Yeah kinda I think. When I read more I'll repost.
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Yeah kinda I think. When I read more I'll repost.
Wow, I'm so far into the book now that I have only three chapters left, and I cannot believe this awesome conclusion. Marianne got an illness, nearly died, Willoughby visited and told Elinor his story, then left, Elinor told Marianne and family his story of why he did everything, and Marianne is on the recovery. Colonel Brandon is growing closer to Marianne too. I can't wait to find out more about what happens to Elinor as she has been the rock in all hardships, and I just found out that Edward and Lucy are now married. So how will Elinor end up with him? Wow. Great book.
Yes, that last stretch does kind of surprise, doesn't it?
What did you think of Willoughby?
I found it amazing that in the beginning, you think: 'Well, what's he got to say for hmself? He made Marrianne sick and now he's coming to beg for forgiveness. He's not going to get it from me, he isn't!'
And then, at the end, you think: 'oh, poor Willoughby. Nasty aunt. Ok, he did muck up with the other girl, but really, bless him, he wanted to be genuine with Marianne and everything went wrong. Poor guy, forever saddled with his Miss Grey.'
I found it quite amazing how Austen redeemed him just that little bit in only one chapter. The (how many pages is it?) before, you don't want to hear from him, and at the end of the chapter there is just that little bit of sadness...
And what did you think about Mr Palmer? I found him quite resposible and caring. Surprisng, actually, because you have never liked him much because he is always so sulky... But he must still love his wife, joining her when she is fleeing for Marianne's sickness with the baby.
And CB... He's just... ah! Really. He is the man for her. You remember what criticism he had to suffer from Marianne in the beginning? haha. It's in the Austen her-vote if you want to have a look. 'But he talked of flanel waistcoats'... At the point were he is coming back to Barton Cottage, Austen also writes something very funny!
You think Edward and Lucy are married, do you? Read on. All will be explained.
And then when you are done, you can watch your earlier comments. It's quite funny what one thinks before the conclusion... ;)
I finished the book early yesterday night. That was a brilliant read. The thing I was amazed about most from the whole book was when I found out it was Robert married to Lucy instead. Wow. The ending was nice, too. Very warm. In terms of Willoughby, my sentiments towards him were just shut up and go away, but even before he began to speak I was excited because some part of me wanted to hear what he had to say. After he had finished, I do not think him vain or arrogant anymore - just unfortunate. I feel really happy for Brandon but in a way I felt true love was loopholed at the end. All in all, a great book. And I will keep commenting here if you want to carry on discussing. Also, I will read my earlier comments!
It depends how one sees love... If love is a feeling that is created at first sight (as Marianne thought in the beginning) then certainly Willoughby was it and she was it for Willoughby. But if love is more than that, if it is a feeling of trust, friendship, stability, security etc. the rock so to say that keeps a relationship together then it is Colonel Brandon. If Willoughby was too much striken by his angry aunt to rebell or tell her that there was a girl he wanted to marry, and he married another one with a lot of money afterwards (result: unhappiness) then surely he did not want to fight for it and the 'love' wasn't that strong.
It is also interesting to note that Edward Ferrars has actually found himself in kind of the same position as Willoughby at some point: he meets Lucy Steele, falls in love and proposes. Years after, he cannot care less, but still keeps the engagement up out of propriety. This is not really Willoughby, but it is him all over on the infatuation-front (oh, ye yes, I'm in love, she is perfect). In the meantime though, Ferrars meets Elenor and there he finds a rock as Marianne finds finally in Brandon. The two do not show it and are not head-over-heels in love, but there is that deeper feeling. Brandon has neer ceased to love Marianne, not when Willoughby was his rival, not when Willoughby was the jerk, not when she was briefly gone out of sight, not when she was going to die. Elenor never ceased to love Edward although he lost his money (though that becomes alright after some time), although he turns out to be engaged, although she knew he was married...
By all means keep commenting. It's good to get stuff off your chest ;).
Wow. Deep analysis. Yeah, but in terms of love from physical attraction and personality, I think it was Willoughby. With CB, I don't think Marianne found love, but more like they found solace in each other. I think Edward and Willoughby are completely different, that's just my opinion.
Of course the men Ferrars and Willoughby are diffrent, but not their initial situations. That was what I was getting at. Oh, my God, if Elenor had wanted Willoughby or a man like hm, then she would have been seriously strange!
But deep analysis... You should see some of the debates on this forum...
Forums are to discuss. Plus, the deeper the analysis, the more intellectual and broader-minded it makes you, in my opinion. Yeah, I get what you're saying now, and I agree. I also enjoyed how each of the characters take a journey through the book, where they develop their personality and desires. That intrigues me.
That is beautyful about Austen, and some other writers: you feel like the novel was worth it because characters are better off afterards (what you can't say about lots of others)...
You said you only started a short while ago with reading... Why and what did you read before (or was that totally zero?)?
And what will you be reading next? :)
I sort of agree with Aamir more than with Kiki. I feel that by marrying Colonel Branden, Marianne does a very sensible thing, and I do not doubt that she'll be happy. But she has to sacrifice all her romantic ideals, and at such a young age. It was a pity.
I guess I just don't feel anything much for Colonel Brandon, while I really liked Marrianne!
Willoughby seemed nice on the surface to me, but after his escapades with that daughter of CB's first love became known it kind of repelled me.
If a man can lie to a girl and take her to bed, ruin the life of that girl out of selfishness and if he can do something so despicable as what Willoughby did with Marianne (imagine the shock to the poor girl!) without even taking the trouble for explaining, then is he worth the trust? To me, he could well have put discretion away and explained his problem. What could Marianne hae done apart from take leave of him? He does not want to marry without money, then ok, fine, he doesn't, but still she would have known why he left her and wouldn't have suffered that much and foremost would not have felt used. Now, he just ignores her, sends the letters back without seeming explanation and is rude to her, and then she pines away almost. After whih he feels guilty. I think Mariiane's trust in romance had to be tempered a little.
Imagine the aunt would have let Willoughby marry Marianne, had he thrown himself upon her kindness (as another character does in another Asten-nvel. I won't say which not to spoil it for Aamir :D), what would she have suffered if she had found out about his pre-marital escapades with that girl and his illegitimate child? And furthermore, would he never have betrayed her trust? he can say he is in love now, but still, he told Miss Grey the same I would think when proposing to her (which woman would marry a man for anything but love anyway if she had a fortune of 30,000?).
Call me old-fashioned but I find a partner should be trustworthy and that is not Willoughby.
I don't know if Marianne loved Brandon. Maybe she went the same way as Lizzie... Firstly, uh, no, and then, well maybe...
No, no, I didn't mean that. I don't like Wiloughby either, and I think Marianne was lucky she didn't end up with him. It's just that there's such a complete rout of 'sensibility' and such an overwhelming triumph for 'sense' when Marianne marries Colonel Brandon. Why should 'sensibility' be such a bad thing just because one man that she falls in love with turns out to be an unprincipled libertine.
I felt Marianne was a lovely character. She is warm, generous, affectionate and bubbling with enthusiasm for the beautiful things in life. The affair with Wiloughby and her subsequent illness seem to break something in her, and her marriage to Colonel Brandon seems to be a result of a loss of confidence in herself and everything she believed in.
She might have really liked CB after a while, and that's why she married him; but that is something we have to imagine for ourselves. The text does not make us feel it, IMO.
Maybe the reversal was the funny thing: Elenor goes more for sensibility and Marianne for sense. Although, I do believe that when Austen writes that Brandon was restored to cheerfullness by Marianne, that she 'could never love by halves' and that 'her heart became, in time, as much devoted to her husband as it once had been to Willoughby', it does imply something.
Whether that something is not rather the opposite is question. However, her sufering sheds a light on her deep affection for Willoughby.
When Austen also writes that Marianne was born to 'an extraordinary fate', 'to discover the falsehood of her own opinions' maybe it could be read as a sneer towards her brother, who continues on his (erroneous) way and only comes to visit them when Colonel Brandon is becoming part of his family.
Firstly, thanks to Kiki for not spoiling it. :D
I have heard a few interpretations of the title of the book - that Elinor stands for sense and Marianne for sensibility, or that CB stands for sense and Edward stands for sensibility, but in my opinion Sense and Sensibility is the journey they go through (referring to my other post), switching between the glands of both these emotions. In answer to your question Kiki - I was actually an avid reader of books before, but not classical ones. I used to read all the popular books (Harry Potter, Narnia, that sort of thing) plus books of my personal choice, but nothing that was really deep. To your question Mona - I actually got the book Robinson Crusoe by Daniel Defoe today so I will probably start reading that tonight, so look for me on the Daniel Defoe board soon! I'll still keep talking about this awesome book, though.
I think those interpretations are a little shallow, beause, as you say, they both (or all) have to put some water in their wine.
Have a lot of fun doing Robinson Crusoe. I have got Moll Flanders, but still need to get through Eliot's The Mill on the Floss (hard work)...
What I was trying to communicate was that the title Sense and Sensibility, in my opinion, has an unrecognized profound meaning, which reflects the story considerably. What I was saying earlier about the characters journeys I still stand by - I don't believe that one character was meant to represent sense and another sensibility - I believe that each character had periods of both of these feelings, and the title represents this. If I asked you what Sense and Sensibility is about, you would probably say "Well, two sister move to...etc." I don't agree. I don't think the book is about Elinor and Marianne (it obviously revolves around them, but read on), but instead about two characters that personify themselves through Elinor and Marianne - Sense and Sensibility.
Yes, that is a profound meaning, and will be more right than only sense in one person and sensibility in another.
They both go indeed through a journey so it does not make sense to put the two sisters each in one category.
The ironic thing is that Marianne calls Elinor unfeeling. That is certainly not true. Only, Elino is restrained, but that will not exclude sensibility from her... I think Marianne gets a little sense in the end. Not that she marries CB only out of snese, I don't think, but she restrains herself more and does not throw herself totally at anyone's feet anymore. She no longer is impulsive as she was with Willoughby...
I completely agree. I found it funny that Elinor's sense led her to marry the man that she had the sensibility to, and Marianne's sensibility led her to marry the man that she knew it was sensible to marry. This backs up what I was saying earlier.
For the marriage of Elinor, maybe there was sense involved, though, albeit very little. If she had wanted more money, she shoud have gone to look for a loaded man. Instead, she married one who was going to be a poor curate. But then, that was probably better than just staying unmarried (whom would she have met in Barton?). Mother did not have that great an income and they would have depended on charity eventually... Marrying was the only way out.
Other than that, Marianne eventually marries the older bachelor. I think she did feel something for him (that would account for the irony from the beginning) eventually. That said, with any luck, she would have been a widow at a reasonable age and could have married again. Not being cruel on brandon, but people did not become very old. Even if he were to live until 60, she would only have been 38. 80 was almost immortal... Although most gentlemen died because of accidents, not having child birth.
But, both girls come to see some errors in their ways and cnclude the middle way is the best...
Yeah, again I agree. Something I found rather unexplained properly is why Lucy eventually married Robert. I didn't get the whole background around that. I got the basics though. I just didn't get the motives. Care to explain?
I think it was her love of money. She fell in love with Edward and saw a great future as grand lady (only being the niece of a teacher). But, after years of engagement, when their relationship finally comes out, Edward is disinherite. So, she can make a big black cross over her future as grand lady and will become 'just' a clergyman's wife (=have a lot less money than anticipated). But, the brother, who is now the heir, has an eye on her and she decides to switch brothers and secure her future as grand lady...
I think that was it. She was a little bit of a selfish nasty cow. A little like her sister-in-law, actually.
:lol:Quote:
That said, with any luck, she would have been a widow at a reasonable age and could have married again.
It wasn't only the age difference that put me off. I never felt that 18 year old Jane was making a mistake by marrying almost 40 year old Rochester; there's so much chemistry between them. But with Marianne and Colonel Brandon we just don't see how she overcame her initial contempt for his flannel waistcoats and rheumatism and unromantic ways. We are told that it happened, but we're not made to feel it, IMO, so it's not very convincing. Do they exchange any conversation at all? I really can't remember any, but that could just be my faulty memory.
I thought it was that passage about 'after a three week absence in which CB could do nothing in the evening hours but calculate the difference between 36 (?) and 17, brought him back to Barton in low spirits.' And then something about the fact tat he needed all the improvement of Marianne's spirits and all the encouragement of her mother...
:lol:
I think we are led to believe that Marianne has changed her mind. However, maybe her mother helped a little... She, as his future mother-in-law, definitely participates in the encouragement he receives... At any rate, for her it's also a win, because she'l never have true financial trouble again.
The question is what went on at their first meeting after her near-death.
I agree kind of. However, I think that this book, because it was Austen's first novel, is lacking of experience. It could have been much thicker, and intricate, and outline the finer points of the development of their relationship. On the other hand, I think without that it makes the story more entertaining, so I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by mona amon
Just a side note here and a suggestion. I have read this books many years ago and I love the film adapation by Ang Lee. The screenplay won best Oscar and was written by Emma Thompson. I think if you saw the story acted out on film, you would understand CB and the subtle relationship which forms between he and Marianne. I just love the film and have seen it many times over by now...one of my favorite novel adaptations. I agree that Willoughby was pretty low to have hurt two (used) woman as he did; but I think even in his character we can find some sense of human frality and forgiveness, when interpretted in the film version; he is very much dictated to by his fortune and it is true that he and Edward are very different. If I had the time, I would re-read the book; but I don't presently. Still it's interesting to read all of your comments. It's a lovely story and I think that Marianne will indeed be very happy at sometime having married CB.
Marianne, as I think a lot of women and people in general do, had to stop and listen not necessarily to reason but to silence long enough to hear her own heart really talking and I think that is what occasioned her eventual decision.
I kind of agree with Janine, but this is the book we're talking about, not the film (which I haven't seen by the way).
Yes, I think it is amazing how Willoughby gets somehow redeemed a little... It was one of the great surprises. Much like the one of Darcy... (not to spoil it for Aamir) I think that is very skilful writing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Kiki, are you talking about the film or the book? I haven't seen the film yet, but in the book I don't feel he gets redeemed at all. All we find out is that he did love Marianne, in his way, and I never for a moment doubted that.
I really feel that Austen didn't have to make Willoughby quite so bad. A weak young man who didn't have the courage to risk marrying Marrianne would have been enough. Did he have to be such a cad and seducer into the bargain? :)
I am talking about the book. I can't remember the film... Saw it once or twice (the first time not reading Austen), but the end was different according to the teacher. I think it is the fct that there is no conversation between Wiloughby and Elinor... Fans, please help me out here.
I think the difference between us lies in the fact that you didn't doubt his love where I did.
At the moment where he sends back the letter to Marianne after ignoring her a while, I really was astonished. And then the thing about that girl he eloped with and abandoned heavily pregnant... I really had something like: 'phew. That was a close call for Marianne.' I think that that chapter where he talks to Elinor is important for theones who doubted him.
I don't know, I thought that all that was really intended to make us, and him doubt... And then have the aunt say: ' might have let you marry her if you had only told me...' nana. Actually he is really (loathsomely) pitiable.
Isn't it ironic that CB needs to clear up the mess of Willoughby in two women?
In that case, he would certainly seem a little redeemed in the end. Marrianne was my favourite character in this book, so I guess I refused to believe that her judgement could be completely wrong.Quote:
I think the difference between us lies in the fact that you didn't doubt his love where I did.
I wonder why Colonel Brandon doesn't warn the two girls about Willoughby. Is that explained in the book?
Marianne wasn't really the problem for me. One can see anything he likes when in love... I guess it was his conduct in London hat mad it 'obvious' that he had been having her on...
The grounds for CB not telling the two about the eloping of Willoughby, I think, lie in all-governing discretion. The reputation you had in society largely depended upon your own conduct in public. Sadly not on things you did somewhere else, unless they had been heroic. Certainly bad/dishonorable things were never told of out of discretion for the other. So CB does not tell of the fact that Willoughby eloped, never got married, still got the girl pregnant (when he gets that letter in the middle of that party at the Middletons) because he does not want to disgrace Willoughby, as that is improper. On top of that, telling the whole story would also get his own past into the bargain (the mother of the girl who is his old love) and that is irelevant. Not that it is embarrasing, but it's not nice that everyone knows your past... So he tells nothing, with this result. I think he feels guilty by the end about it and therefore makes up at least with Ferrars (to touch one of the sisters at least). It's another Austen-big-laugh about manners and how they affect the rest (badly).
POSSIBLE SPOILERS ABOUT P&P
Remember that Mr Darcy never spoke about Wickham, which he should have done from the start. Even at the point where Lizzie knows, she cannot tell out of discretion for Darcy's sister. Up to the point of course that Lydia elopes. Something they could have foreseen long before that... That is a little more dishonorable, though, but the situation lies in the same line...
POSSIBLE SPOILERS OVER