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The Brothers Karamazov has a habit of taking everything to the next level, and deepening even the most seemingly arbitrary events. It is an absolute work of genius. While my favorite novel will probably always be Crime and Punishment, The Brothers Karamazov is a more philosophical piece of literature.
I trust you read him in Russian, right? If not, then you cannot comment on his sloppiness, as you are reading an interpretation, while somewhat of a consensus agrees that his prose improves somewhat in translation. The greatest prose writer of his time, I would argue, in terms of language, would have to be Turgenev, from what I understand of Russian critical consensus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
Ok..sorry?
What for? You are entitled to your opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
Dostoyevski get's a lot of credit, undo credit I think, for being so philosophical with his novels. As I told my Russian literature class in college, "If you want a viable philosophy, read the philosophers. Don't read novelists. That's not their strength and it's not their job." Personally, I think that Hemingway is just as philosophical as Dostoyevski or Sartre, but his philosophy doesn't wear it's intellect on it's sleeve. It's very understated like the rest of his writing. What Dostoyevski does is "Look at me!" writing "Oh, I'm making a big point here!" writing, very labored, very obvious, dare I say an artless kind of writing. Stoicism has it's roots in a world nearly two thousand years old. Existentialism is novel. I will not say contemporary because Stoicism is still very much with us. Existentialism is novel in the way that Postmodernism is novel, in that it is new, it is impractical, it is strange, and retains the charm of things which can be put to almost no practical use. It appeals to youths and frivolous people, those who fancy themselves as artists and minds, those poor deluded "creative souls."Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
People who are drawn to Dostoyevski's writing are often drawn to his philosophy for many of the same reasons. It's big, unwieldy, complicated and strange. They cannot handle the subtleties of conventional morality, or conventional art, and so are always seeking after the exotic. They must have big novels, gigantic things that press upon the reader their importance, or they are not impressed. They must have melodrama and murders to titillate them; or and this is also true, they must have no action at all. The intemperate live in one extreme or another because ambiguity and moderation are too much for them. I do not find it strange at all that the same people who love Dostoyevski should also love Joyce, and Proust. They praise gibberish and run on sentences. They make a cult of the weird and unwieldy. But I guess that is a discussion for another time.
Mortal I have repeatedly said something very similar about people who insist on ideas, whether philosophical or political or cultural, in their literature or art in general. "If the writer was striving to communicate ideas he would have written an essay. But he didn't. He created a work of art."Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
That said, I still think Dostoyevski is a great writer.
Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm "anti," mophead. We could discuss Kerouac but I doubt you have anything you can tell me that I don't already know about him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopey Droney
Oh you don't insult me, you just need to open your eyes because this thread is considering whether Anna Karenina is a great or sucky novel. I voted it worst novel.
@Mortalterror:
I don't believe Dostoevsky has ever been artless. I think that philosophy is more effective in prose than it is in direct essay writing, as one may see the philosophy acted out. Sure, his characters are unrealistic, but they're archetypes. You may say Dostoevsky was showing off, but knowing his history and the kind of man he was said to be, I doubt this highly. Dostoevsky's philosophy is actually very basic, not big, unwieldy or strange in any manner. It goes to the very root of the human psyche and isn't afraid to show the true colors of its subjects. You are entitled to your opinion, of course. But the fact is that his philosophy isn't strange, it's very universal and simple, only never presented in the way Dostoevsky presents it, because it seems that a lot of it may be embarrassing to humanity.
I thought it was very funny that anyone would ever ask such a question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Sorry if I thought your indictment of the spittle-lipped sheep who happen to sometimes like established old works was a self-congratulatory punk rock position, beret.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1jt
I don't care what your or anyone else's opinion of Anna is enough to insult someone. I just thought it was interesting to say "I don't mean to insult you but" followed by your insulting him.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1jt
I don't think it's true that you can't judge the sloppiness of prose in translation. Sentence-size and simplicity of thought are there or not. The neatness and modesty of the writer's mind are there or not there, regardless of translation.
If style didn't translate, then there'd by something boringly similar about all translation; but, to the contrary, they are as alive and individual as books in one's own language.
Dostoyevsky is wonderful, but anyone can see that his writing is very mixed in quality. I don't need to know Russian to see that he's very fond of superlatives and over-excitement, and often repetition. But then, I wouldn't change this; he may never have arrived at his best words and thoughts by any other route. Criticizing the best books is like criticizing a human being: something very begrudging about it.
Not.
Next question.
I really like this book, and i suggest that you must read it, I think 'Anna Karenina' has a very good plotQuote:
Originally Posted by evening_read
and wonderful characterization. I am sure you will enjoy it.
:)
Er...undue credit...Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
You taught literature?
Where this whole thing about Anna Karenina being the greatest novel of all time was when there was a survey taken from 125 writers, and through what they ranked in their top 10, Anna Karenina appeared the most and highest.
I thought Anna Karenina was a terrific novel along with The Death of Ivan Ilyich. I had planned on reading Wuthering Heights very soon, so since I heard good news about it here, I think I definitely will pick it up.
While Anna Karenin enchanted me up to the flat ending, Wuthering Heights was overwhelmingly powerful and convincing.
He wouldn't teach a Russian Lit. class if he didn't like Dostoevskii.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
Dostoevsky thought that Anna Karenina was long winded and lacked substance actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by evening_read
Why not? Apparently he did just that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
The novel promises so much yet delivers so little.Quote:
Originally Posted by wat??
Really? Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gladys
I had expected Tolstoy’s would return to wavering Karenin, honest Vronsky, or at least to the unpredictable Kitty, rather than end with the born again egotist, Levin. Anna's change in personality from Jekyll to Hide seems implausible unless one blames the opium.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
My point was that I'd expect a teacher of literature to be able to spell 'undue'.
Call me old-fashioned.
I think that the best novel ever writeen by Tolstoy is 'War and Peace'. I like this author, but I prefer Dostoevsky.Quote:
Originally Posted by evening_read
However for me the best novel is 'Master and Margarita'.
For every one there is his or her own best, for one it is a comix, for other it is 'Crime and Punishment'
Definitely a loose baggy monster. I think it's popularity is that it's attractive to many people. A fun read on the surface -- a soap opera really. I wonder what Oprah's readers got out of it last year? But there's so much depth to it. Dark at times -- though nowhere near Dostoyevsky. A social commentary on the times. Marvelously fleshed out real, flawed characters. Every time Oblonsky appeared, I wanted to jump into the pages and eat and converse with him. I could have done without the ending -- most of the stuff after "THE SCENE". The title leads one to believe that it should end at that point. But the parallel story of Levin is concluded and used by Tolstoy to show his views. I guess he's entitled to it. However, it was done well and much less preachy than the ending of Sinclair's Jungle, where he preached and rambled on about the virtues of socialism.
I know my post is a little late, but I actually just finished readng 'Anna Karenina' last week and must say that although it is an excellent piece of literature, I am unsure as whether it could be classified as the 'most valuable book ever'.
In retrospect it would probably actually have to be a religious text that would fall under the 'most important' header, but as far as just books you MUST read before dying, I would vote for something by Nabokov or Henry Miller even. But in all honesty I think that to choose one book as the most important would be very difficult if not impossible. Every book has its own values, errors and lessons to offer.
yet read it! If you haven't already by now :)
I can agree with the first part - the details of Russian farm council politics were definitely skim-worthy at best. Reminded me of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, where you could skip two pages of species names.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1jt
But the scything section is actually called out in the new book The Elegance of the Hedgehog, and I agree with that author that this is a wonderful bit of writing. I sometimes lose myself in moments of effort (or if I'm very lucky, guitar playing) and these are some of the best moments of my life. Levin thought the water he drank from the sharpening box, complete with rust and grass clippings, some of the best water he ever had. And that struck me.
The other thing I admire about this book is the capturing of the chaos of internal thoughts. And in fact Levin struggling with trying to understand (or even give a fig) about the aforementioned council politics made those parts almost enjoyable.
Lots of really great discussion in this thread.
While I'm not extremely well versed in classic literature (and that automatically limits and lessens the value of my opinion), War & Peace is the best I've read. It's one those works of art that seems to contain the whole of humanity within itself. Every major, minor, relevant, and irrelevant theme ever related to mankind. It's so incredibly inclusive, so gorgeously written, simple and at the same time complex, a mammoth book full of small moments and small people, a book about grand, macro themes expressed through the smallest events, a book that can evoke the most elaborate metaphors or the most simplest poetry in a few words.
So I'd say W&P, but that may definitely change the more I read.
I wouldn't call it the best novel of all time but without a doubt it has to be top 10. The main reason I felt that the novel isn't the best is because Tolstoy would go into such precise details for parts of the text that didn't require that much lenghty description. None the less I liked it a lot but the best novel of all time in my opinion has got to be "Crime and Punishment" it's just one of those works that changes your view on life.
Well,
You probably never heard of one Willem Elsschot? He's assumed to be one of the greatest (and if not the greatest) Belgian writer. (You probably never heard of one Belgium too? ; ) ) If you find the novel "Het dwaallicht" (translated as: "Will o' the Wisp") in one of your libraries, certainly take a moment to read this one. It's only about 56pages, so it won't take you long, but you'll enjoy from the first word to the last. It's enjoyable in its simplicity, it's a masterwork in its simplicity, and that is that. Nothing more left to say about this one.
Just finished Anna Karenina yesterday, after having it sit under my pillow for about a year, so I thought I'd try to add a bit to this very old discussion.
Anna Karenina is a terribly mundane story, with horrid characters that one must struggle to connect with or care about...but Tolstoy makes us care. He makes us care quite a lot, in fact. Even when one is bored to tears by Levin's farm...and Levin's farm is discussed at great length without ever being interesting...Tolstoy will find a way to hook them back in. I didn't make it very far through War and Peace, and I've never read Pushkin, I also preferred Crime and Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov; but I would definitely say that Anna Karenina has a legitimate claim to the title of "Best Novel Ever."
Isn't that what Henry James called War and Peace?Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
I think even people who love the novel will admit that they found the agricultural passages tedious at times, but we're not familiar with that type of life- of course we'd find them boring, just as most people find the architecture passages in The Hunchback of Notre Dame boring.
Personally I love the novel and I became attached to pretty much all the characters. Of course most people expect the Anna/Vronsky affair to be the vast majority of the novel because that's the juicy stuff but I think the Lenin passages provide a nice contrast. As a study of adultery, Anna Karenina is brilliant, and it definitely has a claim to greatness.
So...? I think "exoticism" is part of art's draw in general. I think people seek out what might be described as 'culture' to 'awaken' themselves from the mundane nature of daily life on most Western societies. So I just don't see how seeking out Proust or Dostoevsky for the reasons you describe is necessarily a bad thing. Are you can accuse people of seeking out the 'exotic' when they take a trip to Colombia or Morocco or wherever? Your attitude just seems like rank and file anti-snob snobbery, if only here, as I'm sure you're an intelligent guy in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
I don't think Eugene Onegin classifies as a novel; it is narrative poetry. Also, I read a list from Time magazine which took a survey of American writers to ask what is the greatest book of literature of all time. Here is the list:
http://content.time.com/time/arts/ar...578073,00.html