I believe God to be good, and to be letting the world run it's course, whether that course be bad or evil, because we need our free will etc.
Printable View
I believe God to be good, and to be letting the world run it's course, whether that course be bad or evil, because we need our free will etc.
Hi there, Would a new one like me be welcome here?
Thanks so much in deed.
__________________
Telemarketing companies lists - Outbound telemarketing services
Blazeofglory has it right in my mind. Good/bad/evil are relative conditions for each person, subject even to redefinition over time for that individual. Any broad generalizations about the common good depend ultimately on a generalized attitude about what humanity is. That definition- what humanity is- ah, there's the rub.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
Milton argues that God could stop evil but wanted people to choose Him out of love, not coercion. He could force goodness on us but then He would destroy our ability to learn and think and progress in ways we need to learn.
A rather evil man, for example, tortured me nearly to death and stopped my heart twice. Does that mean that God is necessarily bad? No. His doing so and my miraculous survival eventually forced him into therapy and whereas before he was an excellent liar in hiding the truth of his actions and heart from everyone, because I was so plainly injured and could threaten him with imprisonment, he could no longer hide. He has now made a complete 180 and quite a philanthropist.
Is heaven not a case of God forcing goodness on others? Or does freewill occur there too?
Oh my gosh Isidro. That sounds horrible. My sympathies to to you and hope you have recovered. I commend that it has not warped your attitude toward life and God. You must be a strong person.Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
Quote:
Originally Posted by balehead
I agree .
I guess advising people to do good and be good - in the Holy Quran and the Bible - declares that there gonna be lots of evil , hence , it's a key which tells us that God has intended the two sides of gooodness and evil to be in the world .
:confused: I'm still trying to figure out why the tree no one was supposed to eat from was smack in the middle of the garden; and the talking snake was left to babysit Eve while Adam took walks with God at twilight :( Is that free will or baiting ?) :brickwall
Of course there is freewill in heaven. Could any person be truly happy in any other situation? Could we be happy if we were not allowed to think for ourselves? Of course not. Heaven is the natural result of exercising our agency and choosing what is good and harmonious to other people. In my view, we have existed forever and will exist forever and this lifetime is a concentrated learning arena, much like this forum itself, where we learn by experience that goodness really is more desirable than evil in the long run and we learn by our own experience where happiness may be attained. Do we stop learning and experiencing after we reach the pearly gates? Of course not. We keep refining our characters, seeking for what is benevolent and out of the generosity of our hearts help others to do the same. In this forum we do the same thing. Is anyone forced into this forum? Of course not. But we mutually agree to be here and help each other to learn. Same concept, grander scale. Welcome to heaven my friend - you are already there. :)
And thank you, Virgil. Story of my life. You should learn some of the more grotesque chapters, for unfortunately that isn't the worst! :) I love the comment about the garden of Eden. Beautifully put! :)
:confused: That's always been the rub for me; why free will was needed in paradise. If one has everything that is desirable, why does he need temptation unless it was already forseen that man would fall and needed the training manual, " How to fight off wild beasts and get your wife through childbirth":(Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
The existence of a bad world does not exclude the possibility of God, which, I believe, may have been the intention of the thread title. God is the infinite - infinite knowledge, power, peace, and bliss. That is Atman, or Brahman, or Sacchidananda. Also God is Lord, not just an impersonal light. But there is a spiritual light, but it is not all of God. But even that impersonal spiritual light is pretty significantly different from the material world. It is different in that it is eternal. In relation to that, the material world is temporary. But the material world comes from the spiritual light.
This is not just speculation. Speculation has little value. Just us saying, "I think it may be like this, I think it may be like that." What is the value of that? We should only speak about what we have experienced, what we know is true. Sages and seers have spoken of spiritual existence, of God, and so forth. It is not that they should be accepted blindly. But it is pretty amazing that what they say is so very similar. You can know someone is not a genuine mystic if they speak of negative things, or dark things all the time. What value is that? Not all those who speak of love, light, God, etc., are genuine, but no genuine ones do not.
There are so many topics - one of the most important ones is consciousness. Anyway, it is possible to realize that all is connected, it is possible to realize one's true nature. Our true nature is divine. Divine means, pure love, pure intelligence, pure bliss, and pure peace, etc. This is truth as I have understood it. God is the source of all of that, God is the Lord of Love, as described in the Vedas, etc.
Also, God is the only reality. This is all illusion. The material world. And atheists and all others who deny God also deny that this is illusion, and they decry all who say that it is, they do this very much. But it is a dream within a dream as the saying goes. Enlightenment means to know God, the unlimited divine, the infinite. You see, there are infinite levels of existence. God is the source of all.
Countless persons have realized that this is all an illusion, and they have never told anyone. They have realized the divine truth and they kept quiet. A few of those who realized this gave their lives to teaching others, such as Buddha, Christ. They gave their lives to trying to let people know that they were actually at one with the universe, or in Christ's case, that they were under the care of an infinitely merciful God. The Buddha taught that our true self is buddha-nature, as the Hindus teach that our true self is the divine soul. So that is what Hinduism is about. The self-realized sages and seers from Hinduism are also, like the Buddha, trying to let people know, that they are themselves the divine, that their own source is infinite peace, truth, and bliss.
The argument that an evil world, a bad world, excludes God, is a completely thoughtless one. Some suffer in this world, and this is true. But this doesn't mean we should give up our ideals, our loves, our hopes, our dreams! It's absolutely absurd to say anything like this! The fact that some suffer does not mean there is not good in the world! And anyone who says so, is just as evil as those who are causing the suffering! Who would say, "People have suffered, so do not smile!" Surely I am not advocating irreverent laughter at a funeral. But what I am saying is, it's just a thoughtless proposition to assume the non-existence of an infinite reality because of the existence of a finite one.
Yes, the finite exists. But that does not exclude the existence of the infinite. This is one of the most important truths that has been waged war upon.
The divine means pure love, infinite peace, knowledge, and bliss. The infinite is a truth in our world and in the spiritual world, just as it is a truth in mathematics. The divine is the source of all that exists. The divine is not different from the truth, and also the absolute. These are all accurate of the divine - truth, eternal, and absolute. Truth exists, and by its nature, there is no contradiction in it. But one should only accept what one knows to be true, what one has experienced. But also, one should never give up until one has attained the highest goal, enlightenment. Nothing else matters. Why? Because, in sleep, in dreaming, if it goes on too long, then eventually we become more and more restless, until panic and desparation, to wake up. Dreams are nice in moderation, but how much more splendid is it to wake up, to open one's eyes, to stretch one's legs, walk around and see the sunlight! So therefore the desire for liberation is a forerunning necessity in spiritual life - a desire to know the truth.
Bravo NikolaiI! I thoroughly enjoyed your commentary. Quite refreshing after talking to so many who would like to entirely deny any kind of supernatural existence.
Why is freewill needed in paradise? Because we cannot as intelligent beings be happy under the yoke of coercion. We cannot be happy being forced to be something. Individual agency certainly must exist as it is necessary for happiness and heaven is all about happiness. The point is that we would employ our faculties for choice for good - not out of being forced but out of love one for another. Consider this as pertaining to freewill. Let us assume we all have it, are all celestialized in mind and body etc. We want to create a society among ourselves and make it as beautiful as possible. We have Michelangelo do all the sculptures. How does he choose what to sculpt? It is not an ethical choice he is making, but one of fancy. He can either create this kind of beauty or that kind. Hence agency is needed, as it is certainly requisite to unleashing creative genius. Does that take care of the rub?
And my dearest Virgil, and also NikolaiI, God got me through trauma and over 850 panic induced seizures. I don't have a warped idea of God because the very situation gave me first hand knowledge of who God is. So when I speak of religion, I speak by very prolonged and intense experience. No, I am no prophet and don't claim to be.
If there will be freewill in Heaven, what's to prevent Heaven from becoming like Earth? I always thought the Christian excuse for the world being the way it is, is that man's disobedience through the use of his freewill, created all the nastier aspects of life (it always seemed a bit odd to me that an all-knowing, all-powerful God somehow escapes all blame from setting things up like this, but there you go). But if man has freewill in heaven then what's to prevent man from screwing up heaven too? And what is the point of freewill in heaven? I mean I thought freewill was supposed to be the essential tool that gets you either into heaven or into hell. So what's the point of it in heaven? And considering that God set up the paradise situation knowing full well what was going to happen, how can you be sure he hasn't got a similarly amusing experiment for the afterlife??
The Garden of Eden story has always baffled me. Its like you handing an axe to a madman and then after the carnage is all over, claiming that you are not to blame, its the evil that mad men do that's to blame... or rather the madman himself that's to blame.... but whoever it is, its certainly nothing to do with you handing him the axe.
It's a bad sign when you are sitting at your office doing finances and put work on pause to answer a comment on a thread.
Ahem.
Okay, here is my whole answer (I've been dancing around it trying to keep my entire opinion to myself). We are children of a living God. We have existed forever, as God has, and have therefore the ability and capacity to eventually become as God is now. Yes, God is all powerful and all knowing and nothing He does is an accident. Going back to Milton. Could He not have stopped the original sin? Yes. Of course. But in order to understand this, we need to understand that God is our parent, and a loving one at that, not skulking around waiting for us to mess up so He can cart us off to everlasting damnation. He knows that we fail sometimes and therefore provided a Savior so that we could pick ourselves up and keep going. He knows that we learn most profoundly from our mistakes. He lets them happen because He respects us enough to let us learn without entirely breathing down our necks and striking us with lighting every instant. He let the original sin happen because He knew that if we were to learn from our own experience we would need to be in a rather toughened world with no memory of our having existed forever previously. This is how we really see what we are made of and try to improve it.
In heaven we keep improving but in a different capacity. When you are around someone or something that is bright and beautiful and you love and which inspires you to be your best, you will do your best. That is the difference between heaven and here and why it won't be like earth. We will be in the constant presence of a God we know and love and who knows and loves us and by that love we will be more powerfully inspired to be the best we can be. We would have learned by our own experience here that good really is better than bad and once having made up our own minds about that point and being in heaven, we continue to learn, not by coercion but by love and inspiration.
Who is to blame? Don't even worry about it. Just use the opportunity we have to pick ourselves up off the floor and keep learning by our mistakes. That is what repentance is for.
:smash: I always find myself agreeing with "The Devil's Advocate"; maybe it's the carnage from a fundamentalist upbringing;) I really have never "gotten" several of the "lessons" in the Bible. As I am a very protective parent; I've never punished my child after turning her loose "in the garden".Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
I do have great spiritual faith; and I believe that many of the bible stories are historically accurate, I'm just not always sure of the writers "take on things" :goof:
You are a lovely human being, not omnipotent, not omniscient but fallable like the rest of us. Milton was a poet using the Bible as his reference point, as most intellectuals did till Darwin. The Bible has been shown to be unreliable and historically inaccurate in the main. If however, you are arguing that God is personal to you then best of luck. Being a decent and moral human does not need supernatural cement.Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
Of course I am terribly fallible. Back to Milton:
"God created man sufficient to stand but free to fall."
Yes, you are quite correct about the Bible. It is of the same texture as Swiss cheese. It has gone through so many linguistic translations, so many opposing Popes, changed and exploited by power hungry priests, inspired debates and votes on what doctrine is right with the voted consent toted as God's revelation that it is very hard to believe the Bible. In truth, I would not believe Christianity myself if I did not have another witness.
I do. It's called the Book of Mormon - are you shocked? :) Most folks are. It discusses Christianity in a different light, a more realistic light and one that makes far more logical sense than the Bible. Also, having studied Meso America and spent much time there in the last few years the descriptions match up with ancient American civilizations quite nicely. The whole point of the B of M is to acknowledge the flaws in the Bible and testify that although such flaws exist, the actuality of a Savior and Messiah is in fact real.
Thanks for all the compliments, people. Making me a little blushed and self conscious now. :)
And I love your last sentence there. Made me grin. Beautifully put.
Not at all, as I was saying to one of my wives the other day. Love of my life that Book of Mormon has some bloody good ideas, apart from the religious stuff. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
Oh Jocky, that is beyond the funniest thing I have EVER heard in my life! I am laughing almost to tears.
Good one! :)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Well if you get fed up of your hubby I could always find room for you in my harem. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
My "husband" used to be quite abusive actually. I'm not exactly entirely married. I guess, maybe, kinda. Umm...?
Unluckily for you though buddy, I'm not an easy catch! :)
Thats what they all say. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
:lol: I'm confused, isidro, are you advocating free will or free love; because I don't think Jockey's kidding. Although, I wasn't aware they made Mormons in Scotland :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
Jocky is starting to make me wonder whether or not he is kidding actually. :) We tried to enter Scotland but there were too many harems around already.
Mormons, on a serious note that my conscience is making me say, had polygamy for several reasons, partly to protect women since at that time, they couldn't hold land, vote, etc without a man and when we got rid of it the women were quite upset. The men were afraid of it from the first and didn't want it. Jocky, I am sure you can relate that one man having to put up with several women on their periods at the same time is no easy task.
I'm still not an easy catch. Take a number, pal! :)
Well they must because they are never done knocking at my door, especially when I am in the middle of my dinner. Luckily for them I am a man of peace. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
And there is the added problem of multiple mother in laws. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
:brickwall: I don't know:Quote:
Originally Posted by jocky
1. Do they ride bicycles even up the steepest mountain?:eek2:
2. Are they only a few shades darker than their pefectly ironed
white shirts (that never wrinkle even in extreme heat):flare:
3. Are there always two: one to put his foot in the door jam and
one to mesmerize you with his smile.:nod::nod::nod:
:alien: If you can not answer yes to all three of these questions;
then #1. The Irish have come to your village, in disguise, to
proselytize. or #2. The aliens who are doing the crop circles GPS
went wacky :lol:
:lol: I was thinking, if Atheist wasn't amenable to doing the raincoat gig for my :bday_2:; I might ask jocky...What do you think: Does jocky stand for his employment, his choice of clothing or his reputation with women?:ladysman:Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
Come out with it Jocky, inquiring minds want to know:D
The question does not arise as Atheist will do it like a shot. By inquiring minds do you mean nosy women? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
Soundofmusic you will be delighted to hear that I have publicised your forthcoming bash on the Blokes Thread. It will be great all the guys will be there and will get to meet you and Isidro. Its not a bring your own booze affair is it? :)
:lol: What a time we will all have:ladysman: ..You did tell them to leave their girlfriends (unless their willing to jump out of cakes or dance on the poles...other entertainment will be provided for the gentlemen, so Isidro and I can make our choice), children and religion at the door; Just bring their libido and choice of good Scottish liquor (Not that we're cheap, but Isidro and I both are "in the states" and if those strong Scottish men were exposed to our watered down American beer; they would think it was a dry town.) :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by jocky
I'm thinking there should be an age limit; unless the old fellows have alot of cash and no relatives: rolleyes:
:goof: Hey, you got me all excited and didn't answer: So what is it, boxers or briefs? :lol:
:confused: Do you consider yourself a feminist-mormon? You seem very strong-willed and self sufficient to me. Do you mean that polygamy protected the women from being homeless and penniless or from having their lord and master creep into their room every night. :ladysman:Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
If you log onto www.lds.org or look up "Mormon Messages" on youtube you will easily find how the modern leaders define femininity. I am in essence, a walking example of what they believe a woman should be and how they should behave actually. The leaders constantly put women on a pedestal and encourage them to learn, to stand up for themselves, not to take abuse, to educate themselves and above all to nurture their children and remember they are daughters of a living God.
Polygamy protected female legal rights and allowed them safety so that random "lords and masters" off the street didn't creep into their rooms at night. The women were under no obligation to physically submit to their husbands. It was advised, as it still is, that women be home loving and want to have children and take care of a family and house (which I love doing though you don't often see that side of me here). Women are to be respected and treated like goddesses in every respect.
And one more nod to Mormons. We are the life of the party without having to touch alcohol. Not allowed to drink, which means we are all that and a bag o' chips without having to down vodka to be that way! Hee, hee, hee. (I'm probably going to be thrown out of this discussion now....)
:lol: Why would we throw out our favorite "bag o chips" when you are so intellectually satisfying and don't drink all of our booze. :nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
Aw! Blushing at that compliment! And you can rest assured, I'll never touch your booze. All yours!!!!! :)
:lol: So pleased you're pleased, Isidro! You know we all would be lost without you. :( Do you think Jocky didn't tell me about the briefs or boxers because he runs free? Where's our sweet Atheist, it's just not a party :bday_2: without him!
:crash: While I was enjoying all of our cleverness; a young chaste and celibate lady (or maybe man) told us our segways from religious texts were disgusting. While I have no doubt, in thirty years she will be exactly where we are; I suppose I'll come back to the religious thread a bit:mad
If one wants to believe in the God, Angels and Adam and Eve theory; then God created good and evil. Satan fell before the creation of Adam and Eve; and God was aware of his influence on them.
It is impossible to have free will with a creator who has the ability to see everything we are doing, punish us in excess of our deeds and change the outcome.
I don't believe in hell, because no creation warrants going there (in the christian concept of fire and pain); I don't believe in heaven because the materialism of the place (golden streets) is useless to a spirit; and I would get very bored singing and having no real activity all day. Plus, I'd then be stuck with my two husbands and their 4 wives, 3 mother-in-laws...it would be hell:flare:
What of the plagues against Egypt, done even while 'God hardened pharoah's heart', how is this free will? How is it justifiable also, in terms of a political history, that the Israelites slay and massacre whole towns of people on the orders of this God, while he only offers salvation to the Israelites. Even the Israelites commited many moral faults, and yet they are still given a chance while others are slaughtered outright. I tend to read the Old Testament as a political justification for the actions of the Israelites, written after the fact if in case these acts happened, justified by fear of an unbalanced and tempermental deity. When they ask for food in the desert because they are starving, Moses and God respond in vengeance, they send flaming snakes to to torture his own group (which he's trying to save technically right?)
New Testament problem: According to the Bible, God required the Jews to sacrifice animals to atone for their sins. He then sent Jesus to be the last sacrificial lamb. Meaning, of course, Jesus was a sacrifice to God.
And if Jesus is God in the flesh, then that means Jesus sacrificed himself to himself.
Also, another question, why is Cain even pushed to the point of rage in the first place. What is bad about an offering of grain as opposed to a live animal sacrifice, you can even offer more to God through a harvest than the mass culling of animals couldn't you? It seemed like a perfectly good sacrifice, considering a harvest of grain will usually feed more than a lamb will, so its a bigger sacrifice.
BTW, Im approaching this from the view that the Bible is an exceptionally interesting piece of literature, and nothing else.
The answer to this question I feel is: not if the good god is limited. An omnipotent good god would surely not create a bad world. As Epicurus pointed out:
Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent.
Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?
I'm afraid if we have a bad world, and wish god to exist, then that god would seem to be either impotent or malevolent
Perhaps it is that God is both able and willing but understands as a parent does more than a hysterical infant, the importance of eating one's vegetables, of learning to play nicely with other children, and the like. The fact is when we as humans discuss this we somehow seem to think that God should see exactly as we do and have only in immediate consequences in mind as we often do but if we limit God to that, what is there to worship worth worshiping? We worship God, those of us who do, exactly because God has a broader perspective than we do, has the ability to eventually make wrongs righted and the like. What we see in our one quick snapshot of a perspective as bad may and usually does prove a learning experience in the long run. The Inquisitions were very bad but they inspired various people and groups to move away from the Catholic Church and think more clearly for themselves and throw off the chains of servitude not only in the religious realm but the political, economic and social arenas as well. Define bad, therefore. Anyone who spends any time at the gym knows you get stronger, gain muscle and become a better person by meeting with difficulties and overcoming them. And perhaps God realizes that too.
I am trying to imagine an all-compassionate, all-seeing parent watching on as the concentration camps, the Gulags, the Inquisition, the evils of colonialism rage all around him or her, and the ultimate parent shrugging its shoulders and saying to him or herself, oh well, sure Auschwitz is bad.... but it will reap benefits in that people will become more thoughtful and compassionate towards each other and the same for the Gulag, and oh yes, the Inquisition was really a good thing because it inspired various people and groups to move away from the Catholic church etc etc. Now i'm sorry but I find that rather unpalatable and not in any way an advert for god, morality or religion. You might think it is the ultimate in parenting best practice, however, immediate intervention and a stern talking to might have been better. In fact, I'm not sure which is more disturbing a god that can do this or a group of followers who can think this is somehow not only right and justified, but also compassionate in the long run. How anyone can think that an evil means is justified provided we get a good end is beyond me.
Then there are the problems of natural disasters which the all-loving all-compassionate god allows to devastate indiscriminately, annihilating innocent lives in ways that make Hitler and Stalin appear amateurs (and provide spin doctors to try and make him look good while he's at it)
Isidro, its very easy to say all you have said to an amorphous group such as this forum, but I wonder whether you would be prepared to tell a group of holocaust survivors the same?
Yes. I know. But IF it is the truth, that Satan rules? God gave him that change?
From my point of view; Human i free one now. You can judge, what is wrong or right. For me, it is NOT God´s fault, but human´s. We just choose and this hell is the place that WE created. Not God. There´s no any sense to say that lying, stealing etc. are ok.
From my point, we just should to low our heads, and admit, that our thoughts will NOT rise above out skull.
I speak strictly from my own experience, my dear, which includes abuse as a child, abuse as an adolescent, and marital abuse that caused nearly 850 panic induced seizures and stopped my heart twice while I was pregnant with a second child. It also induced amnesia so I had to relearn to read, write, work and do several other things that most people take for granted. I think I am slightly qualified to discuss pain and suffering with any group and surely many of those who have survived the Holocaust have a broader view than those on an ambiguous forum who have never tasted suffering to a massive degree. I speak of God as someone who has a greater view than us, and I know this for a fact due to a great extent because of what I have gone through. Yes, I would say it to Holocaust survivors but those survivors I have met are the first to try to tell it to me. Pain on a massive scale changes a perspective and I feel fully qualified to discuss it and the divine plan behind it.
Isidoro,
You say you are "fully qualified to discuss [pain on a massive scale] and the divine plan behind it" even though you earlier confess that you are "slightly qualified to discuss pain and suffering", which I find a little confusing. That confusion increases when you say things like "God [is] someone who has a greater view than us, and I know this for a fact due to a great extent because of what I have gone through". I have known atheists who have suffered as much if not more than you, and who say they know through their own experiences that there is no god. Quite honestly, I don't see why pain, no matter how great or intense, should somehow be a window onto truth. What I think it does do, is concentrate our mental and emotional attention towards refining our beliefs and faith. That is very different to knowing facts about god, about the world we live in and about reality per se. Our most painful experiences teach us to question our pre-conceptions. Sometimes it strengthens them, sometimes it reforms them, sometimes it destroys them.
Tell me Isidoro, do you believe that an evil means is justified as long as it leads to a good result?
Is it fair to indiscriminately cause unwanted pain and suffering to millions of unwitting people just so that future generations may learn something? I find that a despicable idea. And almost everyone would find that a despicable idea if a human being put that into practice on a massive scale. Yet some people seem to think that the idea of a god putting this into practice is morally justifiable. Swap a human being for a god and somehow the morality of it all changes. Yet I cannot help but feel towards a multitude that thinks god is justified in behaving like this, as I would about a multitude that backs a dictator doing evil things to teach us a good lesson. Morality, I would hope, isn't so relative that a change in the agent somehow changes the morality of the act.
A very good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma