I do not really find Jack unlikeable, really I am neutral to most of the characters none of them really comeplled me either good or bad. Though Anne Stanton was my least favorite
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I do not really find Jack unlikeable, really I am neutral to most of the characters none of them really comeplled me either good or bad. Though Anne Stanton was my least favorite
Well, for a big part of the book you do not really see whether Jack thinks what happens is good or bad. He also seems neutral on it all - just being "the Idealist", standing back and observe...
I can not tell you which character I liked best ... They all fitted into the story. As for "who would you like to meet in real life", I guess the Boss and Jack could learn me something. I do not think I would listen to them though - I think it's better to read it in a book :lol: I am not sure I like Jack, I guess I do in the fact that I think he has an interesting view at the world. Yes, I think I like him.
The least likeable? I am very neutral on Anne Stanton I guess, can't say I like her but she seems the right girl at the right time. Maybe Tom (the son) or Mr. Duffy. I wouldn't like to run into either of them.
Jack's view are interesting, and perhaps it is just a narrator bias so to speak that well I like him the most if I had to pick.
The reason I dislike Ann is becasue while I do not agree with the desisions that many of the others chars make, the other chars are just who they are, they do not make pretensees for themselves. Anne on the other hand wants to look down upon the rest of them and act high and mighty. She thinks she is so noble, but when it comes down to it she really is just a ho.
I understand what you mean: I was wondering about that too. If, for example, I would like Jack if the story was told from the Boss's point of view. Probably not. :redface:
And I am not finished yet. I recall what happens in the end, but need to read it thoroughly to be sure. I guess everybody keeps up appearances one way or another - just that most of them admit it in Jacks presence.
You tell'em girlfriend!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
:p
OK, done - I couldn't stand not knowing the end so I put some things of to finish this book :lol:
I can not say I think Anne to be using her body. It is odd though that she claims to have loved Willie and then finally, finally settles with Jack :confused: Not sure why that happened... maybe just convenience... I am not sure either whether she thinks she's noble. I know Jack says he thinks her to be, or Sadie says the way he talks about her makes her seem that way... We never do get a good look into anybodies head but Jacks.
I like how, when you read this book, you see how everything you do has consequences. Not only for yourself, but for everyone around you - even for people who are not around you.
Knowing the facts might give you power, but with knowing the truth and telling the truth comes a responsibility. It's not just the happenings, it's also how much you tell about it that brings the following happenings. :)
Live life, don't stand on the side and observe - that will proof to be impossible. At least it was for Jack.
I think she ended up with Jack just becasue Willie endded up dead. And while I do not think she was using her body per sae. She has no right to judge Jack and look down on him when she is sleeping with a married man who already has another mistress. She no longer has the right to act as if she is nobel or to act as if she is better then anybody else. She is an aocmplice in an affair. She sure throws her high-mindeness out the window when it comes to Lucy.
What I do not like about her, is she is a hypocrite. Willie is a womanizer but he does not act as it he is on some great moral highground compared to everyone else.
Finally finished reading.
I think Jack and Anne ended up together because they *had to*. They were the only ones who were left from that group and also they were supposed to be together years ago if they had not messed it up... but then again, they both had some growing up to do, I guess.
In my opinionn, the book is about politics only on the surface. There is a lot on about class division, invisible and unbreakable barriers and personal development than politics.
I find many parallels between this book and Gatsby. In both books, there is an attempt by someone who is from "wrong side of the tracks" to become "better" than what he is meant to be. They try to break the barriers; in some ways they manage to do that but neither of them is properly accepted and acknowledged. And they both end up dead.
In both books, we get a view of the morals of different classes and none of them casts a pleasant view, which is not surprising because we are all humanbeings.
Regarding Willie being singled out... I think he was singled out mostly because of his background and also simply because he wanted to do things differently (not necessarily because they were bad).
Just some quick thoughts but I have to say I have enjoyed the book more than I expected.
Well, I'm reading the Great Gatsby now and I am not far enough yet to tell about class - but it does seem to have the same perspective. I mean, the person telling the story is not the "main" character as in Nick/Jake vs. Gatsby/Willie. And well, Nick doesn't seem too troubled to come along with Tom to see his mistress, while thus being unfaithful to his niece :( He does get drunk though and is a bit sarcastic about it all...
It is definitely an interesting comparison.
And Dark Muse, where is it that Anne seems to think herself so noble? For I can not put my finger on it - when does she act like she's so much better than everybody else?
The way in which she looks down upon Jack for working for Willie. She does not want to be with Jack becasue of what he does, and yet she always wants him to fix her problems for her. She gets all snooty with Jack for digging up dirt upon the judge but then she sleeps with a married man.
She acts all horrified when she finds out that the judge and her father were corrupt, and she always birades Jack for how he talks about his parents.
Thank you for explaining :)
I guess her being snooty about that did not impress me much, it must have slipped my mind :brickwall I do remember she did not want Jack to do it, but after all he did not really wanted it either - but for his search for truth, hoping with all his might it would not be true.
And yes, I do not think she is in any position to judge. Especially as she asks Jack to use stuff he found on her father on her brother. I actually think that is more horrid of her than her snootiness, she knows it will destroy her brothers ideas but asks him to do it so he will become a doctor director. I am still not sure why she wants him so much to be so... Maybe out of snootiness? Or is it really that she cares for her brother and wants him to have a good solid job? Or is it just for appearances?
I am not sure, not sure at all...
Yes I thought that was a bit strange. Adam seemed content in his own way with what he was doing and would have been perfectly happy if he had just been left completely alone.
I also found it a bit ironic that she tells Jack she dosen't care about the money, she never cared about that, and yet she refuses to be with him becaue he does not have a solid idea of what he wants to do for work. She ends up with Willie Stark and she manipulates her brother into getting a cushy job. Yet she does not care about money.
That does not quite fit.
That depends. After all, Willie is not all about money. She might just have fallen in love with him for whatever reason a woman falls in love with a man. After all, she claims towards Jack that she knows Willie better than him, thus seemingly being emotionally involved. If she was just after money, she could have married any rich guy - wasn't one of her fiancées quite wealthy?
And for Adam and that job: I do not know why. Maybe she does not care about money herself, but does want to see her brother safe and sound. Seeing how he now is being taken advantage of by people who know he is the doctor that does not charge, she might want him into that position because she knows he will still be able "to do good" but in a more controlled manner. That does not quite fit either, but I really doubt whether it is only for money...
And her opinion about Jack not knowing what to do with his life. It might be she dislikes his lack of ambition? The fact that he has no drive in life? Willie certainly has that...
And yet, Jack is not good enough for her to be with, but everytime she turns around Jack has to come to her rescue for something or other.
A part of me wanted Jack and Sadie to end up together. After he went out West I was hoping when he came back he would leave Anne to fend for herself from whee on out, but he still kept being her crutch and then shoved aside when he fullfilled his usefullness to her.
Well, Jack was living outside of Time, wasn't he? Maybe she just waited for him to step back into history/present?
Though I do admit - I did not want him to come back to Anne and your idea of Sadie sounds quite appealing :) Though Jack wouldn't have been successful enough for her, she was quite the career girl ;) They would have been an interesting pair. Anne was just always running to him for help... clinging to him almost. She did not even tell him she was with Willie!
I kept hoping that Sadie would have finally had enough of Willie and Jack would finally realize there was no he and Anne and they would end up turning to each other.
Yes it is true that Jack did live very much in the past and he did not relate much to the present/future. Of course this reflects in his once dedication to the study of history, as well as the fact he seems unable to relate to Adam or Anne in anyway but through his memories of the life they use to have together.
Breaking away from the Anne debate. One of the things that interested me more in this story than the characters or the plot was the undercurrent of the idea of a sort of predestination which ran through the story. The little side-debates Jack had regarding religion. And the concept that was conveyed nothing could have happened any differently than it did. The choice of the characters was undercut in a way.
Willie once says to Jack that the reason why Jack is working for him is not because of the money or because he loves Willie, but simply because he is Jack. And Jack reflects the same about Willie, making a comment about how Willie does what he does just because he is Willie. This idea is mentioned throughout with all the characters in various different ways.
I think in a way it is for this reason that both Sadie and Anne end up with Willie. They are with him simply becasue they are who they are and Willie is Willie.
Yeah, "it is because it is and because the persons are who they are". I like that thought, and I think it's quite amazing how the writer can get away with that, without putting some thought of "destiny" in it. Though you do feel it has to go wrong with Willie, and somehow you could feel it had to be Tom who caused it... or catalysed it.
Coming to think of it, the father/son proves to be quite a big theme, with Tom/Willie, Adam/hisDad and Judge/Jack.
And Scheherazade, I just finished the Great Gatsby and I got another resemblance, or maybe rather a contradiction. As All the Kings Men ends with telling us not to focus on the past and live in Time, the Great Gatsby tells us we dream of a better future while the current draws us back into the past (and it is the past which is real and defines us). Or that is how I read it :)
And what is really striking is that both football players are called TOM!
The thing that never really made since to me is just how Jack came to be Willie's right hand man as it were. It seemed that they only had one breif encounter with each other before Willie decided to hire him and made him instantly a confidaunt of his.
Well, Wilie never really needed a big reason. I mean, just the fact that a bartender does not serve him beer but soda made him allow that man a license...
Maybe he saw Jack was in need of some money, heard something good about him and decided to try him for the job to see what happened? Not sure what to do yet, but just seeing a familiar face from the past. Willie did not strike me as a guy who had kept a lot of friends. It is not too clear why he asked Sugarboy either.
But indeed, a thorough reason is not given. Maybe it's just all about first impressions ;) .
Well we do not really see much past history on where Sugarboy came from but he is clearly the most loyal to Willie of the rest of them.
It just seemed odd that Jack would be given such a high posistion on so little, though perhaps it goes back to the "predestination" maybe Willie just know the kind of person Jack was, and that Jack couldn't do anything else but work for Willie.
Yeah, trying to find the part where Willie asks him to work for him. I think there was something there but I can not remember... hold on ;)
OK, I can not find the exact spot, but might it be the fact that Jack reported "the truth" in his column in the Chronicle? And that Willie heard one way or an other that Jack got fired or fired himself because he did not want to write in favour of MacMurfee? For Willie that could be enough of a reason to hire Jack and see where it went?! I mean, Jack did grow into his job - it wasn't at all defined... Though he did start of with quite a salary, $300 or such? Do not remember exactly...
Yes I remember that Willie apporached Jack when he found out that Jack had lost his job. That could have been enough for someone like Willie to take him on. The fact that Jack did take a stance and did not just go along with what he was told.
I cannot recall how much he made, but I do remember in the begining Willie did not have an offical posistion for him. I recall there was some remark Willie made about paying Jack and just figuring out something for him to do.
Ok, I did find the right part, in my book it's page 108 - the end of chapter 2. It's indeed Willie who asks for Jack and who mentions having heard that he got fired (to which Jack replies he quit). It's indeed $300 he offers, and Jack mentioning to Willie that is quite a lot of money, as "This Governorship doesn't pay but five thousand". And as for the jobSo that's not a real answer, but it was probably a combination of Jack having known Willie from before he was a Governor and followed him a bit in his uprising, always writing straight columns in the newspaper... Something like that. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack asks what he's supposed to do, to which Willie answers
And well, somewhere in the beginning of the book Jack also states that reasons are often made up afterwards, while at the moment things just happen ;) And looking back at stuff, other reasons might turn up. It would be nice to hear his ideas on his employment, but I do not think that is gonna happen :lol:
Reasons do not seem to matter very much within the book. They are shoved aside. Just like with Sadie and Anne, there is seen no development on how either of them got involved with Willie or why, it just springs up out of nowhere.
There is really no indication that either of them have become involved with Willie, well other than Anne had lunch with Willie once which she tells Jack about. But they both just happen out of the blue for the reader.
Yes, but isn't that what often happens in real life? I mean, do we ever find out all that is behind it? After all, it's written from Jack's perspective and he never tried or never did do find out.
From Sadie it is being said however, that she is used to get what she wants and knows how to get it. Jack really makes a point to show she'll always be OK, no matter what - he won't have to look after her as she can perfectly take care of herself. And somehow I read, maybe between the lines, that she does so partly by getting involved with mighty men. But that might just be my imagination, as I also thought Anne might be with Willie to convince him to choose Adam as director - until she confessed she really loved the Boss...
And even if they would have those reasons, it would still not explain why Willie gave into the adultery or how these relationships develop...
While I never really disliked Jack I think Adam was really the only "worthy" character within the book. What happend to Tom was tragic for Lucy but I did not really care when he died.
And when the whole thing went down with Adam and Willie I sort of rejoiced when I found out that Willie got shot, not nessciarly becasue I truly disliked Willie even but becasue after Adam got shot there was a moment when Jack thought that the boss did not get it, and I just felt like oh no, don't tell me Adam got killed for no reason. I was going to be so dissapointed if Adam got killed but Wille was left perfectly fine.
Do you guys think that Adam's death was symbolic?
He was the only half-decent, likeable character in the book but he had to get killed in such a way.
It could have been symbolic in a way. Though Warren does not strike me as a highly symbolic writer.
Based upon the notions of pre-destination, I would say that there was no other possible outcome for Adam. He was too "noble" to surivie in the world of Willie Stark.
Hmm... Adam never struck me as likeable. A dreamer and a nutty professor maybe, but not more or less likeable than the other characters. And I understand from his nature that he had to act the way he had, but to just take a strangers word about your sister sleeping with your boss and assuming it was all to get you into a better position. That is not very decent in my eyes. Killing Willie seems like some kind of blood-vengeance or family honour thing going on. He does not even confront Willie about it, he just shakes his hand and shoots!
I do not see the killing of Adam (which is in some way defensive: a bodyguard takes down the shooter) as a symbolic way to show that nobleness is not possible in Stark's world. I think that is much better betrayed by the fact that Stark does his best to keep the hospital "clean", even putting Adam in charge while he knows the guy hates his guts. He does not succeed though, and has to give the order to Duffy - something he never wanted as he wanted to be known for good deeds, he's quite passionate about his hospital.
Jack makes Adam's death interwined with Willie's death in a way that I do not really understand. He seems so convinced that he and Anne brought the two together and brought them to their final destination. I really think he's trying to make too much out of destiny, seeing connections that aren't there. Though one might say that Adam's values collided with Willie's values (or at least the way they used those values in their business) and it was destined that there would be firework...
But it is true that Jack brought them together. He was the connecting link between Willie and the Standons, he brought them into Willie's world, or Willie into thier world. It was learning of the corruption of the judge and her father which drove Anne to Willie and than it was Anne who pushed Jack into making Adam accept the posistion even as she knew that Adam would be devestated if he ever learned the truth about what she was doing.
Maybe Adam knew his sister well enough to know that it would be true, and he did confront her about it when he found out the news, and she could not deny it. I was glad the finally someone stood up to Anne and shattered her dillusion of herself instead of keep propeing her up on the pedestol as Jack alwyas does.
...and after nearly 100 pages, I am sort of flabbergasted. I'm reading the novel for a class I'm taking, and since the novel is always pegged as being political, I picked it up with some hesitation. I'm a political junkie, yes, but politics has always been something I've tried to keep out of my personal readings. The two can intermingle well, but I've read enough Zinn and Chomsky on the side to have my political cravings satisfied. I don't need novels preaching to me.
So far, Warren has completely shocked me with his lyrical style. Sometimes the prose comes off as a little dense, but not to the point where it is slowing me down by any means. There's so much complexity to both Jack and Willie already, that I am in no way surprised at the novel's thickness.
What are some of your thoughts on this novel? Have you read a work of literature that is classified as being overtly political, despite it consisting of much more deep and thought-provoking themes?
at least 30 years. I remember the general plot, but not all the nuances. For some reason(s) editors were hesitant to do any drastic editing to this book. I remember it as being overlong with some very boring parts. A good editing would have made it int0 a more readable book,
I've seen both movies and prefer the one with Broderick Crawford for which he won the Best Actor Oscar. The movie was much faster paced than the book. The movie with Sean Penn was not as good, although I admire Penn's acting generally, I watched the DVD because Tony Soprano was in it (I forget his acting non de plume). Much fatter and balder than he was in the Sopranos.