That makes sense. Thanks.
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That makes sense. Thanks.
Pot calling the kettle black, eh? Now if you only listened to the advice you give others the discussion would advance.Quote:
Originally Posted by PabloQ
Just in case others missed it, I want to let them know what you said about those who didn't follow the thread according to Pablo.
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Originally Posted by pablo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pable
From what I've read of yours, Pablo, Treasure Island is a good reading level for you, yes.
I think the criteria for these discussions boards includes one having a penchant for banter, and I think we all meet this requirement.
I agree that Moby Dick was the definitive 19th century novel. What a visionary Melville was to write a book of such great depth!
Back then Melville was laughed at. Critics said his writing was the most stupid book ever written. Today the book is acknowledged by many as the USA's greatest writing.
Imagine what a daring thing it was for someone to portray a black man such as Queequeg forging a brotherhood with a white man like Ishmael. An integrated church in segregated New England presided over by a black preacher in Father Mapple. Mapple was a fictional character based on Edward Thompson Taylor who preached in integrated churches -- very unusual for that era.
The color white is usually portrayed to this day as representing good, purity, or cleanliness. In Moby Dick it is portrayed as being the embodiment of evil (the whale is white; see also Chapter XLII where several examples are given which display white as evil). Critics of that era viewed that as blasphemy!
There is so much to that book that one could write an encyclopedia just to analyze it. What a writing!
^^^Queequeg wasn't black as I recall. The way Melville described him, he sounded more like a kind of Mayan/Aztec or some type of South American tribe. Maybe African but not black. Dagoo was a black harpooner and I doubt Melville intended for two of the three to be of the same ethnicity.
But yeah, Moby-Dick is so deep and has so many interpretations. Its really brilliant.
Queequeg was south pacific; Tashtego was native-american, Daggoo was African; Fedallah was Parsi. I don't recall Father Mapple being black. Perhaps I'm not recalling correctly but I don't think you're right about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
Interesting about the black/white color scheme in reference to the racial issues of the time. I have never seen that in any criticism. I also don't really see racial themes inside the novel, but i guess one can make the argument. Melville has a very universal cast of characters, certainly by intention.
The most exciting part of that book was when Queequeg and Ishmael were in bed together, except they didn't do anything, much to my 13 year old self's chagrin.
I argue that Gatsby and Of Mice and Men are, because the first is about living the American dream, and the second is about yearning for it. If you don't have an interest in America, you lose something from reading them.
What about Lolita? Yeah, it's not American, but it's about Europe vs. America...
Winesburg, Ohio by Anderson comes to mind. To this day it can describe life in small town America.
''Queequeg was not black ... he was south Pacific''
The narrative describes him as a south Pacific 'savage' who had a ''bald purplish head''. You may recall the old story of the so called ''purple people eaters'' and this should help illustrate his skin tone. As for other south Pacifics, consider these:
http://www.as.edu.au/current_happeni...an_culture.jpg
Father Mapple is described as having ''large brown hands'' [p 51] and a ''swarthy forehead''[p 56]. To the people of that era, Mapple and Pacific islanders would have been called black rather than brown because they were not as racially sensitive as we are today.
Still, the idea of a black/brown man as brother to white man was astonishing to people of that time. This was a reason why the book was so hated by those critics.
see MB, Riverside Edition, 1956
Moby Dick is very very boring
an american tragedy, what else. lol
The point of Queequeg is the exotic nature of his character, that he is a cannibal, or at least was. I think it does suggest a universal friendship across cultures. But it does not really suggest (at least to me) the specific racial issues of negro slaves in America. I think the character of Pip, the little black boy, may suggest that. As to Father Mapple, I have found no one who refers to him as a black man. Those details you point out can mean anything and if Melville wanted to make a black/white theme with his character he would have been more explicit.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
am glad to hear other people bashing (rightfully so) moby dick besides me! the only other book ive read that comes close to being as disappointing was catcher in the rye (thank you lokasenna).
i like semi-fly's question but id like to go a bit earlier and id have to put forth something by james fenimore cooper---the pathfinder, or last of the mohicans.
Having read this entire thread I must as this question. CAN the " Great American Novel" be quantified?
It rather depends upon the era one selects from and ones individual criteria does it not? It's likewise dependent upon what given tome "hits the nerve" and resonates resoundingly within ones soul.
For some of us who came of age in the '60s and '70s it may well be from the beat generation writers and those influenced by them ,Kesey comes to mind as does "Bible" of the Beats i.e. " On The Road" ( of course already mentioned) , but there's much more to Kerouac that just that pivotal volume.
For a certain body of readers it may well be the three by Steinbeck mentioned within this thread , but once again there's much more to his body of work than Of Mice and Men , The Grapes of Wrath and East of Eden.
Likewise with Fitzgerald or Faulkner , Hemingway and myriad and sundry other writers.
For some it may well be a "road book" such as On The Road , or William Least Heat Moons " Blue Highways" or Steinbecks " Travels With Charlie".
For some it may well be something of contemporary nature such as " The World According To Garp , Heller's " Catch 22" or The Milagro Beanfield War by Nichols or any given Tom Robbins novel , some may vote for certain Mailer volumes , some for Studs Terkel , some for Capote , some for James Baldwin.
There are a thousand and one candidates , but personally I'd be thoroughly unable to pick a sole volume as the definitive 'great American novel"......
And I for sure wouldn't pick Moby Dick , my bias against Melville is well known and quite longstanding.
As regards Fitzgerald , don't miss Tender Is The Night , The Beautiful and The Damned and This Side of Paradise.
Faulkner? Light in August was good but Absalom, Absolom and The Sound and The Fury and his last work The Reivers were easily it's equal.
And for southern writers , how can we forget Tennessee Williams , Robert Penn Warren, Flannery O'Connor , Eudora Welty and Twain?
The original question is highly subject to individual likes/dislikes and interpretation and thus unquantifiable.
B.
I must play advocate to ye landsmen...
I understand some people don't like Moby-Dick because its long and it has those slow, philosophical chapters. But those same people won't mind those great 600 page Russian novels with the expansive plot. If you focus on the plot of Moby Dick, however, you are missing Melville's purpose.
Half of the novel is not there arbitrarily; to compare a Right Whale's head and a Sperm Whale's head; or to ponder the history of "white." Its there to first off, give you more background information on the book you're reading and second, it lets you think about the subtleties of Moby Dick. The reason its a great piece of literature is because it can be interpreted in so many different ways and your interpretation of it is key to understanding it.
''Those details you point out can mean anything and if Melville wanted to make a black/white theme with his character he would have been more explicit.''
As was pointed out by another poster here, you cannot get more explicit than by having two guys sharing the same bed (this, after declaring their brotherhood for life).
;)
And Ishmael WATCHES Queequeg get undressed. Isn't that a bit pervy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1jt
If Gatsby died with Stock Market Crash of 1929, how come that between 1941 - 1949 there were 17 reprints of the book and it is still being reprinted today? Your off-hand reference to it as "a fun story" is refuted by many of those who have written introductions to those reprints; such as Ruth Prigozy;Professor and former Chair of English at Hofstra University,Hempstead, New York. Her introduction shows how such influences as Keats, T.S.Eliot, Spengler etc. are embedded in the novel and that, "The Great Gatsby is an original novel that traces through the history of one shadowy man the history,hopes,dreams, and fate of a nation and ultimately leads us to consider a human quest that lies beyond geographical, even earthly boundaries."
Prof. Prigozy concludes her introduction with: "Surely that image of the individual pursuing his destiny, however, is the greatness of Gatsby, and perhaps of us all."
I think it's clear from the general tone of jon1jt's post that he was being dismissive of Gatsby rather than complimentary. I would agree with you that a novel should be enjoyed as a story and not just as an intellectual exercise.Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph90ie
Here is something I posted on a fortmer thread:
[QUOTE=Brian Bean;671315] When I read a book, I expect to be informed AND ENTERTAINED,but a host of 'GREAT' writers featured on this forum fail miserably in the entertainment stakes. One of the few writers who combines intellectual insight with an entertaining story is Scott Fitzgerald whose Tender is the Night I am currently reading. If I were to name the writers that I think boring, I would be thought to be an utter philistine but my literary interests cover French and German writers in their original language. I have no time for writers whose works flounder in the kind of intellectual obscurantism that gives them an importance that registers with a comparatively narrow stratum of the intelligently literate population.[/QUOTE
However, there is a clear difference between pulp fiction and writing that both entertains and informs the reader.
As for Prof. Prigozy, I found her introduction to The Great Gatsby very informative and exceptionally enjoyable; I can recommend it as a fun read.
Well, it wasn't jolly.
Tom Sawyer hands down. Anybody care to argue with me I'll zap your butt into oblivion. Because, we do exist.:alien:
Zap away, ET. To date in this thread, we've cast off great American authors whose works are regional and less representative of the entire of the nation as a whole. Tom Sawyer falls into that category. Beyond being representative of Twain's Missouri/Mississippi River writings, TS isn't even the best offering in that regard. Huck Finn is far better.Quote:
Originally Posted by ihavebrownhaira
The original post ask what is THE Amercan Novel and offerd Moby-Dick for discussion. For the sake of this discussion, I don't feel that Twain wrote anything better than Moby-Dick. Moby-Dick is a great novel with strong themes written by an American, but it's themes seem universal and not particularly American. That's what I jokingly refer to as Ye Ol' Rat Hole. I don't argue that any one work doesn't qualify as great. I argue that the novel doesn't capture an essence that is specifically and particularly American. And to qualify as THE American novel it needs to capture the diversity and grandeur of this nation.
I personally find this version of this topic (I've seen at least 3 other attempts flounder and die) interesting. I have a new list of novels (The Great Gatsby, On The Road, My Antonia, and Moby-Dick) to read to see if any one of them alters my opinion that Dos Passos' USA (a single story written in trilogy) captures the essence of Americain novel form.
I do know it isn't Tom Sawyer. Fine book. Not it.
How about I bring this more up to contemporary times. I would include Truman Capote's In Cold Blood as a Great American novel. It's almost epic in scope and it revolutionizes the mixing of fact and fiction into the novel art form.
Well that question is very easy. The American novel is The Grapes of Wrath. It shows all the sides of the American people and contains an epic movement across the country. It's hard for me to think of one more American.
The U.S.A. trilogy by John Dos Passos should also be mentioned, although I haven't finished reading it yet and can't really talk about it. It is quite excellent though.
The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald, As I Lay Dying by William Faulkner, and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain are all great American novels. However, I believe that this topic can be argued forever seeing as it is all based on opinions. I really don't think there is a definitive American novelist.
I just read The Sun Also Rises by Hemingway. It is not the answer to this question. THE American novel needs to have an American theme. Its a nationalist question that I think is focused on the nation rather than the novelist. The US has produced some great novelists (as have other countries) and those novelists have generated some great novels. Hemingway is certainly a great American author, but TSAR doesn't have an American theme to be found. Expatriate Americans living in Paris and going to the bullfighting fiesta in Pamplona does not capture any theme that is intrinsically American. It's one of the reasons I dismiss Henry James' works from consideration.
Virgil, interesting offering In Cold Blood. The difficulty I have with that one is it's almost non-fiction. Capote was diligent in getting all of the facts right and his narrative is truly chilling. I read this book over 30 years ago and I still remember that image of one of the murderers chewing aspirin out of the bottle. I'll update this thread as I work my through the other candidates for THE American novel.
Well, In Cold Blood is a breakthrough in fiction if you ask me. The blurring of fact and fiction.Quote:
Originally Posted by PabloQ
Nonetheless i think I disagree with you about The Sun Also Rises. The American themes are imbedded. For instance the contrast on the theme of morality from an American versuses a European point of view. There eare many contrasts to be made. Even the sense of freedom between the various characters.
The great American novel has to be On The Road. Forget Gatsby, no one does the American journey like Kerouac. He develops the diaspora between the East and West while exemplifying the haunted life. Not that I don't love The Great Gatsby but Kerouac put it all together in a way that meant much more to me.
We have to think- could an aurthor of any other nationality write the story and it would still work? It would be a monstrosity to have had an American author write Brideshead Revisited.
I would agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by book_jones
Kelby, even the most Gung Ho American writer would have steered well clear of Brideshead Revisited, but Evelyn Waugh's novel The Loved One, of which I have just read, through fits of laughter, the synopsis on Wikipedia, is pobably a more accurate depiction of the American commercialisation of death than any American could write. Being a recent convert to Waugh, I will make a special point of reading The Loved One.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
Good point. Novels are all linked indellibly to an author's time and place. You know I would consider Brideshead the great British novel. (Among other of course.)Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
Let's hear it for Henry James! So many wonderful novels and short stories intimately showing the American experience and thought life. He helped establish respect for the American author to a degree few have matched. Whether the story is entrenched in American life and place (eg. Washington Square), or showing how Americans carried their prejudices with them to Europe (eg. The Ambassadors), James never left the American nature of his characters fail to show through. No matter that just before the end of his life he defected to the mother land...
Hmmm... well the only American novel I really liked was On the Road. In fact I thought it was pretty brilliant, it even influenced me to pack my bags at the end of last year and travel around Australia...
So which novel do you pick? No doubt James is a great American author, but that's not the question. I have difficulty accepting that any of James' works qualify as the American novel and I'd have to see a pretty sound argument to convince me. The James novels I've read seem to treat Americans and American themes from a distance. I'm not sure that the American novel can take place in France or England or any other distant place. That's why I'm more likely to accept Gatsby or The Grapes of Wrath or even On The Road as a potential answer to the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grim
I've spent a lot of time of late reading through American novels and I have a long list in front of me. I'm open to any argument that gives me a basis to understand why a particular work qualifies as THE American novel. I don't buy anything by James as the answer.
I had to read In Cold Blood in high school a gazillion years ago and back then you had to go to the nonfiction section of the library to find it.Quote:
Well, In Cold Blood is a breakthrough in fiction if you ask me. The blurring of fact and fiction.
I couldn't pick one, as I think several books are equally important for depicting different aspects of American society. But my list would include Huckleberry Finn, The Great Gatsby, On the Road, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Colour Purple.
Although not novels, I would want to mention Walden and In Cold Blood as two great American books. However, I know In Cold Blood is arguably a novel.
Also, a novel I would like to include, that maybe doesn't appear often on such a list, is Fahrenheit 451. Although it doesn't depict an actual America, I think it depicts an important aspect of an American mindset.
So would I, and you have just inspired a new thread. xQuote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
How important do you think masculinity is in American Literature?
The Catcher In The Rye, Huck Finn or The Great Gatsby
in my humble opinion
Took me a couple of reads to truly appreciate The Catcher In The Rye. I feel it sums up Americans best. Spoiled whiny/angsty/scared teenagers. :)
It was important to Hemmingway, but not to Truman Capote.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake