But that's the nature of the beast, it's just a question of perspective in the end. Naturally though, I value literature above computer games and so see it in those terms.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluevictim
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But that's the nature of the beast, it's just a question of perspective in the end. Naturally though, I value literature above computer games and so see it in those terms.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluevictim
Moby Dick would make an excellent mini-game. Maybe a downloadable game? :lol:
To make a game out of classic literature is one of the most offensive ideas I've ever come across. To twist a piece of literature out of its natural shape and adapt it into some practical use insults not only the work of literature itself but its writer as well. I am sure a writer may want to jump out of his grave and vent his complaint immediately after he sees a game created out of his work. In my opinion, literature is art. We are supposed to appreciate it by our hearts.
Can you see a distorted view?Quote:
Originally Posted by bluevictim
(keep in mind that Dante is huge muscular figure with a skeleton scythe)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdqY2a9iRXw
No, obviously it will not ruin the Divine Comedy. The poem has survived nearly 700 years, there's no reason that a video game (no matter what its quality) could even remotely ruin Dante's reputation. The people who determine its reputation - i.e. academics - will not take the game into consideration, and the people who determine the game's reputation will not take the poem into consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluevictim
But of course to imagine Dante as a muscular Crusader-figure wielding a large scythe is to completely miss the point of the Inferno, and therefore the game certainly misrepresents the poem, and thereby the poem in public consciousness.
Heh. Whatever. That game looks like fun!Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarous
So, I'm assuming you feel the same way about all movies adapted from classic literature?Quote:
Originally Posted by virginiawang
There's a spanish adventure game adaptation of The Name of the Rose, called La Abadía del Crimen (Abbey of Crime).
I haven't played it but it seems it's good. You can download it here. It's in various languages.
And there's already a Robin Hood adventure game from Sierra called Conquests of the Longbow. From 1991 or 92. And it's here.
That's true about misrepresentation in the public consciousness. You get the Frankenstein, bolt through the neck, dumb monster effect; of course nothing like the original.Quote:
Originally Posted by mayneverhave
Yes, literature, film, computer technology are different mediums and directors can do with it what they like, but it ain't half irritating sometimes.
Having said all I have said however, I don't really care about the game much, one way or the other.
Thinking about it, film has actually - and in a sense with Dracula too - distorted this work. I mean the majority of people in one of my classes, back in school, thought that Frankenstein was actually the monster's name. Just think of all the teenagers and game players that will now assume that Dante was some kind of demon killer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Yes absolutely. Film has massively distorted Dracula and Frankenstein, they have taken on a whole new myth, which has nothing to do with the novels which bred them. Just consider the huge amount of film spin-off's that these two novels have had too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adagio
Of course the game will never be widely popular, but many of those that do will still associate something outrageous with it as you say. Really the Divine Comedy is a supreme work of literature, but look what the modern world does with it.
Anyway with a bit of luck we will be able to purchase "Dante's demons" with every Happy Meal soon; or something like that.
Not only that, but the poem's Dante actually faints from fear on occasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adagio
And hopefully a nicely detailed one of Ugolino gnawing on Ruggieri's head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
All media, whether books, films, video games, newspapers, or magazines, will continue erecting off each other, because they inspire each other, some more directly than others. Personally, I do not feel bothered by their making a game out of Dante's Inferno, and, following the supplied YouTube link I felt quite impressed by the graphics, but what I really dislike involves the misrepresentation - Dante rescuing Beatrice from Lucifer? From what I recall, there exists nothing in the whole of The Divine Comedy that resembles this elementary plot; if anything, I would say Beatrice actually rescued Dante by sending Virgil to him to guide him through hell and purgatory. I do not think the makers of this game adapted it from Dante's Inferno, and I question if the makers read any more the Cliff's Notes edition to create it; they took Dante, Beatrice, Lucifer, and hell, subtracting even the basics of the epic plot, then added the predictable heroism to give the game some brainless Mario-and-Luigi-rescue-the-Princess-from-Koopa-like hype. I agree with others that it would take a lot to ruin The Divine Comedy, but the makers of this video game have certainly given it a beating.
As to whether this should inspire gamers to read The Divine Comedy, and I wish them all the luck, I do not feel confident many of their undoubtedly strong thumbs could get through the first canto, provided what a misrepresentation this video game suggests. I have felt inspired to read a book, having seen the movie, or something along those lines, but at least the movies tend to follow the bare essentials of a novel's plot; this video game, on the other hand, bears no similarities. A gamer would more likely begin reading Inferno expecting to encounter some heroic tale of a man attempting to rescue his deceased love from Satan holding her hostage, then feel overwhelmed with the total change in plot, the great amount of history, politics, theology, and other such allusions, and particularly find that Lucifer never held Beatrice hostage, but that she sat in a high circle of paradise. The misrepresentation would seem overbearing, I think, for the average reader, and most, I think, would likely toss the book away with exclaimed frustration in a cracking, peripubescent voice. If the game actually followed some kind of resemblance to the plot of Dante's Inferno, I would have a different opinion, but this sounds like one of the most absurd media adaptions I have ever heard of, created quite obviously by people who have no intellectual capacities away from a game console. Even if the makers had created the game according to the plot, I do not think it would go well amid fans and gamers - sure, it sounds adventurous, but the complexities sound too great.
As much as I appreciate and respect your creativity, please tell me you meant this as a joke, Drkshadow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkshadow03
I guess I stand by my opinion that media will keep expanding off of each other, and I would likely not play it (not a fan of video games), but as long as it would bear some resemblance to the plot, I feel curious how it would turn out, especially if it inspired some people to read Melville's masterpiece. Since heroics, action, and conquering seem such common themes in video games since they started, Moby Dick might go well, but I would advocate more for something like Cervantes' Don Quixote, where one can play as a brainless knight committing almost random acts of violence and perjury in the name of chivalry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi
Psht, you're just jealous you didn't think of it first.Quote:
Originally Posted by mono
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayneverhave
Surely I'm not the only one here tickled by the irony of all this hand wringing about misrepresentating Dante to the public, when The Divine Comedy did essentially that very thing to Virgil?Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Guys, guys. I think we're not appreciating the enormous raw potential we have here, the possibility for great and marvelous things. I talk, of course, of Clash of the Classics: Brawl Arena. Can Darcy take on Rochester? Can Holden Caulfield out-angst Rodion Raskolnikov? Who can kick off more tragically in a head to head death match, Juliet or Bovary?
I think this is worth exploring.
I think it's perfectly fine to have a classic influence a game due to it being in the same vein as a movie or even another book (as someone pointed out earlier, this Virgil in The Divine Comedy) But as I pointed out earlier the unclear and distorted view the game throws upon the players is obnoxious, that being the bottom line.
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkshadow03
Good point, very good point, but at least Dante kept Virgil as a man and fellow poet of honor of mutual Italian descent; Virgil maintained his literary roots throughout the Inferno and Purgatorio, and Dante saw him as a man of virtue, patience, and influence. This video game does even give Dante the justice as a poet, but instead an immense warrior clad in armor, battling Lucifer and his cronies for Beatrice, allegedly trapped in hell. Dante may have taken Virgil a bit out of context in The Divine Comedy, but he hardly portrayed the epic poet as a fictional character, rather as a dignified, wise, and tolerant individual; the gaming industry, however, has taken Inferno ridiculously far out of its context, going to so far as to subtract the plot, using only its basest elements.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluevictim
The thing is, if this game is successful will that then inspire the creators (i forget the company name) to look at other epic poems and literature to create their next project? I think so. In fact, as they wanted a sword-wielding hero why didn't they just choose The Odyessy instead of 'Dante's Inferno', I mean atleast that way they didn't have to blow things completely out of context.
Edit - double post.
No, quite the opposite. I've seen some movies made from classic literature that really touched me. Perhaps movies and theaters are also forms of art, and they do not devalue the original literature at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi
No. They'll just make a sequel. Duh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adagio
Indeed, if they felt they could bludgeon an epic poem like Inferno, they could easily pass it along to Purgatorio, but progressing to Paradiso would contradict the meaning of the game since . . . well, why did Dante go to heaven in The Divine Comedy again? If Beatrice awaited rescue in the hell, then obviously they should have no reason to meet in heaven - perhaps a place to escape?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adagio
I think the imagery definitely attracted the gaming industry to The Divine Comedy - even the title sounds alluring - monsters like Minos, the wrathful drowning in the river Styx, speaking trees, sinners trapped under ice - it sounds unsettling enough to put into a video game, but I wonder how much of even that they retained in the making of the game. Things like The Odyssey and The Iliad, I think, have gotten too Hollywoodized to turn into a video game any time soon, especially the latter; if they did, I would just wonder if Achilles would bear any resemblance to Brad Pitt. If they could dissect The Divine Comedy, I have no doubt they could do the same to Edmund Spenser's The Faerie Queene, but that poem does not likely contain enough action, the same to Ovid's Metamorphoses.
What about Greco-Roman plays? Oedipus has a bit too much incest for their taste, but you never know for sure where their joysticks will lead. Perhaps Iphigenia in Taurus or Electra? What about The Æneid?
:lol::lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkshadow03
So, video games aren't forms of art?Quote:
Originally Posted by virginiawang
I definitely don't approach them as such. Some games certainly posses artistic qualities, but works of art? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi
Are you a serious gamer? Because I'm assuming you're not, because if you were you would know that there is as much if not more art involved in games as there is in movies.
Depends on what you mean by "serious". I have an x-box 360 within eye-shot, and have been playing video-games since I was a child.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi
And I'm not sure serious has anything to do with it. I highly doubt a "serious gamer" or what I imagine to be a serious gamer - say someone who puts games on reserve - is interested in video-games as an art form. They're pure interactive entertainment. There's nothing wrong with that. I enjoy them, people enjoy them, but I don't think they transcend that.
I love owning noobs on Call of Duty 4. I don't criticize the artistic value of it, because there is not any. There is, however, a very large entertainment value. I enjoy that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi
You don't see any artistic value in the extraordinary environments in Call of Duty? The lighting, the attention to detail, that has no artistic value? I often find myself just looking around and enjoying the scenery . . . maybe I'm unique in that way, but to say there is no artistic value there is incredibly narrow-minded. People have to create and build these games from their imagination, so how can there be no art involved with that? But, one may argue, that the Call of Duty series is based on real life things, whether it be current military or World War 2, and therefore no imagination is involved. I guess the same could be said about any realistic painting, then.
I will give you that most games are created with the sole purpose of entertainment (though a lot of art, especially literature, has the same goal), but to say games have no artistic value is, well, dumb. There are games now where art is even the main gola in the creation of the game. Games like Flower, Pixeljunk Eden, and Echochrome are evidence of this.
If you look around at the scenery you're shot in the face and teabagged. There is of course art in the game, there is art in every creation, but the main point is entertainment-- plain and simple.
I have gotten shot when I play a new level, and I'm looking around, actually. Never teabagged though.
Okay, I agree, the main point is entertainment, but art plays a large role.
Seriously though, if you can, check out those games I listed. Art is a huge part of those, and for Flower, art is the main point of the game.
The whole 'games as art' discussion is pretentious and tired. Frankly, people who rush to label games as art aren't really gamers.
There are no games where art is the main goal in its creation. Plenty of indie games like Flower and Braid are unique, and they do have artistic qualities, but even those games are, above all, forms of entertainment.
In a similar vein, you don't play chess to observe the handiwork of the pieces.
I sort of agree with the above poster, but art is in the eye of the beholder.
Video games are entertaining. When i'm killing ZOMBIES woo, in COD5 i'm not thinking about how beautiful they're put together. Visually though, some video games are stunning, so why can't they be considered works of art?
Another thing - i have been to PLENTY of exhibitions featuring video games created by people on display as art. So ah, in my view, yeah, they can be.
Also, i really can't stand it when people get so worked up over an adaption of something. If you're going to allow it to devalue the original piece of work then you're an idiot, good day
I'll play ball.
If I were to take a screen shot of a still of a video-game, that screen shot would cease to be a game, and instead be a still image, i.e. a digitally created artwork. I'm not debating that beautiful graphics are not artistic; it's irrelevant whether visual art is created using paint or graphic design.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
But a still image of beautiful graphics is not a game, and that's exactly why I said games have artistic qualities but are not art. A game requires gameplay, and gameplay is not art. If a game lacked gameplay it would not be a game, but a film.
That doesn't prove anything. The mere fact that there are exhibitions does not prove the truth of the claim their making.Quote:
Another thing - i have been to PLENTY of exhibitions featuring video games created by people on display as art. So ah, in my view, yeah, they can be.
I would agree. If your opinion of the actual Inferno were to change because of the b*stard Dante's Inferno videogame, then you are an idiot. The main thing at issue here is the misrepresentation of the poem to a mass audience, who simply doesn't know any better.Quote:
Also, i really can't stand it when people get so worked up over an adaption of something. If you're going to allow it to devalue the original piece of work then you're an idiot, good day
I can only play games with good storylines - repetitive killing and missions don't interest me whatsoever. If the story doesn't hold my attention I get bored. Final Fantasy is not only the most captivating game I have played but also the most artistic. But yeah I agree to some extent that games are not art. However, I do realise the amount of artistic input that goes into some of them, especially games like Final Fantasy.
How does this not prove anything? We say games can be art, he says he's been to exhibitions where games are displayed as art . . . I must be missing something.Quote:
Originally Posted by mayneverhave
How is it pretentious? And if you think it's tired, don't participate.Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
And I guess I can't argue with you about Flower and Braid being mainly entertainment, since you state this as if you were one of the creators.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayneverhave
This borders on a No True Scotsman fallacy. You're preemptively defining what does and does not count as art (without actually offering any definition by the way) in order to exclude video games as potential art.
A game requires an interaction of gameplay, artistically rendered computer graphics, text, and sound. In other words, it is merely a different medium. Film requires a combination of sound by which I mean specifically music, visuals, and spoken text. The only specific difference you can point to is the lack of user-controlled interaction.
So if you consider films art, and films are merely the equivalent of games without user-controlled gameplay (your own definitions as you set it up in the post), then there is no reason to conclude that games lose their artistic quality once control shifts to a user.
As far as a video game misrepresenting Dante. How exactly does that affect you again?Quote:
I would agree. If your opinion of the actual Inferno were to change because of the b*stard Dante's Inferno videogame, then you are an idiot. The main thing at issue here is the misrepresentation of the poem to a mass audience, who simply doesn't know any better.
Wow. I eagerly await the rebuttal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkshadow03
Because gathering a group of people that all agree on something does not prove the truth of what they're saying. I can gather a ton of people that all believe Elvis is still alive and throw a big convention, but that would not alter the facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi
What is the contradiction here? I've stated that videogames have artistic qualities - i.e. plots, music, dialogue, imagery - yes, like a film, but it is the user-interaction, i.e. the gameplay that is not art. Since gameplay is the vital component of a videogame, and artistic qualities like plot, music, and imagery are secondary, videogames are not art.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkshadow03
I think you can agree that gameplay is not art?
Who said anything about affecting me? I merely said that a Dante's Inferno game would misrepresent the actual Dante's Inferno. It has nothing to do with my personal likes or dislikes.Quote:
As far as a video game misrepresenting Dante. How exactly does that affect you again?
First, I would not agree that that act of playing a game is not art. 99% of the time, sure, but blanket statements like that are ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by mayneverhave
And as to your Elvis comparison, a convention of people who believe Elvis is alive is not very similar to a video game exhibition. In one, you have a group of people basing beliefs on what they percieve as fact, and in another you have people basing what they believe on opinion. You could say the same thing for any convention ever created, since there will always be a group of people there who agree on whatever the convention covers.