April / Novel of Manners Reading: The Awakening by Kate Chopin

Swimming plays a very significant role within this story as it comes up more than once in very key ways. Edna's learning to swim can be seen as highly representative of many of the other elements within this book.

Water as a symbol is highly charged and stands for many different things which could reflect some of the themes seen in this story. Water of coarse is predominately known as a representation for life or the "life-force." It is also symbolized as the womb, and is seen as a cleansing, purifying agent, as well as a symbol of transition.

The story begins at the sea side. Edna is first associated with water, it is when she is near the water that she begins this "awakening" process which she goes through. It is also interesting that at the moment when Edna suddenly learns to swim, marks a time of great change for Edna both emotionally/intellectually, as well physically in the direction her life takes.

Though I cannot find the exact quote now, I thought I remember a scene in which Edna gave Robert credit for her learning how to swim, which as the story unfolds can be interpreted in a few different ways.

Not too far into the story yet, but while I was reading last night, it seems to me the word "solitude" kept popping up. Am I correct in that?
I think that Edna loves her quiet side of life, but at the same time wants more excitement,too.

Edna does begin to draw away from soceity more as well as from the people around her. She takes on certain asepcts of Mademoiselle Reisz who is truly the artist, as well as a recluse. But Edna does not have that same seriousness about her art as Reisz has. She is sort of balanced between Reisz and Ratignolle.

Edna does wish to seek more time for herself and does note wish to have to feel obligated to entertain others.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I thought that definitely was a forshadowing device. I also wondered if everyone thought Edna completely stable; at times I was not totally sure; however I did not perceive her as her husband did later on. I think there was a major difference but still at times she seemed to me numb or in a depressed state prior to her awakening. I wondered what all those years of repression had done to her; what effect they ultimately did have on her.

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I do not see enough evidence on Edna being unstable. She is certainly not very strong. In real life, if there is a soulmate for her to speak to things could have a different outcome in the end. On "years of repression", it's a matter of perspective. There are many women who will want what Edna had, a husband who cared for the family and did love her in his own ways, two lovely children, social circle. She didn't have many friends, but really, how many people around us have many friends anyway ? If she had not known what she wanted from her life in her earlier marriage years, could we say that she was repressed ?

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Swimming plays a very significant role within this story as it comes up more than once in very key ways. Edna's learning to swim can be seen as highly representative of many of the other elements within this book.

Water as a symbol is highly charged and stands for many different things which could reflect some of the themes seen in this story. Water of coarse is predominately known as a representation for life or the "life-force." It is also symbolized as the womb, and is seen as a cleansing, purifying agent, as well as a symbol of transition.

The story begins at the sea side. Edna is first associated with water, it is when she is near the water that she begins this "awakening" process which she goes through. It is also interesting that at the moment when Edna suddenly learns to swim, marks a time of great change for Edna both emotionally/intellectually, as well physically in the direction her life takes.

Though I cannot find the exact quote now, I thought I remember a scene in which Edna gave Robert credit for her learning how to swim, which as the story unfolds can be interpreted in a few different ways.

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Dark Muse, I like how you have expanded on this swimming/water theme. Good to point out the symbolic meanings attached to water; they fit this story perfectly. I recall one very early scene, when Edna sits against the shower/changing house wall and stares out at the sea. It seemed then the connection was being made and this was the beginning of her awakening, or at least her feelings of restlessness that lead to it. I believe that was the same scene, when she verbalised the story of her dream as a young girl; I refer to the one in the field, that felt to her like swimming. I will review that part of the book tonight, to made sure I am recalling that accurately. I should quote the exact passage. Just too tired and lazy to do so tonight.

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It is also interesting that at the moment when Edna suddenly learns to swim, marks a time of great change for Edna both emotionally/intellectually, as well physically in the direction her life takes.

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I think this is the exact time that she suddenly feels unrestricted and free, feelings she has never before allowed herself to be in touch with. Also, she is in control now of her own being, her own body, in the vast, unrestricted freedom of the water. This water begins to free her spirit.

Lynne, I will look through my book to pick up the repetition of the word 'solitude'. I think that is significant. I think that all along' Edna has been in the company of people: husband, children, proper friends, society, etc, and yet, she has been very much 'alone', in a 'negative' state of solitude. Now she is finding her own space and entering into another state of solitude; one of personal freedom, potenially a 'positive' state of being. In this way, Dark Muse is right; she falls somewhere between the two creative women she associates with. As you put it, DM...

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She is sort of balanced between Reisz and Ratignolle

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Quote by Amethyst2010

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I do not see enough evidence on Edna being unstable. She is certainly not very strong. In real life, if there is a soulmate for her to speak to things could have a different outcome in the end. On "years of repression", it's a matter of perspective. There are many women who will want what Edna had, a husband who cared for the family and did love her in his own ways, two lovely children, social circle. She didn't have many friends, but really, how many people around us have many friends anyway ? If she had not known what she wanted from her life in her earlier marriage years, could we say that she was repressed ?

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Amethyst, I think now what I wrote previously was unclear. I merely thought Edna suffered, at first, from a quiet, passive sort of depression; this being prior to her awakening. As she became more herself and awakened, it was her husband who perceived her 'unbalanced' and asked the doctor to observe her; it was the doctor who saw her altered; but he saw that she was new, more alive, vibrant. I didn't mean to indicate I thought Edna truly unbalanced. I just thought, at the start of the story, she was a little 'depressed', due to her repressed position in life, being hemmed in, trapped, and unable to find any pleasure or happiness in her own being or delight in the natural world about her.

Has anyone read Henrik Ibsen's A Doll's House ? I feel there is some similarities in the plot and characters between The Awakening and A Doll's House.

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Originally Posted by Amethyst2010

Has anyone read Henrik Ibsen's A Doll's House ? I feel there is some similarities in the plot and characters between The Awakening and A Doll's House.

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I read the play long ago and I saw it recently; a BBC production on DVD. I have definitely been reminded of the Ibsen play, while reading TA, but I think there are many differences here. I do think that Nora and Edna were both greatly repressed by their husbands and society. In a way, Nora, more so. Do you recall her husband would not allow her to have macaroons; she had to hide them? He was a real tyrant to his wife. I am not sure that Edna's husband is quite as bad. There are children involved in both instances, but I think Nora had a closer bond to hers; although, in the end, that may be questionable. I think that "Anna Karenina" also could be compared to this book, with some distinct commonalities, as well.

I do not feel that Edana's husband was really bad at all nor that Edna was truly mistreated by him, she just did not have an emotional bond with him. But for the most part he did not greatly interfer with her. He was concenred when she began to act in a way that seemed strange to him but he did not really strongly try to impose his will on her.

I do not feel that Edna was directly oppressed by her husband as an individual but rather by the system of marraige as it was established in soceity at that time and the place of women and thier limited choices. In fact I find that Chopin is rather fair and perhaps even somewhat sympathetic to male characters in ther stories. She does not make them look like just absolute tyrants or particuarly villonous, but she makes them instead simply products of thier time. They are as much locked into the system as anyone else. Though they might have more freedom to move out of it than women have.

I've only read the first five chapters, strapped for time and poorly. I don't like Robert, at 26 (?) I would have expected a more mature person, he is what Forster would call 'flat'. Does he change? Could the awakening mentioned in the title be not only of Edna's but his too? Does he truly feel for Edna or is she just another in a long line of unavailable women to keep the boredom away?

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I do not feel that Edana's husband was really bad at all nor that Edna was truly mistreated by him, she just did not have an emotional bond with him. But for the most part he did not greatly interfer with her. He was concenred when she began to act in a way that seemed strange to him but he did not really strongly try to impose his will on her.

I do not feel that Edna was directly oppressed by her husband as an individual but rather by the system of marraige as it was established in soceity at that time and the place of women and thier limited choices. In fact I find that Chopin is rather fair and perhaps even somewhat sympathetic to male characters in ther stories. She does not make them look like just absolute tyrants or particuarly villonous, but she makes them instead simply products of thier time. They are as much locked into the system as anyone else. Though they might have more freedom to move out of it than women have.

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I do agree with you here. You stated this well, Dark Muse. I liked the way Chopin does sympathise with the husband to some extent, but at times he very typically acts like a man in that he is more dominient to the point of being harsh and nasty (like the dinner scene); however, as you say he is the product of the times and he is miffed by the sudden changes in his otherwise passive wife. This change has greatly rocked his world I am sure.

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Originally Posted by optimisticnad

I've only read the first five chapters, strapped for time and poorly. I don't like Robert, at 26 (?) I would have expected a more mature person, he is what Forster would call 'flat'. Does he change? Could the awakening mentioned in the title be not only of Edna's but his too? Does he truly feel for Edna or is she just another in a long line of unavailable women to keep the boredom away?

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My opinion on Robert wavered many times throughout the story. I never really came to solidily feel one way or the other about him. As far as his feelings and intentions toward Edna, well you will just have to keep reading to come to decide what you think of thier relatonship.

The idea of Awakening could apply to Robert in some ways.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

My opinion on Robert wavered many times throughout the story. I never really came to solidily feel one way or the other about him. As far as his feelings and intentions toward Edna, well you will just have to keep reading to come to decide what you think of thier relatonship.

The idea of Awakening could apply to Robert in some ways.

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I think mine did, too; waver. I am still reading the book and Robert has not returned yet, so I can't recall too much about him from prior readings; not about the time when he returns. I will be anxious tonight to read that part. Maybe, it is an 'awakening' for him, as well. I hadn't thought of that before. Interesting.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Maybe, it is an 'awakening' for him, as well. I hadn't thought of that before. Interesting.

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:banana:

I have contributed something to the book club, for once!

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Originally Posted by optimisticnad

:banana:

I have contributed something to the book club, for once!

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Yes, you did; very good observation, optimisticnad.

I am about 3 pages from the end of the book now; was reading it at breakfast.

Just finished Chapter 23. On the back jacket of my copy, it says that "audiences were taken aback by Chopin's daring portrayal of a woman trapped in a stifling marriage." I don't see Mr. P as a stifling husband. I think he genuinely loves his wife, but doesn't understand what is happening with her. I'm not sure I do either. She didn't want Robert when they were together, but now that he's away, she is getting more and more infatuated with him. Janine, Does the story ever say how old her children are? It sounds almost like post-partem depression. ( I'm not an expert on this topic, so if I'm completely off based here, please let me know) She very much wants to answer to no one, she wants no responsibilites. I think she is actually losing herself, insteading of "awakening" to a new self.

I had written awhile ago about how solitude plays the story. Remember, that was the piano piece that Madame Reisz played? And now, it seems, the word "alone" pops up. She wants Mr. P. to leave her alone... and in Chapter 19, in the very same paragraph she recalls..."There were days when she was very happy without knowing why...She liked then to wander alone into strange and unfamiliar places. She discovered many a sunny, sleepy corner, fashioned to dream in. And she found it good to dream and to be alone and unmolested.
I think she's trying to be someone she's not.

Hope I didn't go on too much. I am enjoying the story and everyone's
comments too.

Reagurding Edna an her husband, it is true I do not think he is truly stifling, but in a way I think that is Chopin's point. As the peice is about society of the day, when women did not have a whole lot of choice when it came to love and marraige. I think what is really stifling is the system of marraige as it was set up back than.

Of course in this day and age if a couple grows a part from each other, Edna would have been able to divorce her husband and marry Robert, but naturally such things are forbiddin for women to do now, as it does make some remark somewhere in the book about how Edna never married for love, but now she has indeed found love, and is stifiled becasue she is trapped in a marrige, where she is not ill-treated but in which she is not truly happy.

I do not think it ever says how old the children are, but I think they are suppose to be older than infants. In my mind I saw them as being a between maybe 4-6 years old, but it does not really say so that is just the impression I had.

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Originally Posted by Lynne50

Just finished Chapter 23. On the back jacket of my copy, it says that "audiences were taken aback by Chopin's daring portrayal of a woman trapped in a stifling marriage." I don't see Mr. P as a stifling husband. I think he genuinely loves his wife, but doesn't understand what is happening with her. I'm not sure I do either. She didn't want Robert when they were together, but now that he's away, she is getting more and more infatuated with him. Janine, Does the story ever say how old her children are? It sounds almost like post-partem depression. ( I'm not an expert on this topic, so if I'm completely off based here, please let me know) She very much wants to answer to no one, she wants no responsibilites. I think she is actually losing herself, insteading of "awakening" to a new self.

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Hi Lynne,... and I am three pages away from finishing; well, the second time around, so I know the ending. I think I would agree with Dark Muse on what she said before this post. Don't faint, DM, we are actually agreeing again. I do however, see your point, Lynne, on somethings you mention here or question. I also could not help but think Edna selfish at times, even sort of juevenille in her thinking, and I did question her stability a few posts back. She also seemed a bit lazy to me and definitely, she went to the extreme of not wanting to deal with any responsibility; true she went to visit her children, but it seemed that was not saying much for her, in her attention as a mother, in the long run. I think that when we all come to the ending, we can't exactly say she was a totally rational woman. I was wondering how old Edna is and how old Robert is; also, the other young man she has taken some interest in, before Robert returned back home. I thought someone in the discussion mentioned Robert being around '26 (?)'; was it you, optimisticnad? I thought I recalled reading that Edna was 28 early in the book. I have no idea how old her husband would be, but feel he is a number of years older than Edna; I don't know why I think that; maybe since he is so responsible and conventional. Now if Robert is as old as 26; then Edna and him are closer in age, than I was envisioning.

I do think that you're correct Dark Muse in saying that in this day and age Edna could have gotten a divorce and then married Robert. If we do the 'what if' do you all believe that Robert would have married her if he could and if so would he have been right for Edna? It's a hypothetical question, I know, but thought it might be interesting to entertain the idea and see what everyone's opinion on it would be.

As I read this story, I keep thinking it must have been written in the early part of the 20th Century. It is indeed a surprise and must have been quite shocking a novel to present in the late 19th Century. I was thinking it something like "Lady Chatterly's Lover", but no children are involved in that story although Mellors (Connie's gamekeeper lover) does indeed have a child, but does not live with the child. The ending of course, is much different; but 'convention' and 'repression' are themes in that story, too and Connie is surely 'awakened'. I am now wondering if Edna is ever truly awakened. She seems to think she has been; but there are times she wavers in mood. The real point, I am trying to make is that LCL was written much later than TA, which really surprised me, since LCL caused a huge stir and it was even banned in England; including a court trial for obsenity. Of course, TA does not go into explicit sexual details, as LCL did. But to me this novel feels contemporary, even in the style; so I found it hard to believe it was written so early.

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I had written awhile ago about how solitude plays the story. Remember, that was the piano piece that Madame Reisz played? And now, it seems, the word "alone" pops up. She wants Mr. P. to leave her alone... and in Chapter 19, in the very same paragraph she recalls..."There were days when she was very happy without knowing why...She liked then to wander alone into strange and unfamiliar places. She discovered many a sunny, sleepy corner, fashioned to dream in. And she found it good to dream and to be alone and unmolested.
I think she's trying to be someone she's not.

Hope I didn't go on too much. I am enjoying the story and everyone's
comments too.

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I recall that comment on 'solitude' and I think that Edna is just as trapped in solitude as she is in convention. She goes from one extreme to the other and now she is living a sort of dream existence. Did you get to the part, Lynne, where she moves into the little 'pigeon house'? I think that indicates her want of solitude and aloneness; different than the aloneness she felt with her husband or going along with society and it's responsibilites. I, however, do not think she has truly found herself by the end of the novel.

It may be as you suggest: "I think she's trying to be someone she's not." I must think about that for awhile. I am not sure she knows what she should be. I am not convinced she has found her true self yet.

I cannot really blame her as far as her relations with her children back than if she were married she would not have had much of a choice or option to have kids weather she wanted them or not, having children were forced upon her. So speaking as someone who does not want kids, I could not imagine being stuck with them against my will.

For a woman who did not want to be a typical mother/housewife, her only real option would be to never be in a relationship with anyone, but to be a "spinster"

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Originally Posted by Lynne50

Just finished Chapter 23. On the back jacket of my copy, it says that "audiences were taken aback by Chopin's daring portrayal of a woman trapped in a stifling marriage." I don't see Mr. P as a stifling husband. I think he genuinely loves his wife, but doesn't understand what is happening with her. I'm not sure I do either. She didn't want Robert when they were together, but now that he's away, she is getting more and more infatuated with him. Janine, Does the story ever say how old her children are? It sounds almost like post-partem depression. ( I'm not an expert on this topic, so if I'm completely off based here, please let me know) She very much wants to answer to no one, she wants no responsibilites. I think she is actually losing herself, insteading of "awakening" to a new self.

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I haven't read this book in a long time (and I'm not reading it now), since undergrad days and that's a while back. So it's not fresh in my mind. But that's how I felt too. What was so bad about her husband? What was so bad about her life? I don't think that Chopin's point was a woman trapped in a bad marriage. I think the point is that here is a person who's soul just wants to go beyond the common every day life. It's not so much a woman's lib story but a story of a person (could have been a man, but the author chose to write from the point of view of a character from her gender) of a person who seeks a trascendental experience.

To an extent I agree with you, but from my reading of other storys I have read by Chopin, she is very concerned particuarly with women wanting to express themselves beyond the limits of thier soceity, and about the inablity of women to be able to really express thier passion and desire, both in love, as well as in more spiritual or artistic experinces. She deals a lot with women strugling to break free, not from just the physcial bonds of marraige, but to try and find thier own place in the world outside of the influcne of others and the limitations placed upon them.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I haven't read this book in a long time (and I'm not reading it now), since undergrad days and that's a while back. So it's not fresh in my mind. But that's how I felt too. What was so bad about her husband? What was so bad about her life? I don't think that Chopin's point was a woman trapped in a bad marriage. I think the point is that here is a person who's soul just wants to go beyond the common every day life. It's not so much a woman's lib story but a story of a person (could have been a man, but the author chose to write from the point of view of a character from her gender) of a person who seeks a trascendental experience.

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"trascendental experience".

Is that about the same as Lawrence's concept of "transfiguration"?

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I cannot really blame her as far as her relations with her children back than if she were married she would not have had much of a choice or option to have kids weather she wanted them or not, having children were forced upon her. So speaking as someone who does not want kids, I could not imagine being stuck with them against my will.

For a woman who did not want to be a typical mother/housewife, her only real option would be to never be in a relationship with anyone, but to be a "spinster"

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I understand that, but now she has the children, so what can she do but accept them, love them; they are her flesh and blood. She does not seem to have much maternal love for them; not a truely deep connection. I don't know what to say. I am not sure I buy this book entirely; or the fact, she could just leave children behind her so easily. I don't know why she is taking up with the other young man, she knows she does not love either. Maybe, the children were mostly raised back then, by the nanny, and so women did not find it that hard to disregard them and find their own independence. It just seems that in books like "Anna Karenina", Anna did suffer over the separation from her young son and here Edna seems removed from her children, almost like they are nieces and nephews; not her own children. I feel somewhat sorry for the children, although they seem to love the grandmother and have bonded with her; at least, that is some consolation.

You cannot force someone to be maternal if such is simply not in thier nature to be and from the begining Edna is just not a maternal person. I can understand that, now that she has the children pehraps she has some resposneblity to them, but you cannot exepct someone to just will themselves to be a maternal person, and it is not really her fault having the kids if she did not "choose" to have them as that really was not an option.

I feel that her feelings were genuine for Robert and she truly did love him and would have been with him if it were possible for her to do so.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

You cannot force someone to be maternal if such is simply not in thier nature to be and from the begining Edna is just not a maternal person. I can understand that, now that she has the children pehraps she has some resposneblity to them, but you cannot exepct someone to just will themselves to be a maternal person, and it is not really her fault having the kids if she did not "choose" to have them as that really was not an option.

I feel that her feelings were genuine for Robert and she truly did love him and would have been with him if it were possible for her to do so.

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I can agree that it may not have been planned to have the children, but it did go with the territory of marriage in those days. I find it hard to believe she carried two children and didn't once have a spark on maternal instinct and feel some love for them. The thing is, what makes you think, if she left to live with Robert or even was able to marry him, she would not again conceive and have another child or even more children; then what? She certainly did not seem responsible, when it came to the children she did have. Maybe, she wasn't the maternal type and didn't want to ever have children, then in that case she would have been better off staying unmarried and accepting being a spinster like M. Reiz; such as Lily in "To the Lighthouse".

Being a Spinster back then was not always very easy or favorable and it seemed at the begining of the story Edna did not have the strong personality to do that, and well even toward the end it seemed she did not have it within her to take that path.

But she herself in the story reflects that she never really married her husband for love, (few women did than, few were acutally able to do so) and that could have an effect on her relationship with the children. Having children with a person you acutally do love, would be a very different thing than having children with a person you did not love.

We cannot really say what Edna felt about having children, only that in that time period we cannot very well condemn a woman if she had the burden of children forced upon her, simply becasue she did not wish to live a life completly alone.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I haven't read this book in a long time (and I'm not reading it now), since undergrad days and that's a while back. So it's not fresh in my mind. But that's how I felt too. What was so bad about her husband? What was so bad about her life? I don't think that Chopin's point was a woman trapped in a bad marriage. I think the point is that here is a person who's soul just wants to go beyond the common every day life. It's not so much a woman's lib story but a story of a person (could have been a man, but the author chose to write from the point of view of a character from her gender) of a person who seeks a trascendental experience.

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You could have everything in life and still be dissatisfied. Her husband isn't a bad person, he just doesn't seem to understand her - like when he comes in the middle of the night, wakes her up to tell her their son has fever - she checks, he doesn't have fever and when she comes back to the bedroom she finds her husband snoring away and she breaks down on the balcony and cries, but has no idea why. I thought that was a fantastic scene. It speaks volumes, he comes across - not bad - but inconsiderate.

I agree that it's not so much a 'woman's lib' story, could have been a man, but then we'd miss the point - conventions and rules of society, how men and women behave differently - and were expected to do so, how men can get away with certain things that women can't. A man in this situation and in that time and in those circumstances would not feel as trapped as Edna does. Someone compared this to Anna Karenina, an excellent comparison in this sense but Anna Karenina was slightly more 'melodramatic' - and if that word offends we'll go for 'sentimental' than this, Chopin's novel is much harder and 'real' about life.

I think she lacks meaning and purpose in her life, being a wife and mother isn't enough; in this respect she might be said to be a little like Nora in Ibsen's play (Doll's House), you must be a human being and a woman (or a man) before you can fulfill these social roles. If she had meaning in her life or was made to feel she had worth than I think 'common everyday life' as you say would have been enough for.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I do not think it ever says how old the children are, but I think they are suppose to be older than infants. In my mind I saw them as being a between maybe 4-6 years old, but it does not really say so that is just the impression I had.

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It does, in chapter one: 'Pontellier's two children were there sturdy little fellows of four and five'. I haven't finished the novel so I don't know the time span but at the start they are four and five. Good guess by the way!

Oh I totally missed or forgot when it stated their ages

This is one of those books that I love. While I've not been posting this pat month, I have been reading The Awakening again. I'm always struck by how much I can relate to Edna while at the same time never really being able to grasp her motivations.

Edna's character seeks an immersion in herself. Her wants and desires drive her with litle care to those around her. It is said on more than one occasion that she is not the type of mother to her children that she should be, but there is little in her mothering that others can find fault with. To me it seems as if she goes through the motions of life ensuring that no one may find fault in her behavior, but as the tale progresses she has less and less care for doing so. I remember in school that it was presented as the story of a woman finding herself, but as I'm grown with children of my own I see it a bit differently.

The Edna at the end of the book who drowns herself is the same woman at the beginning of the book who was described by herhusband as "not a mother-woman" and failing in her duty to their children. It seems to me that under the influence of Mme Reisz she sheds the facade that otherwise made her acceptable in society. In contrast to Edna's self centerdness (I don't have a better word) you have Madame Ratingnolle who is the epitome of the ideal mother for that time. She devoted everything to her children, and they were her entire being. I don't see Edna's change as growing as an individual, and I see it more as her shunning of the society whose constraints she deplored.

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Originally Posted by mkhockenberry

This is one of those books that I love. While I've not been posting this pat month, I have been reading The Awakening again. I'm always struck by how much I can relate to Edna while at the same time never really being able to grasp her motivations.

Edna's character seeks an immersion in herself. Her wants and desires drive her with litle care to those around her. It is said on more than one occasion that she is not the type of mother to her children that she should be, but there is little in her mothering that others can find fault with. To me it seems as if she goes through the motions of life ensuring that no one may find fault in her behavior, but as the tale progresses she has less and less care for doing so. I remember in school that it was presented as the story of a woman finding herself, but as I'm grown with children of my own I see it a bit differently.

The Edna at the end of the book who drowns herself is the same woman at the beginning of the book who was described by herhusband as "not a mother-woman" and failing in her duty to their children. It seems to me that under the influence of Mme Reisz she sheds the facade that otherwise made her acceptable in society. In contrast to Edna's self centerdness (I don't have a better word) you have Madame Ratingnolle who is the epitome of the ideal mother for that time. She devoted everything to her children, and they were her entire being. I don't see Edna's change as growing as an individual, and I see it more as her shunning of the society whose constraints she deplored.

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mkhockenberry, quite interesting; I like your take on this story. I think re-reading a story, one gets such a new persective; glad you did so; I enjoyed reading your well thought-out post. Interesting points you made here.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I can agree that it may not have been planned to have the children, but it did go with the territory of marriage in those days. I find it hard to believe she carried two children and didn't once have a spark on maternal instinct and feel some love for them. The thing is, what makes you think, if she left to live with Robert or even was able to marry him, she would not again conceive and have another child or even more children; then what? She certainly did not seem responsible, when it came to the children she did have. Maybe, she wasn't the maternal type and didn't want to ever have children, then in that case she would have been better off staying unmarried and accepting being a spinster like M. Reiz; such as Lily in "To the Lighthouse".

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But isn't the point of the story that she was following societies conventions? She was suppossed to get married and have kids. The idea was probably so ingrained Edna never even considered another option.

I think she felt love for her kids, she went to see them that one time and I don't have the quote with me but it indicated there were some feelings there. But I agree - Edna had no maternal instinct.

Have we talked about the conversation between Robert and Madame Ratingnolle? Where Madam Rat. cautions Robert?

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Originally Posted by papayahed

But isn't the point of the story that she was following societies conventions?

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papayahed, Yes, I do agree and think that is true and what the author is trying to convey. But I think there are many novels, especially in the earlier part of this century when so many women authors made this point with their novels; I refer to Jane Austen as one. So my feeling on this novel is that she takes it a step further with this sexual awakening in Edith.

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She was suppossed to get married and have kids. The idea was probably so ingrained Edna never even considered another option.

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Right, that is true, also. I don't think she had much forethought, as to any other options for her life, at the time she married. She just went along passively, with what was expected of her. I think, for one, Edith was a very passive type person and more layed-back. In this way, she remained weak and not able to actually break out of the mold in which she was cast into; the ending demonstrates that fact and also what option would she realistically have at that point anyway?

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I think she felt love for her kids, she went to see them that one time and I don't have the quote with me but it indicated there were some feelings there. But I agree - Edna had no maternal instinct.

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Yes, that did seem to indicate some bit of genuine love; but as far, as actually caring for them in a 'maternal maner', I didn't see that she ever did so. The visit to the farm was a idylistic I just wonder about that in this book as to it's reality and as to whether Edna was truly acting out things in a normal manner of thinking in regard to her children at the end. You know, they say when you take your own life either of two things: one - it's "a permanent solution to a temporary problem"; two - you hurt the people you leave behind the worse. I see this as both and also something going back pyschologically to Edna's childhood and the very prominent dream she once had.

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Have we talked about the conversation between Robert and Madame Ratingnolle? Where Madam Rat. cautions Robert?

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Not sure but would love to talk about that part. That's a good point to bring up since I do recall her cautioning Robert.

Then again, if you think about it, back then how many women truly would have been "maternal" to thier children? The concepts of motherhood than are quite different than what we think of it today. Women particuarly of an upper-middle class background do not often tend to acutally do a lot of mothering themselves.

Though Madame Ratingnolle is portrayed in the story as the ideal becasue she fits in with the conventions of soceity. Realisticly she probably would have haid a maid that did most of the acutal caretaking of the child.

Can anyone really picture a victorian woman changing diapers?

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Then again, if you think about it, back then how many women truly would have been "maternal" to thier children? The concepts of motherhood than are quite different than what we think of it today. Women particuarly of an upper-middle class background do not often tend to acutally do a lot of mothering themselves.

Though Madame Ratingnolle is portrayed in the story as the ideal becasue she fits in with the conventions of soceity. Realisticly she probably would have haid a maid that did most of the acutal caretaking of the child.

Can anyone really picture a victorian woman changing diapers?

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I agree with that. I was thinking the same thing about them actually doing the chores connected to mothering, such as changing a diaper; these would be things that bond a woman to their baby/child. It is true that in Victorian upper class society women would just hand the kid over to the nanny or the nurse. I was unclear as to just how upper crust Edna and her husband were but I suppose they are up there. I did think it mentioned chores that Madame Ratingnolle did that seemed to create a closer more motherly bond to her children, such as darning socks, etc. I will revisit those lines and see if I can quote anything specifically.

I had a feeling that Edna and her social class were fairly well up there, pehraps they were not among the high elite, but were still well off, and above what would have been precieived as the "working class." It did mention that Edna had servents in her household. There was also the part in which Edna's husband expressed anxiety about what people would think of his finincial state when Edna bought the little house for herself. He had to make it appear as if thier main house was being renovated so no one thought that he was starting to have finicial difficulties.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I had a feeling that Edna and her social class were fairly well up there, pehraps they were not among the high elite, but were still well off, and above what would have been precieived as the "working class." It did mention that Edna had servents in her household. There was also the part in which Edna's husband expressed anxiety about what people would think of his finincial state when Edna bought the little house for herself. He had to make it appear as if thier main house was being renovated so no one thought that he was starting to have finicial difficulties.

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Yes, I do think you are observations and feeling about it are correct. I did recall the husband saying that. Now who paid for the house Edna moves into? I was a bit confused on that point. Also, who pays for that farewell dinner that Edna gives before she vacates the big house, her main residence? I could not quite fathom where that move was to lead her, when the children and husband did return home permanently. I also could not understand, why she was carrying on secretly with the one young man, when within herself and her thoughts she had such deep feelings for Robert. That part did not quite make sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, I do think you are observations and feeling about it are correct. I did recall the husband saying that. Now who paid for the house Edna moves into? I was a bit confused on that point. Also, who pays for that farewell dinner that Edna gives before she vacates the big house, her main residence?

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I think Edna had a little of her own money but I could be making that up.

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I could not quite fathom where that move was to lead her, when the children and husband did return home permanently. I also could not understand, why she was carrying on secretly with the one young man, when within herself and her thoughts she had such deep feelings for Robert. That part did not quite make sense to me.

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I think part of it might have been that Edna found acceptance around Arobin. Arobin knew exactly what was going on and went with the flow in a manner of speaking. Plus Arobin was a fun guuy - he took her to parties, to the track, etc.

When she is speaking to Mademoiselle Reiz she mentions that she has her own money. She says she one some at the races, and she is starting to sell her sketches, it seems the house she plans to pay for herself, as she says that she could live there simply with one servant for the money she is earning.

But I thought she mentioned something about using her husbands money to pay for the dinner.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

When she is speaking to Mademoiselle Reiz she mentions that she has her own money. She says she one some at the races, and she is starting to sell her sketches, it seems the house she plans to pay for herself, as she says that she could live there simply with one servant for the money she is earning.

But I thought she mentioned something about using her husbands money to pay for the dinner.

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That's the same impression I got. I thought she made some money; but then again, it seemed she did not really apply herself with much enthusiasm to work on her paintings and sketches; so I wondered how selling those make her much revenue. My friend, who read the story, too, said she thought it mentioned that she had an inheritance of her own. I will have to check back to see if that is in the text.

The thing that really sort of gauled me was her using her husband's money for the rather elaborate and surely expensive farewell dinner. Also, if those group of friends from society, knew this was a 'farewell' dinner, and she would be moving into her own little house soon, then how did her husband think he could hide that fact? Wow, this book was confusing in someways. Things just don't add up when you take a closer look, or do they?

Here what she says to Reiz about getting the house

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I have a little money from my mother's estate, which my fahter sends me by driblits. I won a large sum this winter on the races, and I am beginning to sell my sketches. Laidpore is more and more pleased with my work; he says it grows in force and individulaity. I cannot judge of that myself, but I feel I have gained in ease and confidence. However, as I said, I have sold a good man through Laidpore. I can live in the tiny house for littler or nothing, with one servant.

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I was a bit confussed about the issue with the husband and the house as well. At one point he seemed to be under the impression that he was going to be living there too. I thought he mentioned something about not having enough room within the place. Or maybe someone else questioned her on that. But just how that was suppose to work I was not quite sure. I do not think Edna really thought ahead, but I think that was perhaps the point, that she acted out of impulse.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I was a bit confussed about the issue with the husband and the house as well. At one point he seemed to be under the impression that he was going to be living there too. I thought he mentioned something about not having enough room within the place. Or maybe someone else questioned her on that. But just how that was suppose to work I was not quite sure. I do not think Edna really thought ahead, but I think that was perhaps the point, that she acted out of impulse.

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I assumed that it never occurred to the husband that Edna was leaving him. He assumed that she wanted the whole family to move to the little house and she didn't correct him in the matter.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

I assumed that it never occurred to the husband that Edna was leaving him. He assumed that she wanted the whole family to move to the little house and she didn't correct him in the matter.

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papayahed, that's a good point. Perhaps he was deluded about the real significance of the little house and what it meant to Edna. I felt as Dark Muse did in that, Edna did not seem to think out clearly, just what would come next for her or for her family; she acted without any regard to the outcome and the circumstances that would follow her decisions. She was indeed 'impulsive' in her actions and desires. Obviously, she was impulsive at the ending of the story as well, or she would not have done what she did.