Maybe the topic has been out argued as Virgil stated in the beginning. It also could be the time of year. Summer is a time when people are running in all kinds of directions.
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Maybe the topic has been out argued as Virgil stated in the beginning. It also could be the time of year. Summer is a time when people are running in all kinds of directions.
Thanks Jersea,Quote:
Originally Posted by jersea
That makes perfect sense.
Doug
I don't know about Red Zep. I haven't noticed him here as frequently as before, but I did see him here the other day. RichardHesko (I think that's his name) hasn't been around in a while. Pendragon has had health problems and only comes by on occaision. I will say these are all the same arguments you guys have already had, only inspired by a new poster. Is there anything new under the sun? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintermute
A world where everyone obeys an omnipotent power and thus loses his own free will is an artificial factory with dead machines, which funtion all the time without fail. It can never be something perfect. Words that we often use to describe such a place are dull, indifferent, cold, ect.Quote:
Originally Posted by aloe
I just stumbled upon this thread. I agree with aloe. I would like to state my opinion with the hope of not offending anyone. I am not trying to convert anyone, just hoping to give another perspective. I know some of you will roll your eyes at my words, but one cannot understand if one doesn't try. I am one of these Christians that give my whole life to it. I believe in the Bible as the absolute truth. Already many of you have rolled those eyes... I am open to any questions (even if they have already been discussed in this thread). I would like to touch on a bit of everything, especially the very first post.
My religion: Christian, Protestant, Nazarene
My source: Bible (if someone doesn't believe in this being true words then I find it very hard for he or she to understand the Christian faith, because Christians do believe it being true)
The first thing I would like to say about the Christian faith is it is just that "faith". Believing in something that is not necessarily logical or tangible. The reason faith is such a big factor is many things that can't be explained are because our minds are incapable of comprehending it (I believe). For example, someone stated there is no consistent description of heaven. The Bible states heaven is beyond the minds comprehension, so people speculate, hence the different views and the inconsistency.
The very first post asks how can people put their whole lives into this myth. Very simply it is not a myth to them. It is reality. Christianity has many benefits to it. Many people I have heard find it just a bunch of rules and guilt, but I feel then they may want to try a new perspective.
The Bible gives examples of when God changed His will because of a human's choice. He gave us free will so that we may choose Him. Doesn't it feel better if someone chooses to believe in you (support you, love you, etc.) than when they are forced to? The fact Adam and Eve choose not to obey (by the way I believe we obey God because we love Him not because it is the "right" thing to do) is why they were punished.
Hey watch them rolling eyes lol :)
hampusforev: I think it is foolish to listen to the preacher mindlessly. But I don't think that means religion and stupidity go hand in hand. My preacher uses scripture, and if he says something without scripture that I disagree with I turn to the scriptures for truth.
jersea: Maybe to give your soul over to God you may need to try a new tactic (Not necessarily to stop trying). Or you don't believe in Him in your heart? Just suggestions, I admit that I do not have a firm understanding on what you have/are doing in your life.
The Atheist: I just suggest to you to keep an open mind. And remember when doing your math it is all perspective...because in binary 1+1=10 :)
Everyone: Like I said before, I wish not to offend or convert anyone. I am open to questions. My goal is to provide my perspective in a hope to give others a better understanding of where my beliefs, and others with similar beliefs to mine, come from.
Hi ShadowFire,Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFire
And welcome! What do you think heaven is like? Please describe your vision of heaven as specifically as possible. For example:
Will we be individuals?
Will we remember our +-76 years on this planet?
Will we meet other individuals, family members, etc. that we knew on earth?
Will we be able to see, hear, smell, tasted, and feel?
Are there animals in heaven?
What will we do in heaven?
Does heaven really last for infinity?
Anything else you can add. I'm very interested in this, so thanks in advance for your words.
Blessings,
Doug
Well, there has been quite the derail - I tried to return to the original topic - what makes people subscribe to a religion, yet nobody really seems to actually care about that - merely to push forward their belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
In actuality, I think I am one of the few posters who actually gave an answer to that - the rest of this hogwash about pseudo-intellectual rubbish and free will (which, one poster claims to not understand, yet subscribe to, tisk tisk), is technically off topic.
Yes, but it just a shows a lack of understanding of maths and what "free will" is.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
It's usually the maths which bogs people down, because they don't understand the effect of billions of choice multiplied exponentially, or the effect of others. It makes me chuckle when people grasp at U234 [?]as an exception to determinism, when it doesn't matter a hoot in the end.
Pendragon, I agree with you - an outstanding bloke. Red, on the other hand, is just another bible literalist. I just cannot bother with people who refuse to see the wood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintermute
Speaking of which:
I find the irony of those two statements delightful.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFire
Wintermute: As I have said before, heaven is beyond conception. I will give my opinion, but again I don't know for sure. I think we will be individuals with our memory of our time here on earth. We won't have our bodies, so I don't believe we will smell and see. I do feel we will have senses though and feelings. So we will be able to meet others up there as a sense of feeling them near us. I think there will be animals, but I have no support yet for such. There will be eternal bliss. None of us have experienced life with no sorrow. Many don't know how you could possible feel as happy as we will. Again we can't comprehend. We will be in awe and love God, those who are there, so we will worship Him. The Bible says the Lord is preparing a house for each one of us who go. A dwelling not built by human hands (2 Corinthians 5:1 NIV). It also says it will be paradise. Of all your questions the one I can give a definite answer with scripture is that it will last for infinity. Even the concept of infinity is hard for the human mind to grasp. If you would like me to further research this topic with my beliefs or if you have more questions, please ask.
JBI: I am sorry this thread has gotten derailed. And I do realize I am not helping the matter. I again apologize to anyone this is bothering.
The Atheist: The reason I believe in the entire Bible is for the fact I wouldn't know what parts to believe and which not. For example, should I not believe the part that says the whole thing is true? I was not trying to be hypocritical in any sense. I do try myself to keep my mind open on many things. I find my believing the Bible to be absolute truth is not as much being closed minded, as it is a thoughtful choice.
but aren't experiences the basis of all human understanding? I like chocolate because it tastes good. I know it tastes good because it tastes good. You can't prove to me that chocolate does not taste good, nor could I prove to you that chocolate does taste good. And even If I conducted an experiment of 1,000 college students and found that 100 percent of those students agreed that "Chocolate does not taste good", it would prove that generally people find chocolate to not taste good, but the fact that by my experience chocolate does taste good, it negates the possibility of disproving that chocolate tastes good. The same goes for all subjective experiences, like the subjective experiences of both the atheists and theists taking part in this discussion. Whether or not one believes in atheism or theism, it is simply their belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
No, I can't buy that claim. Acceptance of the bible as litarlly true requires the suspension of 1000 years of empirical science. It is a thoughtful choice to become closed minded, and you admit that, because you will always side with the bible despite evidence to the contrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFire
Why can't atheists choose to believe that there is no God without harping on it to Christians? Why be so contentious about what other people choose to believe? This is one reason why I don't care to come here anymore. And the moderators think that politics are bad?
If people have honest questions about the Bible, then ask someone who cares and chooses to understand it. If all you want to do is ridicule someone who chooses to believe in the Bible, leave it alone.
Well, some people see it as a chicken and egg situation - which came first, the theism or the atheism?Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
I like to think that when atheist organisations have televised events, evangelical broadcats on tv, leaflets dropping in my letterbox alongside the religious ones, and all of the other publicity theists give their religions, then I'll probably give it away.
I'm 100% certain that if there were far less christian fundamentalism in the world, you'd see a lot less of atheism.
If not for the atheists who stand up, Dover might be teaching creationism. Which other groups are going to refute the Discovery Institute and the Creation Museum?
Hey, maybe you're happy to let huge, organised groups take over our education and entertainment systems, but I can't sit idly by and let it happen.
I haven't actually seen much in the way of ridicule, but again, it comes back to letting statements stand unchallenged. Should I stop challenging fuel-device manufacturers on their products being rip-offs? Should I accept the word of "sasquatch researchers"? Should I accept the accounts of alien abduction?Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
Seems to me, the last time we believed in fairy stories for a while - the great recovered memory syndrome scam - lots of innocent people ended up in jail, and some are still fighting to clear their names.
Where should we draw the line?
I agree; and I won't be coming back to post further in this thread. I find this whole discussion a bit ridiculous and pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
My intuitions told me that I had once been a devil, which a large amount of people worshipped thousands of years ago. I should say I was rather a good-natured devil, which people always found in legends. I was utterly convinced of my intuitions, which sometimes revealed to me facts that would otherwise be unknown, and I always found myself to feel quite the same as those animal devils did in a television soap opera or some books since I was able to perceive anything. This sort of feelings arose in my heart naturally even before they entered the realm of my conscience.
As far as I know, Bible denounces all kinds of witchcraft, which defined by most people as having things to do with a devil. Dating back to the Middle Ages, Christian churches even had the authority to execute witches for their engagement in the field of some unknown power or in devil worshipping. People considered as witches were also put to death for the common good. I am not pretty sure how Bible explains witchcraft and devils, or how God views and deals with such unwonted cases. I don’t really know what will be the outcome if I surrender my soul to God, so that’s going to be something I will never attempt at. By the way, I just don’t like to feel I’ve been dominated by a power all the time. I will certainly feel a lack of freedom if I will have to look up to God before I make every decision or arrive at each truth.
However I have enjoyed spending time around Christians since my college years. I graduated from a Catholic University and I addressed some of our professors as fathers since the first time we met. They are really nice people, and I always felt their sincere kindness when I listened to them or engaged in a talk with them. It was in this University that I accomplished my dream in English Literature, which I had always wished to study but had not had the chance before I entered this University, so I have had some sincere thanks for Christianity even though I will never become a real Christian.
Good natured devils, soul-stealing gods? What kind of catholic 'university' were you at?
Hi JDC,Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic. In my opinion anything is possible and nothing is certain. I will admit that earth-bound religions like Christianity, Islam, etc. seem like nothing more than human constructs, based in hope, and used to dampen primal fears of death. A wonderful, eternal afterlife promised to the meek is awfully tempting to those of us who choose a gentle life.
What upsets me about religious certainty is that it implies that I'm missing something--that I'm a goober for not seeing the obvious! I have spent a good portion of my life (I'm 52) reading, observing, meditating, praying, and discussing. And the only conclusion I can come to is that no one has a clue what is really going on in the universe. However I do think that evidence is important--and as of today, I have yet to see even a spec of evidence that Christians have found the secret and that everyone else is wrong. On the other hand I have seen overwhelming evidence that I have evolved over billions of years. I have seen undeniable evidence that the universe is unimaginably huge. I understand that our little rocky planet is spinning around in the fringes of a regular galaxy composed of billions of stars and planets which is only one of billions of galaxies in the universe.
To say with 100% certainty that some creator, who happens to look just like us, slapped together this planet and made it so special (among the trillions of others) that it would eventually need to send its only son here to get nailed to a cross because it screwed up in the first place--knowing that it was going to screw up, mind you--seems egotistical in the least.
Then again, being agnostic, I could be wrong.
Blessings,
Doug
Hi ShadowFire,
Thanks for your response.
And thanks for your honesty.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFire
Yeah, because if not, our 70+ years here would seem rather pointless, no? If God is omnipotent, why not just hit the FF button to where its going to eventually get to? I mean it already knows what's going to happen. One plausible reason for not doing so is that it wants us to have our earthly memories. It does however seem that 70 years worth of memories might grow a little stale after a few trillion years in heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFire
So we will be individuals? Not some big ball of communal energy or something? What will we be doing do you think? I mean if we are individuals we will probably get bored just sitting there, no? I'm just using this as an example ShadowFire, but do you think I will be able to do jigsaw puzzles in heaven? How do you think we will keep from getting bored after say a million years?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFire
Good deal! Because I can tell you this with certainty: If the animals that have touched my life over the years--that have given me so much unselfish love and happiness--are not a part of your God's 'dwelling not built by human hands' then I will have no part of it. Heaven would be Hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFire
Why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFire
The concept of infinity if pretty easy for me to grasp--first semester calculus did a pretty good job of explaining it. No beginning, no end--never ending. That seem awfully convenient in the theological sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFire
I think you should Shadow. Not for me. For yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFire
Thanks again for your thoughts and ideas.
Cheers,
Doug
With respect to those who would deny the existence of God, the attempt to deny it only proves the case. For, there is no need for me to deny that which does not exist. Take the earth, for example. Some people say it is round. Others say it is flat. Would a dispute have broken out had not some observed the earth moving out away from them along a flat plane? If previous knowledge had not confirmed for them that the earth is round, for what reason would the dispute have arisen? The dispute broke out, however, because there is actual knowledge which is at variance with what the eye actually sees. Therefore, before the refutation and before the dispute, there was a pre-existing truth. For, if we wish to deny a scientific theory which requires its existence as a precondition, how then can it be refuted? The differences here between denial and existence necessarily presuppose the fact.
Therefore, the attempt to deny the existence of God presupposes the truth that God exists. Otherwise, why would any disbeliever make the attempt to advance such denials? An attempt to deny a thing and argue about it is impossible to put forth apart from the existence of the thing. If there were no basis for asserting the existence of a thing, why argue about it? Who would attempt to refute its existence?
Doubt in the existence of God (may He be praised and exalted) only confirms His existence. Those who attempt to validate doubt in God's existence serve only to confirm the existence of something which requires no need of proof. For, the proof of the existence of God is the very demand for such a proof. Efforts to make understandable such concepts only serve to prove that God has been with us since creation.
You don't often see groups of atheists going door-to-door with pamphlets, or declaiming in malls, or lobbying that their beliefs should be inextricably woven into civil law and national constitutions. But then, not all Christians do that - just the most evangelical ones. Same with atheists. You might be surrounded by quietly devout atheists and never know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
Actually - as an aside and not in any way as an encouragement in the context of this discussion or any other thread on this forum - it's worth noting that ridicule is a massively effective and underused aspect of discourse, and I never understand why people are so against it. Perhaps it helps if one thinks of it as satire or irony. In any case, one of the best ways of demonstrating that an idea is ridiculous is to ridicule it. It's entirely fair that ideas should be ridiculed. Ideas don't get hurt - they're just abstract constructs and they can take a bit of kicking about. And there's a long-standing and respectable literary tradition of doing exactly thatQuote:
If all you want to do is ridicule someone who chooses to believe in the Bible, leave it alone.
I agree though that, for the most part, one should be very wary of ridiculing the people who hold the ideas. That's just a question of courtesy.
Unless the people are politicians or Stevie Nicks. And then you can ridicule them unceasingly, and with impunity.
Check out the theory of the Cosmological Singularity. In physics, all causal chains begin in the Singularity. The Cosmological Singularity is an achieved infinity. And that infinity is God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintermute
Again, this is a theory. It just shows that physics and the concept of God doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.
There'll be endless arguments and theories. And then there's such thing as Faith. It's what you believe in. Faith is entirely personal. And indisputable.
BTW anyone ever wondered what a "real" Christian is? Can one then become a phoney bologna Christian?
"Good-natured devil" reads like an oxymoron....
Imagine a world with phoney bologna Christians and good-natured devils...phew. That sure loses credibility real fast.
dittoQuote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
dittoQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Wow, that makes no sense - Galileo disputed the church's claims on science - does that mean he presupposed they were true, and therefore they were? Aristotle was thought to be right forever, but I think people challenged his views.Quote:
Originally Posted by shahsaab1
Aether isn't what keeps the planets in space, and that was challenged and debunked.
Just because you challenge something doesn't make it true - that's an illogical argument, sorry (blessed be he, etc.).
But, to humor your logic - I doubt believe in either the Christian Trinity, or the Chinese folk religion pantheon - two religions which cannot exist together - does that make both of them right now?
The reason the disbeliever, as you call him, challenges God, is because, quite simply, we live in a world filled with religious people who find it appropriate to go where they are not invited, and preach, and preach, and preach, and then a) make people feel bad for not believing, b) try to hold people back who have different views, and c) use their influence for purposes that are harmful to those who don't believe, or go against the ideology of the nonbeliever. In addition to this, there is the constant self-victimization of the religious person, as someone who is mistreated, and misunderstood because of their beliefs, and a constant self-importance which, going on for roughly 2000 years (in this form, in the Ancient-Greek influenced countries, though it is more like 2400) has finally started to be outwardly challenged, with the balance of power taken away from the institution and given to the individual. The reason, in the past, there wasn't this opposition, is, quite simply, people got burned for it - people still do in parts of the world, that's why there is this opposition now.
Look at what is being criticized, keep in mind - I don't see many people taking stabs at, for instance, Taoism, Buddhism, or the Baha'i faith. The reason is simple - what practitioners of those religions practice is inconsequential and undetrimental to any non-believer - whether someone burns incense for their ancestors, or meditates for clarity, or doesn't drink, or any other such practices (these are, a rather stereotyped few, and by no means reflect the scope of ritual or practice of either of these three religions, or any religions) has no real affect on anyone but the believer. These religions in general don't preach - these religions don't knock on people's doors, or tell people to give them money or they'll burn in hell, or tell children that if they do perfectly healthy things, they will be lost in hell for all eternity.
There are annoying, arrogant, bigoted atheists, but for the most part, atheists just seem like people who just don't want to take any more **** from Bible or whatever text wielding bigots who have no problem trying to **** everyone off who doesn't believe, and then on the other hand, when something practical, such as education, is being done for everyone, scream like a great victim in some Satanic plot against them.
There are good and bad people on either side, but quite frankly, the reason atheists or nonbelievers find it necessary to contradict, and deny outright the existence of God, and seek to display the illogicality of such an argument is because the believers are so damn adamant on displaying how great and mighty, how benevolent and righteous their god(s) is/are, and by extension, those who follow them are.
Nobody here really seeks to display the illogicality and nonexistence of the Eight Immortals, because, quite frankly, whether they exist or not has no real bearing on anyone besides those who worship them, whereas the denial of science has been proven to set back education and to have cemented itself into the political discourse of our time - thereby, it becomes not just something that matters to believers, but something that is, because of the practices and organizations of these religions, affecting everyone.
I may tease my friend about her belief in the old woman with soup, but ultimately, I recognize it as a harmless belief, one that requires nothing of her, and in that sense, have no real malice against it, and no reason why I should suggest to her its illogicality and ridiculousness. On the other hand, the Jewish missionaries that stop me on the street (Jewish missionaries that only work within the Jewish community to increase observance, not convert people) annoy me, and I have to tell them off every now and then, because, quite frankly, I don't see why I should be bullied by a pack of them into having justify why I am not going to pray in the morning, or going for a quick prayer with them in the bus stop.
Even this theory though, though it perhaps may allude to a God, comes no closer than anything else - it doesn't suggest which god, whose god, what kind of god, etc. or what this God's powers are, appearance is, existence is, or anything of the sort - the theory leaves, perhaps, room for vagueness - it does not, however, even come close to proving anything we understand about a "deity" as true, and doesn't pretend to - there has been more ink spilled over Filioque to show that not even Christians understand what the hell they are actually talking about, so, ultimately, I don't think this theory comes anywhere near proving anything - it perhaps justifies a mild agnostic urge - in that it creates an uncertainty in the non-existence of a potential deity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunted
So, that makes bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, Vishnu, Thor, Osiris and the Cottingley Fairies all real as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by shahsaab1
Excellent logic!
Not Stevie Nicks!Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
It even goes a step beyond that, because theists try - often successfully - to enforce their "god-given" morality onto all others. Not pointing out the contradictions would be surrender, in my view, and I really don't want to give up eating bacon.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
I think you'll find that Bigfoot takes a capital letter.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
I now have to burn you.
Faith (from LDS.org): "The Apostle Paul taught that "faith is the substance [assurance] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). "Alma..." (a Book of Mormon Prophet: my notation) "... made a similar statement: "If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true" (Alma 32:21). Faith is a principle of action and power. Whenever we work toward a worthy goal, we exercise faith. We show our hope for something that we cannot yet see."Quote:
Originally Posted by virginiawang
Jesus understood His gospel would not be accepted by all, even by those who received it; and gave His disciples (and us) further insight in the following parable on people and their receptiveness to His word:
The Gospel According to Saint Matthew
CHAPTER 13
" 1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 ¶ Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. "
James E. Talmage, in his book "Jesus the Christ", Chapter 19, further elucidates for our benefit:
" Further exposition may appear superfluous; some suggestion as to the individual application of the contained lessons may be in place, however. Observe that the prominent feature of the story is that of the prepared or unprepared condition of the soil. The seed was the same, whether it fell on good ground or bad, on mellow mold or among stones and thistles. The primitive method of sowing, still followed in many countries, consisted in the sower throwing the grain by handfuls against the wind, thus securing a widespread scattering. Running through the Galilean fields were pathways, hard trodden by feet of men and beasts. Though seed should fall on such tracts, it could not grow; birds would pick up the living kernels lying unrooted and uncovered and some of the grains would be crushed and trodden down.
So with the seed of truth falling upon the hardened heart; ordinarily it cannot take root, and Satan, as a marauding crow, steals it away, lest a grain of it perchance find a crack in the trampled ground, send down its rootlet, and possibly develop."
"Seed falling in shallow soil, underlain by a floor of unbroken stone or hard-pan, may strike root and flourish for a brief season; but as the descending rootlets reach the impenetrable stratum they shrivel, and the plant withers and dies, for the nutritive juices are insufficient where there is no depth of earth. So with the man whose earnestness is but superficial, whose energy ceases when obstacles are encountered or opposition met; though he manifest enthusiasm for a time persecution deters him; he is offended, and endures not. Grain sown where thorns and thistles abound is soon killed out by their smothering growth; even so with a human heart set on riches and the allurements of pleasure -- though it receive the living seed of the gospel it will produce no harvest of good grain, but instead, a rank tangle of noxious weeds. The abundant yield of thorny thistles demonstrates the fitness of the soil for a better crop, were it only free from the cumbering weeds. The seed that falls in good deep soil, free from weeds and prepared for the sowing, strikes root and grows; the sun's heat scorches it not, but gives it thrift; it matures and yields to the harvester according to the richness of the soil, some fields producing thirty, others sixty, and a few even a hundred times as much grain as was sown."
"Even according to literary canons, and as judged by the recognized standards of rhetorical construction and logical arrangement of its parts, this parable holds first place among productions of its class. Though commonly known to us as the Parable of the Sower, the story could be expressively designated as the Parable of the Four Kinds of Soil. It is the ground upon which the seed is cast, to which the story most strongly directs our attention, and which so aptly is made to symbolize the softened or the hardened heart, the clean or the thorn-infested soil. Observe the grades of soil, given in the increasing order of their fertility:
(1) the compacted highway, the wayside path, on which, save by a combination of fortuitous circumstances practically amounting to a miracle, no seed can possibly strike root or grow;
(2) the thin layer of soil covering an impenetrable bed-rock, wherein seed may sprout yet can never mature;
(3) the weed-encumbered field, capable of producing a rich crop but for the jungle of thistles and thorns; and
(4) the clean rich mold receptive and fertile. Yet even soils classed as good are of varying degrees of productiveness, yielding an increase of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred fold, with many inter-gradations."
Some Bible expositors have professed to find in this splendid parable evidence of decisive fatalism in the lives of individuals, so that those whose spiritual state is comparable to the hardened pathway or wayside ground, to the shallow soil on stony floor, or to the neglected, thorn-ridden tract, are hopelessly and irredeemably bad; while the souls who may be likened unto good soil are safe against deterioration and will be inevitably productive of good fruit. Let it not be forgotten that a parable is but a sketch, not a picture
finished in detail; and that the expressed or implied similitude in parabolic teaching cannot logically and consistently be carried beyond the limits of the illustrative story. In the parable we are considering, the Teacher depicted the varied grades of spiritual receptivity existing among men, and characterized with incisive brevity each of the specified grades. He neither said nor intimated that the hard-baked soil of the wayside might not be plowed, harrowed, fertilized, and so be rendered productive; nor that the stony
impediment to growth might not be broken up and removed, or an increase of good soil be made by actual addition; nor that the thorns could never be uprooted, and their former habitat be rendered fit to support good plants. The parable is to be studied in the spirit of its purpose; and strained inferences or extensions are unwarranted. A strong metaphor, a striking simile, or any other expressive figure of speech, is of service only when rationally applied; if carried beyond the bounds of reasonable intent, the best of such may become meaningless or even absurd."
For those of faith who might feel saddened, or even persecuted for their faith by others' words in this, or any other, thread... A scripture from my faith:
D&C 101: 35 "And all they who suffer persecution for my name [Christ], and endure in faith, though they are called to lay down their lives for my sake yet shall they partake of all this [His] glory."
Sincerely,
tailor STATELY
Definitely not. It is just a noun as is lion, tiger, yeti, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
Even worse, bigfoot and yeti are definitely improper nouns!
:D
Thanks - most of us have read the bible. Your repeating some of it doesn't enhance it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by tailor STATELY
(And if you include internet chat as persecution, I think you have a persecution complex rather than what the bible describes. That was more aimed at christian martyrs, of which there are very few, nowadays, but hey, if it makes you feel better, go for it.)
I speak not of false bigfeet, but of the one true Bigfoot.
Just step up to this pyre, please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Are we reading the same thread ? (LOL)Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
The originator of the thread implied a newness to the idea of Christianity. This is a literary forum... Hence the scriptural citing and elucidation to what I thought was a worthy response to the topic.
D&C 101: 35 "And all they who suffer persecution for my name [Christ], and endure in faith, though they are called to lay down their lives for my sake yet shall they partake of all this [His] glory."... Written December 16, 1833 and pertains to past, present, and latter days.
No... No complexes here, thank you. Anchored in Christ.
Persecution takes on more forms than dying for the faith. Some in this thread have stated a desire not to return to the Religious Texts discussions for various reasons: derision, contension, off topic remarks, and 'ad hominem' attacks are what I have found most notably. Driven away?... Food for thought.
I pray I have not been too unfair in my humble comments... I've learned much from those of diverse views and plan to study a treatise by Blaise Pascal who I found mentioned in a wiki about "Atheism" [ I had no clue how many different sects were ascribed to Atheism ! ]
God (or no one if you prefer) bless,
tailor STATELY
Ah, that one!Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
"Sects" is a poor description. Maybe flavours of atheism is a better way of looking at it since atheism contains no doctrine and is merely a lack of belief. Some quasi-religious sects are also atheist - Buddhism for example, but atheism is not organised or led.Quote:
Originally Posted by tailor STATELY
Pascal is an interesting case - a mathematician who never understood odds. If you want to look at odds, ask a bookie. Pascal would have gone broke in a week. Also, his argument of moral relativism falls to pieces when you look at secular countries (Sweden, New Zealand, etc.) and compare them to theocracies - Iran, Sudi Arabia, etc.
I understand what you are saying I am still trying to understand what atheism really is. So a question if you don’t believe in god than how does everything work in the world like how does a mother give birth how do we breath, how do we see, who made the trees, the water, how are our bodies made so perfect, like how come the earth is made perfectly round and its all orbiting the sun in such a perfect manner? I mean I have millions of questions like this how is this all possible. I am a Muslim so I read the Quran how is it that the Quran is written so perfect like 1400 years ago we had no technology no science but we still got so many facts from there one such as the Quran says the earth is round and we just discovered that the earth is round when 1400 years ago people said it was flat. There are many versus such as:
Do you not see how He created seven heavens in layers, and placed the moon as a light in them and made the sun a blazing lamp? (Qur'an, chap 71: Versus 15-16)
In the above verse, the word "light" is used for the Moon ("nooran" in Arabic) and the word "lamp" for the Sun ("sirajan" in Arabic.) The word used for the Moon refers to a light-reflecting, bright, motionless body. The word used for the Sun refers to a celestial body which is always burning, a constant source of heat and light.
On the other hand, the word "star" comes from the Arabic root "nejeme," meaning "appearing, emerging, visible." As in the verse below, stars are also referred to by the word "thaqib," which is used for that which shines and pierces the darkness with light: self-consuming and burning:
Did we not make the earth a receptacle? (Surat al-Mursalat, chap 25)
in the above verse, means “living things being gathered together and protected in their dwellings, places where living or inanimate things are gathered together; on which things are piled; place where things are collected
This is impossible to be written by a human especially 1400 years ago without the technology of today.
Here are websites for the Quran and another miracle is that the Quran has not been changed since 1400 years you can find the Quran anywhere you want but it will always be the same all over the world.
http://www.quranexplorer.com/
and a website on the miracles of the Quran. Check it out and please respect my religion as I respect everyone else’s beliefs.
Thank you
Here is the website for Miracles of quran just to prove how its impossible to be written by a human so there has to be a GOD (in my opinion)
http://miraclesofthequran.com/index2.php
It's simple; atheists do not believe in god/s.Quote:
Originally Posted by shahsaab1
That's all.
This is Biology 101. Everything works in the world because life has evolved over billions of years. During this time 99% of all species which ever lived have died out already and are now extinct. We're just lucky that our line is unbroken. If our ancestors had been dinosaurs, we wouldn't be having this discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by shahsaab1
Nobody made them, they were there. The water is a combination of hydrogen and oxygen atoms, both of which exist throughout the entire universe. If a god made all of the universe, why did he bother making it so huge and uninhabited?Quote:
Originally Posted by shahsaab1
These aren't questions, they're fallacies. How is the human body perfect? Pound for pund, we are the weakest animal on earth and only our ability to develop our minds has enabled us to survive. As to the earth, it isn't a perfect sphere and our orbit isn't perfect either. I'm sure most of your questions could be answered if you really wanted to find out the answers, because this is all really simple stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by shahsaab1
Another fallacy. Many people realised the world was round by that time because ships always went below the horizon hull down. Here is one of many sites which show that the information pre-dated Mohammed by several centuries. Science was alive and well long before the Quran was written - please spend some time studying Greek philosophy from ~400BC onwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by shahsaab1
More fallacies, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by shahsaab1
I've had a look through your site and it is just grasping at straws. Take for instance the one on atomic power. It's just an example of some really bad post hoc argument. If I saw that part of the Quran, atomic power wouldn't occur to me, because Mohammed is talking about seeds, which are made up of a kernel (the exterior skin) which covers two identical parts which split when the seed opens. This is why seeds sprout with two identical leaves and has nothing whatsoever to do with atomic energy.
Like the bible, the Quran can appear to predict all sorts of things if you try hard enough. You should check out Nostradamus, whose prophecies are equally twisted to fit later facts.
Here's another one: The Hour has drawn near and the moon has split. (Qur'an, 54:1)
That is meant to indicate man's landing on the moon.
Really? Maybe if they'd blown it up.
But how do I know if you're a real atheist or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
One of the sources for Cosmological Singularity is the book The Physics of Christianity. Singularity is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I don't think the book is to "prove" anything, it simply uses theories of spacetime, quantum mechanics, bio-physics, astrophysics, etc to show how Christian concepts, events and phenomena, are possible. It's not religious writing, it's a book of physics and an intellectual pursuit.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
No, you don't get all your answers in one place. Just like taking vitamins. Even if you're taking a multi-vitamin, you still need to exercise. And then what about brain activities? The list goes on and on. There's a lot out there, each offering partial answers but they can be pieced together for the curious-minded.
tailor STATELY, thanks for your #66 posting. I enjoyed reading that again. Stuff like that never gets old.
Why is this comment necessary? There's no harm in posting that. Some people may not have read that before, and those who did, it should be ok to re-read it, shouldn't it? We play the same songs and music over and over. If you don't want to read it, then skip over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
I'm seeing a pattern of criticizing for the sake of criticizing. It's almost obsessive compulsive.
This thread started with a self-proclaimed devil going to a Bible class just to practice English, then expressed displeasure/disapproval in that experience. Not only that I failed to appreciate the irony, I found it quite distasteful. Plus the mean spirited, condenscending, combative nature of some comments, this thread has lost every sense of credibility and decency. Like others I will not return to this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by virginiawang
Ah, but I'm not just an atheist, I'm The Atheist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkshadow03
;)
Then you're clearly not understanding, because trying to describe my comments as any type of obsession is pulling a very long bow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunted
Placing a bible extract isn't advancing any argument, far less one about being/not being christian.
Hey, it suits some people to spout tracts rather than advance a personal opinion, but if so, then it's my right to call it a spurious argument, which it is.
You need to trust me that if someone merely quoted The God Delusion I'd give it the same offence. I never did like parrots.
By all means, play the music as many times as you like, but play it at home.
The trouble with posting an excerpt from the Bible in support of an argument for the existence of God is that unless you believe in God it's not an argument for the existence of God. The proposition is circular.
That often leads to the 'ears to hear' and 'seed on stony ground' arguments, which boil down, in the end to, 'you'd find it much easier to believe in God if you believed in God' and 'God said there'd be people like you, therefore he must exist'.
For the record - my interest in this is not so much the existence or otherwise of God, but the logic of the argument. As I say, the argument from the scriptures is circular, and I think it's fair to point that out. By doing so, I'm not saying that God doesn't exist - I'm just saying that that doesn't indicate that he does.
I never said I was displeased by attending a Bible class. In fact I said I had enjoyed the comapny of Chriatians since I was in college, but there had been some reasons which thwarted me from becoming a true Christian since a long time ago. So I started a thread here for the purpose of knowing more from people in this forum. As I said before, I've had the most sincere thanks for Christianity until now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunted
Greetings Mark,Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
I tend to agree with you. I think many folks are brought up in families where even questioning the truth of the Bible is unthinkable. As they mature it just becomes natural to say, "Well the Bible says.....".
What do you think would constitute absolute proof of the existence of any god, Christian or otherwise? Is it possible to prove such a thing in words?
Cheers,
Doug
i still cant understand how someone can not create all this its kinda like when your in sand and you see foot steps you knew someone was there its the same way how it just seems that when we come to this world someone had to create the universe and all the planets and everything i just dont believe that this was already here for as scientist say 4.6 billion years it seems kinda impossible i think someone had to create it