause them distress or b) deprive them of pleasure/happiness, imo.

Quote:

You can't justify betrayal and lying.

As far as character is concerned, I agree with you. I don't know why no one seems satisfied with acknowledging that it is disrespectful and 'bad' in that sense. After all, nobody who loves their partner would want to disrespect them, even if it could be morally justified.

Quote:

Lying to your spouse hurts your spouse.

That just isn't true.
11-09-2009, 09:52 PM
wessexgirl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

And I personally have no sympathy for people who make the conscious choice to cheat and betray. There is no excuse for it that I will accept.

If you are in a bad relationship you, you handle it like an adult and you get out of it. No one is saying that is easy, but life is not just about making easy decisions that meet with your instant gratification.

Being that having an affair is something that is completely and totally within my control, I can say with complete confidence that I will never do it, no matter what the circumstances.

It is not something that is just going to "happen" to me, it is something of which I would make the choice to decide to do, and it is a choice I will never make for myself, period!

Well said! Of course infidelity is wrong, it wrecks lives, and anyone who thinks differently, and that they can justify their selfish behaviour is kidding themselves. I know from bitter experience; my kids no longer have a dad. I will never be convinced that cheating and lying is okay. It's a betrayal of the highest order, the most hurtful thing one person can do to another. I'm tired of seeing people trying to salve their consciences, if they have them, by using the old chestnut, "that's life". It may be some people's lives, but it will never be part of mine, I have too much respect for myself and my family to go along with that bull. I could never behave so despicably as to knowingly inflict hurt on other people for my own gratification. I have my own moral compass, and knew that if such a thing ever happened to me, that would be the end, no questions about it, finito, and it was. His sorry *** was kicked out so fast with all his belongings, that his feet didn't touch the ground. After many years of marriage, I find myself alone, and considerably worse off. Infidelity breaks up families. I have seen many people go through it. It's not just the couple who suffer, the knock-on effects are massive. My life, and that of my kids has changed forever, through no fault of our own, but because there are people out there who see nothing wrong in doing what they do. My daughter is getting married next year, and she has only my side of the family to be there. Her father's side is as good as dead to her. There is no contact with any of his side of the family, so because a couple of selfish people decided they wanted their cake and eat it, many innocent people are affected. We are just one of the many millions of families the world over who have been affected by such selfish, immoral and disrespectful people, but just because the numbers are great, it will never be acceptable behaviour.
11-09-2009, 10:02 PM
Dark Muse

Quote:

Originally Posted by wessexgirl

Well said! Of course infidelity is wrong, it wrecks lives, and anyone who thinks differently, and that they can justify their selfish behaviour is kidding themselves. I know from bitter experience; my kids no longer have a dad. I will never be convinced that cheating and lying is okay. It's a betrayal of the highest order, the most hurtful thing one person can do to another. I'm tired of seeing people trying to salve their consciences, if they have them, by using the old chestnut, "that's life". It may be some people's lives, but it will never be part of mine, I have too much respect for myself and my family to go along with that bull. I could never behave so despicably as to knowingly inflict hurt on other people for my own gratification. I have my own moral compass, and knew that if such a thing ever happened to me, that would be the end, no questions about it, finito, and it was. His sorry *** was kicked out so fast with all his belongings, that his feet didn't touch the ground. After many years of marriage, I find myself alone, and considerably worse off. Infidelity breaks up families. I have seen many people go through it. It's not just the couple who suffer, the knock-on effects are massive. My life, and that of my kids has changed forever, through no fault of our own, but because there are people out there who see nothing wrong in doing what they do. My daughter is getting married next year, and she has only my side of the family to be there. Her father's side is as good as dead to her. There is no contact with any of his side of the family, so because a couple of selfish people decided they wanted their cake and eat it, many innocent people are affected. We are just one of the many millions of families the world over who have been affected by such selfish, immoral and disrespectful people, but just because the numbers are great, it will never be acceptable behaviour.

Here! Here!

Good for you for being strong enough not to put up with that nonsense. I completely agree, I think it is ridiculous the excuses people try to come up with to justify to themselves their choice to have an affair with another person. And the fact that so many of them seem to try to make it sound as if they are in fact not responsible for the choice they made.

Life is hard sometimes, but that is never a justification for having an affair.
11-09-2009, 10:02 PM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozanny

Young people also like to see things in black and white, and life really isn't like that.

Thanks for considering me young. :) Perhaps I never grew up. :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by wessexgirl

Well said! Of course infidelity is wrong, it wrecks lives, and anyone who thinks differently, and that they can justify their selfish behaviour is kidding themselves. I know from bitter experience; my kids no longer have a dad. I will never be convinced that cheating and lying is okay. It's a betrayal of the highest order, the most hurtful thing one person can do to another. I'm tired of seeing people trying to salve their consciences, if they have them, by using the old chestnut, "that's life". It may be some people's lives, but it will never be part of mine, I have too much respect for myself and my family to go along with that bull. I could never behave so despicably as to knowingly inflict hurt on other people for my own gratification. I have my own moral compass, and knew that if such a thing ever happened to me, that would be the end, no questions about it, finito, and it was. His sorry *** was kicked out so fast with all his belongings, that his feet didn't touch the ground. After many years of marriage, I find myself alone, and considerably worse off. Infidelity breaks up families. I have seen many people go through it. It's not just the couple who suffer, the knock-on effects are massive. My life, and that of my kids has changed forever, through no fault of our own, but because there are people out there who see nothing wrong in doing what they do. My daughter is getting married next year, and she has only my side of the family to be there. Her father's side is as good as dead to her. There is no contact with any of his side of the family, so because a couple of selfish people decided they wanted their cake and eat it, many innocent people are affected. We are just one of the many millions of families the world over who have been affected by such selfish, immoral and disrespectful people, but just because the numbers are great, it will never be acceptable behaviour.

I agree with Dark Muse. Hear, hear!!

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