Richard II - Act II

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I think this squares the conflict face to face for the first time: it's the King's right of power versuses the justice of Bolingbroke's cause.

And in scene III, York meets up with Bolingbroke and asks him why he has violated his banishment agreement.

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Yeah, this is a key moment. We've known for a while now that there was going to be a confrontation and that we would have to ask ourselves who should rule, but Bolingbroke's landing is the event that finally forces the issue. York, though, seems to unload this responsibility. He quickly gives in because he doesn't think his decision would change matters any.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Bolingbroke rationalizes that he comes not as Duke of Hereford, in which title he was banished, but that since his father's death he is now Duke of Lancaster (the title has changed) and he comes in that name and the banishment does not apply. That is the legal maneuvering, but really he is coming to claim his father's property from which the King has attempted to appropriate.

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"Maneuvering" is a good way to put it. Henry is twisting the letter of law in order to evade the spirit of the law.

Of course, the entire discussion is a polite cover for the reality of the situaion: Bolingbroke is taking the castle by force. Quibbling over the legality of Bolingbroke's return seems besides the point when he has an overwhelming army. This scene reminds me of the opening of the play when Richard is condemning someone for a crime that he, himself, had a hand in. No one bothers to raise objections because he's in power. Similarly, when Henry has control he tries to gloss over his own crimes.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

"I see thy glory as a shooting star/fall to the base earth from the firmament." That line characterizes Richard's fall. It's sort of mythological, connected to the heavens and the gods. Richard is etherial, from the sky, incapable of dealing with the base earthly realities. He went to conquor Ireland for the glory of the heavens, but he neglected his immediate realities. Bolingbroke does not think of the heavens; he thinks of the earth.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I think that Richard is more an elevated type king injoying his own magnificence and pomp but not seeing past his own countenence to the common people. Where Richard's view is narrow, Bollingbroke's view is much broader. He sees the whole picture. Richard can hardly see beyond the court.

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I think you're right about the difference between Richard and Bolingbroke. One is rather enterprising, and the other is absorbed in his own thoughts.

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Originally Posted by MissScarlett

The fault, I think lies in the characters and our lack of involvement with them. We can't really empathize with any of them - Richard or Bolingbroke - so we aren't emotionally involved.

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The question of sympathies has been raised a few times, and I don't know if we've come to any conclusions yet. You're right that we really can't empathize with either of the kings throughout the play. Each of them commit crimes. Both characters' personality are hard to empathize with. Richard is self-absorbed, and Henry is self-righteous. Richard's theft is pretty galling, but Henry's craftiness seems kind of untrustworthy. I would say, though, that there are situation where I find myself sympathizing with one character or another. When Richard banishes Bolingbroke and confiscates his property, I think Henry is the more sympathetic character. But, when Richard is stabbed at the conclusion, the former king seems more sympathetic. I would say that neither character is able to sustain our empathy, but each has his moments.

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Originally Posted by MissScarlett

I just joined in, so please take my comments for what they're worth.

I agree with the poster who said the play is filled with gorgeous poetry. I think this is one of Shakespeare's most lyrical plays. In fact, Harold Bloom called it one of a trilogy of lyrical plays, the other two being Romeo and Juliet and A Midsummer Night's Dream. In fact, I think Bloom called it an extended metaphysical lyric.

While I love the gorgeous poetry of the play, I do find the play uneven. The fault, I think lies in the characters and our lack of involvement with them. We can't really empathize with any of them - Richard or Bolingbroke - so we aren't emotionally involved.

I think Richard would have been a great poet had his subject matter been something other than himself and his own dilemmas and problems. He's so focused on himself he loses sight of the bigger picture and what makes poetry truly great. However, the last three acts, I think, are dependent on the gorgeousness of the language, much of it Richard's.

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Welcome to the discussion Miss Scarlett and welcome to lit net. You make some good points. I guess you guys (Janine, Quark, and now you) have convinced me that the play is a notch below Shakespeare's great ones, but don't forget this is a history play. And frankly as Quark points out later, we do gain greater and greater empathy for Richard as the play moves along. He was a terrible King, but did he have to die? Unfortunately I'm afraid the answer will be yes. But we'll get to that.

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Originally Posted by Quark

When Richard banishes Bolingbroke and confiscates his property, I think Henry is the more sympathetic character. But, when Richard is stabbed at the conclusion, the former king seems more sympathetic. I would say that neither character is able to sustain our empathy, but each has his moments.

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Yes that is a good observation. I feel that way too. We also gain greater sympathy for Richard through his language. The lyricism of it endears us to him, but it also shows he is not constituted to be king.

Well, I'll be on Act III tomorrow.

I agree with all three of you, though the gorgeousness of the poetry causes me not to place the play below Shakespeares' others. I think it's just different.

Our sympathies do sway back and forth from Richard to Bolingbroke, I think, but I agree, there's no one we can really latch on to, no outcome to really hope for. For this reason, I find I'm a little bored with this play from time to time, too. I do think it picks up in Act III.

I need to read the play again, too.

I will answer more later in here but for now, where is Act III; I have hunted for it before but can't seem to find it anywhere. Does a thread even exist dedicated to Act III?

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Originally Posted by MissScarlett

I agree with all three of you, though the gorgeousness of the poetry causes me not to place the play below Shakespeares' others. I think it's just different.

Our sympathies do sway back and forth from Richard to Bolingbroke, I think, but I agree, there's no one we can really latch on to, no outcome to really hope for. For this reason, I find I'm a little bored with this play from time to time, too. I do think it picks up in Act III.

I need to read the play again, too.

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Scarlett, my opionion is much closer to yours than to that of the other two.

Janine, I'll send you the link, but really all you have to do is go to the Shakespeare Discussion Group forum.

Thank you, Virgil. We'll be discussing Act III tonight? I'll go read it again.